Confirmed USA Teams for 2014

[Fatwing15]

Spinners post does a good job of explaining the thought process. At least gives us a good idea of why there are still 2 leagues.

If the leagues merged today, the UsARL teams would hold a 10-7 voting advantage if you include the new SE teams. Not sure if that factored into anything.

Also, after a 50/50 merger was decidided against, All clubs were given the invite to join the USARL, wonder if the AMNRL clubs were approached individually as opposed to as a group. I can kind of understand how an individual club would be reluctant to jump ship on its own.

Still stinks, but hey, at least we have the 9s tourney with an open invite. Hopefully that will bring a lot of these teams together.

 

[PacificCoastRL]

I certainly see the USARL's point. They are doing a heck of a lot more than the AMNRL to grow the sport of rugby league in the United States re: youth development, officials development, etc. So I wonder if the AMNRL is going to follow the USARL's lead in these categories. Past performance would say no. So I'll ask this question of both sides. Would any of the AMNRL teams be able to pass muster to enter the USARL? Only knowing what I read, I would say maybe two of the teams would meet the criteria, (the Knights and Dragons seem to have the most professional presence) but maybe I'm wrong. Somebody fill me in if you disagree.

 

[Fighter]

Spinners post does a good job of explaining the thought process. At least gives us a good idea of why there are still 2 leagues.

If the leagues merged today, the UsARL teams would hold a 10-7 voting advantage if you include the new SE teams. Not sure if that factored into anything.

Also, after a 50/50 merger was decidided against, All clubs were given the invite to join the USARL, wonder if the AMNRL clubs were approached individually as opposed to as a group. I can kind of understand how an individual club would be reluctant to jump ship on its own.

Still stinks, but hey, at least we have the 9s tourney with an open invite. Hopefully that will bring a lot of these teams together.

We approached all the teams as a group with the open invite. We also contacted guys we still knew on the other side at each club and made sure they knew we had extended it. Not everything is shared with everyone.

You aren't thinking the right way with your 10-7 analogy, we wouldn't be against each other if we had merged/unified, it would be a large democratic group, not us vs. them.

 

[Evil Homer]

Spinner, stubbornness probs not the best word. But has the USARL thought about how to secure the national team and RLIF membership if the AMNRL continues to exist?

Evil Homer, you're a f**king idiot who consistently doesn't read others' comments properly and then jumps on their high horse and shuts down people's opinions.

I never said they were equal. I have always said the amnrl is a shambolic organisation. But the amnrl does have the national team. I said they hold something the usarl wants. The usarl doesn't hold all the cards. The usarl have all of the cards except the Ace.

What are you talking about? :lol:

This is a discussion about the future of the sport at a domestic level. The AMNRL has nothing to offer the USARL in that respect, period. As Spinner says, it would be stupid for any USARL clubs to give up their democratic voting structures and compromise on everything else that they have built in favor of a less effective system, it would be a needless step backwards. And it would be even worse if they were forced to do that because the AMNRL supposedly 'control' the national team (which as far as I can tell is actually controlled by some guy in Australia) and were using that as a bargaining tool. Which I haven't seen any evidence for this being the case BTW apart from in your posts.

The USARL have the structure in place, all that is needed is for the AMNRL clubs to join it and I really can't see any barriers stopping that apart from that the AMNRL clubs are clearly still unwilling to be part of a competently-run organization.

 

[Rodney]

This is a discussion about the future of the sport at a domestic level. The AMNRL has nothing to offer the USARL in that respect, period.

But the proposed merger was the whole USARL and AMNRL coming together, with all of their rights and powers.
While the AMNRL has little to offer compared to the USARL as a domestic body, it does have the intangible asset of national team selection and set the precedent that only AMNRL (excluding USARL) players could play for the USA during the world cup.
Being recognized as the national body also gives access to plenty of privileges (providing the RLIF obligations are fulfilled) which a body like the USARL seem like they'd strive to achieve.
Grants and support would be very much appreciated.

These benefits don't drag the AMNRL up to equality, but they are bargaining chips they could use to sway things.

 

[Evil Homer]

But the proposed merger was the whole USARL and AMNRL coming together, with all of their rights and powers.
While the AMNRL has little to offer compared to the USARL as a domestic body, it does have the intangible asset of national team selection and set the precedent that only AMNRL (excluding USARL) players could play for the USA during the world cup.
Being recognized as the national body also gives access to plenty of privileges (providing the RLIF obligations are fulfilled) which a body like the USARL seem like they'd strive to achieve.
Grants and support would be very much appreciated.

These benefits don't drag the AMNRL up to equality, but they are bargaining chips they could use to sway things.

That isn't a good thing though, and nor is it what should be happening. In fact it's pretty much just low-level bribery.

AFAIK, if the AMNRL teams joined the USARL then they would have the exact same rights as all the existing USARL teams so there wouldn't be an issue with any 'rights and powers'. It's seemingly just that people within the AMNRL don't want to do the right thing and operate professionally. Which is fine, but don't then claim to be the official body for the sport in that country if you're only interested in being a park league. Desperately clinging onto power achieves nothing for the sport at all, and TBH is fairly pathetic.

 

[deal.with.it]

You've done it again Evil Homer.

You mustn't actually read what others post. Only enough to form a new argument against no one.

No one on here is saying that the AMNRL and USARL are equal.

I'm not sure we even have any pro AMNRL fans on here anymore.

But you are wrong that the AMNRL don't hold any bargaining chips. They do. As Rodney says, they hold the intangible asset of national team selection.

If you read what I actually have posted, maybe you'll be able to extend your thought process and take on what I have posted.

 

[deal.with.it]

I don't think its necessarily a case of the USARL thinking they hold all the cards, I think they just realise that the route they're taking is one of most beneficial for the game moving ahead in the US.

I give my opinion coming from a position of neutrality, I have no stakehold in any US club or body but why would the USARL merge with an association that has been somewhat a basketcase in the last few years and have shown a great lack of transparency or direction and still has the whole Grand Prix/Tatham ownership cloud hanging over them? There has still not been one reply about the current state of ownership of the AMNRL, surely there is soemone reading these threads that has an idea of what the situation is?

And that is what is mind boggling.

Ryan McGough has stated quite appropriately that it isn't the RLIF's job as such to sort out the domestic mess.

What I don't understand is why AMNRL clubs would want to play in the AMNRL, under an organisation they don't know enough about. It's strange.

 

[Evil Homer]

You've done it again Evil Homer.

You mustn't actually read what others post. Only enough to form a new argument against no one.

No one on here is saying that the AMNRL and USARL are equal.

I'm not sure we even have any pro AMNRL fans on here anymore.

But you are wrong that the AMNRL don't hold any bargaining chips. They do. As Rodney says, they hold the intangible asset of national team selection.

If you read what I actually have posted, maybe you'll be able to extend your thought process and take on what I have posted.

I don't know what you think I'm writing but I've replied quite clearly to both yours and Rodney's posts.

 

[byrner]

I don't know what you think I'm writing but I've replied quite clearly to both yours and Rodney's posts.

I think it comes down to the fact that you are an angry little dick who cant see a situation from a neutral viewpoint. The teams in the AMNRL have just as much right to refuse the USARLs offer to join as the USARL teams have to vote against a merger.

Just because you have an uninformed bias perception of something, does not mean you are correct.

 

[Evil Homer]

I think it comes down to the fact that you are an angry little dick who cant see a situation from a neutral viewpoint. The teams in the AMNRL have just as much right to refuse the USARLs offer to join as the USARL teams have to vote against a merger.

Just because you have an uninformed bias perception of something, does not mean you are correct.

:lol:

My entire position on this is neutral, I have no affiliation to either side, I have no investment either way. The AMNRL can do whatever they want, I don't care, just don't claim to be the official governing body and 'control' the national team if all you want to do is run a park footy comp. It's as simple as that really.

 

[deal.with.it]

You just don't read everything properly.

And even when people post a new thought, or new information or try and give you insight into the situation, you're just stuck in your opinion and you won't listen to anyone else.

And then when someone posts something logical, you seem to bypass the key point and keep harping on about the AMNRL's incompetence and try and form a divide between yourself and other posters.

It's just tiring.

 

[Evil Homer]

You just don't read everything properly.

And even when people post a new thought, or new information or try and give you insight into the situation, you're just stuck in your opinion and you won't listen to anyone else.

And then when someone posts something logical, you seem to bypass the key point and keep harping on about the AMNRL's incompetence and try and form a divide between yourself and other posters.

It's just tiring.

I've read everything properly, if you're upset by what I've written or can't formulate any response it's probably because this is a pretty black-and-white issue. Attempting to make things personal or take away from my credibility as a poster because you can't come up with anything else to say is so played out at this point, are you Roopy?

If you have any actual arguments with the posts I've made on this thread or any other then go ahead, state them and I'll reply. If not then good, we agree. But don't start trying to put words into my mouth, change the subject or just completely make up things that I haven't said like these AMNRL guys do, it's boring.

 

[deal.with.it]

But thats the thing (as i just stated).
Myself, and others, post arguments and you disregard them.
Whats the point?

I have told this forum things that they werent aware of.

You ignore the main points.

I say that the amnrl holds the national team selection and rlif sanctioning. I ask how the usarl will combat that issue.
You say again and again that the amnrl holds no bargaining power whatsoever and should just join the usarl. Thats simply not true.

As far as assets go (or should i say ASSETS) the amnrl is the one who got their brand out there during the world cup.

 

[Rodney]

AMNRL teams probably don't want to abandon the potential for their players to be selected for the national squad.
While the AMNRL isn't as big or strong as the USARL it isn't a completely inept league and teams are up to a reasonable standard.
Unless the USARL really starts to break away from the AMNRL is standards, numbers of teams and support I doubt clubs will cross over it probably just doesn't seem worth it at the moment.

 

[gyallop]

come on guys go easy on Evil Homer its a hard and thankless job always being right but some one has to do it otherwise there might actually be a robust debate with ideas shared and knowledge gained!!

 

[byrner]

:lol:

My entire position on this is neutral, I have no affiliation to either side, I have no investment either way. The AMNRL can do whatever they want, I don't care, just don't claim to be the official governing body and 'control' the national team if all you want to do is run a park footy comp. It's as simple as that really.

You may not have an affiliation, or have an actual investment, but your position is far from neutral.
You have a clear bias to one party over the other, and can not even contemplate the fact that these situations are not cut and dry.

Even Spinner, Fighter, RIR (et al.) are less bias than you, and they are living in the situation with skin in the game.

That 'control' of the national team is what others were refering to with regards to the AMNRL having some bargaining power. But you couldn't get past your ridiculous hatred for that body to accept that they still have something the USARL want.

I dont think there is a person left on this forum who actually thinks the USARL are not the future of RL in the US. However unlike you, the majority of people still show respect for the people who make up the AMNRL, and can see both sides to the argument.

I have said before that I love your passion for the international game, but stop being so negative about the people (and thats what they are, 'people') who are over there working as volunteers, doing the leg work on the ground spreading our game.

 

[PacificCoastRL]

Well Homer, for what it's worth - I think you're right about all of this. And your just stating your opinion. Some people have problems with that, when it doesn't jibe with theirs. But I guess, like the people on the ground with the AMNRL, they feel they are doing what's best, so can't see the mistakes they are making. But that's the way it is in today's politically correct world - everybody is doing everything right, except the people who are raising concerns, they're just s&#t disturbers.

 

[Evil Homer]

But thats the thing (as i just stated).
Myself, and others, post arguments and you disregard them.
Whats the point?

I have told this forum things that they werent aware of.

You ignore the main points.

I say that the amnrl holds the national team selection and rlif sanctioning. I ask how the usarl will combat that issue.
You say again and again that the amnrl holds no bargaining power whatsoever and should just join the usarl. Thats simply not true.

As far as assets go (or should i say ASSETS) the amnrl is the one who got their brand out there during the world cup.

As I already explained, I don't think the national team is a bargaining factor. Firstly, does anyone know who actually runs the national team? It seemingly isn't David Niu or Vassy anymore, and I doubt it's Curtis Cunz given that he was left out of the squad last year, so who is it and why does this person apparently hold so much influence over the domestic league? Why does this person apparently not want the leagues to reunite? Is there any reason that this person couldn't continue to run the national team if all the clubs played in the same league? It's just not really a factor as far as I'm concerned, or at least it shouldn't be if people are acting in good faith.

If the AMNRL want to use the national team as a bargaining chip and a reason that the USARL should compromise on their morals and adopt a less effective system then that isn't a good thing, that isn't what should be happening. It's in the best interests of everyone for the AMNRL clubs to join the USARL league as it exists now. AFAIK the USARL has a fair, democratic system, so if the AMNRL are trying to use the national team to gain additional, undeserved power over the USARL clubs then that isn't right. I don't know if that is actually the case BTW, I'm just going off your posts here.

As for the RLIF recognition, what is the point in continuing to claim recognition if you don't want to put in the work to back it up and there are other people that do? Again, if the AMNRL want to run their own league then that's fine and nobody is questioning their right to do that, but continuing to claim RLIF recognition when they are clearly not the major body is just needlessly holding the sport back. If they had the best interests of the game at heart then that is something that wouldn't happen, which is why I criticize them.

You may not have an affiliation, or have an actual investment, but your position is far from neutral.
You have a clear bias to one party over the other, and can not even contemplate the fact that these situations are not cut and dry.

Even Spinner, Fighter, RIR (et al.) are less bias than you, and they are living in the situation with skin in the game.

That 'control' of the national team is what others were refering to with regards to the AMNRL having some bargaining power. But you couldn't get past your ridiculous hatred for that body to accept that they still have something the USARL want.

I dont think there is a person left on this forum who actually thinks the USARL are not the future of RL in the US. However unlike you, the majority of people still show respect for the people who make up the AMNRL, and can see both sides to the argument.

I have said before that I love your passion for the international game, but stop being so negative about the people (and thats what they are, 'people') who are over there working as volunteers, doing the leg work on the ground spreading our game.

I don't 'hate' anyone. You've admitted yourself that the AMNRL is not the future, so why are they continuing to be a road-block for development by trying to cling onto power? They can run their own league, that's fine, that's great, but if they don't want to do things properly and there is another group that do want to and are capable of doing so then there's no justification for the the AMNRL continuing to claim that they are the major governing body in the country. They should either join up with the USARL (which would be the best solution for everyone), or continue to run their own league but hand over the RLIF recognition to the USARL, which as you've said yourself is clearly the more capable organization. I don't have anything against anyone, I just want people to do the right thing.

 

[deal.with.it]

I agree that the amnrl's tomahawks selection criteria is a shambles. The NY knights telling s johnson to piss off.

But you must understand for teams in the amnrl, not the actual amnrl executive, must feel like at the end of the day RL is amateur in the US. Constitutions, marketing plans, flash websites etc mean very little.

To clubs like those in the usarl they mean a lot. They are trying to run the sport and their clubs like a business.

But to amnrl clubs, do they actually want what assets the usarl has? Can they be bothered? Do they just want to run an amateur club like a muck around game of touch footy down the local park?

If RL wants to get serious in the USA it needs the usarl approach.

But i'd say for a lot of amnrl clubs that because they cant see the intangible assets, they're not really interested. They feel like they have stronger teams on the park vs usarl's strength off it.

I wish the usarl held the NGB status, but they dont.