Cronulla to Perth

[The Great Dane]

The Canberra Raiders would be relocated to Perth before the Cronulla-Sutherland Sharks.

I don't think that any team should be relocated anywhere, so you can put your noose away as there's no lynching necessary cause we agree that (outside of extraordinary circumstances) there shouldn't be any relocation...

 

[The Great Dane]

Regardless of his cherry picking ,which is also your expertise,he has had more experience in rugby league than you or I put together.He was also involved in the Australian Sports Commission.He was also a coach of Western suburbs Magpies before I'd suggest you ebbed in on these WA shores and a coach of the Dragons.And you somehow know more than he.

That's one hell of an argument from authority!

Nobody would deny that he has had a very successful career or question his experience, but that experience doesn't necessarily mean that he is right or that he has the faintest clue about the subjects at hand...

And in 1994 there was no SL wars much for selective cherry picking.Pot v kettle.And who won the G/F in 2005 ....you fill in the blanks .
Yeah let's ignore the current period 2018,I mean it has zero bearing sheesh.

LOL, the point PR was making went right over your head didn't it!

 

[Fat Tony Kandos]

I don't think that any team should be relocated anywhere, so you can put your noose away as there's no lynching necessary cause we agree that (outside of extraordinary circumstances) there shouldn't be any relocation...

Naturally.

 

[taipan]

Crowds go up and down. Who’d have thought it? He cherry picked crowd stats to suit his argument, it’s easily done as I’ve just shown to counter argue his point. The cold hard indisputable fact is there are more people watching the game on tv and attending games than before the mergers and Bears removal.

He’s got a great history in the game but his superficial use of cherry picked attendances is lazy journalism and does not stack up when you look at the bigger trend of attendances and tv viewing of the nrl. And that’s without throwing in the argument about a more general decline in sports attendances across all codes in Australia in the last decade.

The other Reality is west’s tigers are far more likely to be long term sustainable than either Balmain or magpies standing alone and melbourne offer a great deal more than ns bears.

Will the nrl decide it has the confidence to expand with more teams added? will it be brave enough to relocate or drop clubs if it wants a stronger national footprint without more mouths to feed? Will it continue to procrastinate and sit on its hands for another decade? I guess we will hopefully know by this time next year.

What a simplification.Sydney's population has increased dramatically since the days of non JVs.
We are in 2018 the JV crowds have not increased against their original seperate identities.
You cherry picked by ignoring 2018,the most recent, reliable stats.,

The cold hard facts are Bear's fans did not jump in any numbers to other NRL clubs, ditto JV clubs' fans, and finally you have zero idea as to the attitude of Shark's fans rusted on and casual should they lose their team.But it's pretty evident they would follow the Bear's approach.

The cold hard disputable fact is TV viewing has not kept pace with population growth ,yes less so than other sports, but FTA has taken a hit and Fox has shown an increase.


I didn't state the West Tigers would not be sustainable.I actually stated any JV club with continuing dwindling numbers would not be sustainable long term.That then begs the question would the NRL underpin that or other clubs, when it has stated ,no go Joe.

The last para ,we'll apparently have to wait 12 month to find out.I have NFI ATM on that question.

 

[Perth Red]

They may not have increased attendance as a joint venture but nor have they decreased by any significant amount statistically speaking over a few years avg’s. What they have done is reduce two running costs Into one whilst maintaining the same fanbase level of the two clubs, meaning they are more likely to be far more sustainable.

No Sydney nrl club has increased its attendance rate in comparison to population growth, it’s not just an issue of the joint ventures. What they haven’t done 8s lost any significant amount of the fanbase in the mergers, suggesting mergers might be a better option than relocations or dropping down a level for some clubs if we have to rationalise Sydney further tomallow for expansion?

If you except that the top tier of nrl can only host a finite amount of clubs then you would have to say dropping ns bears to allow room for someone like the Storm was a good move and overall has strengthened the nrl, sucks for bears fans but as Spock said sometimes the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

 

[siv]

I think you should look at crowd averages say 20 years ago eg 1998 and compare it to 2018

 

[taipan]

They may not have increased attendance as a joint venture but nor have they decreased by any significant amount statistically speaking over a few years avg’s. What they have done is reduce two running costs Into one whilst maintaining the same fanbase level of the two clubs, meaning they are more likely to be far more sustainable.

No Sydney nrl club has increased its attendance rate in comparison to population growth, it’s not just an issue of the joint ventures. What they haven’t done 8s lost any significant amount of the fanbase in the mergers, suggesting mergers might be a better option than relocations or dropping down a level for some clubs if we have to rationalise Sydney further tomallow for expansion?

If you except that the top tier of nrl can only host a finite amount of clubs then you would have to say dropping ns bears to allow room for someone like the Storm was a good move and overall has strengthened the nrl, sucks for bears fans but as Spock said sometimes the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

Sydney's population in 1995 was 3.819m
in 2018 over 5m.
Now I don't have to be Einstein to suggest removal of clubs, joint ventures have solved comparative crowd growth, simply because it's not there.
IOW despite rationalisation Sydney has struggled growth wise for crowds, hence the assumption that further relocation or JVs will assist crowd growth has more holes in it, than the Titanic.

I don't accept the NRL can host an inordinate number of clubs.I do accept the NRL can host at least 18 clubs now.And so as to cream your jeans, that includes Perth.
Storm was a good move,t he Bears IMO should have been domiciled on the CC with about 4 games at NSO.
Well the needs off the many haven't grown.A point which you are quite happy to bring up about NRL crowds falling, all the time.

 

[Perth Red]

Sydney's population in 1995 was 3.819m
in 2018 over 5m.
Now I don't have to be Einstein to suggest removal of clubs, joint ventures have solved comparative crowd growth, simply because it's not there.
IOW despite rationalisation Sydney has struggled growth wise for crowds, hence the assumption that further relocation or JVs will assist crowd growth has more holes in it, than the Titanic.

I don't accept the NRL can host an inordinate number of clubs.I do accept the NRL can host at least 18 clubs now.And so as to cream your jeans, that includes Perth.
Storm was a good move,t he Bears IMO should have been domiciled on the CC with about 4 games at NSO.
Well the needs off the many haven't grown.A point which you are quite happy to bring up about NRL crowds falling, all the time.

The avg crowd in 1995 was 13,918 the avg crowd in 2018 was 15,260. Clear growth per game played. Of course removal reduces fans of that club, but if like the bears they are replaced with clubs with bigger fanbases then there is no overall loss to the game. Finite resources mean tough decisions sometimes.
The joint mergers have not lost any significant number of fans to the game.
The game overall has struggled crowd growth wise, it’s got little to do with mergers or rationalisation and a lot more to do with crap kick off times, expensive tickets and poor stadia plus arguably over staturation of the competition in one market whilst other potentially bigger markets have been ignored.

 

[taipan]

The avg crowd in 1995 was 13,918 the avg crowd in 2018 was 15,260. Clear growth per game played. Of course removal reduces fans of that club, but if like the bears they are replaced with clubs with bigger fanbases then there is no overall loss to the game. Finite resources mean tough decisions sometimes.
The joint mergers have not lost any significant number of fans to the game.
The game overall has struggled crowd growth wise, it’s got little to do with mergers or rationalisation and a lot more to do with crap kick off times, expensive tickets and poor stadia plus arguably over staturation of the competition in one market whilst other potentially bigger markets have been ignored.

1995 pre SL.next.20 teams.
1995 first year of expansion with records crowds at the opening games across the country.
The joint ventures in real growth areas such as the Campbelltown, Illawarra region stuff that theory.
It's got to do with mergers, scheduling,venues,Foxtel and team performance..A mix of the lot.
You're brilliant in past posts you have bitched about poor Sydney crowds, then you say but it's up and down and the JVs and chopping have little to do with it.
Maybe you should speak to people at the time ,these decisions were made ,then executed.
I thought you may be an armchair general ,who hasn't faced battle, now I'm convinced.

It's got nothing to do with your constant whining, for which we should be eternally grateful.

 

[Perth Red]

“An arm chair general who hasn’t fought battles” lol grow up.

In 1995 the 4 merged clubs all had crowds under 10k, hardly going great guns! Balmain avg’d 6k Lol

The real tragedy is you had nq avg 21.6k, knights 21.2k, nz 26.4k, SQ 21k, Perth 13.4k
Of the 11 Sydney clubs only 4 had more than a 10k avg.

The harsh reality is half the 16 clubs we’ve got now can’t seemto makes ends meet, even with a massive nrl cash injection, you really think the likes of balmain and Illawarra would be going strong? At least the mergers seem to have helped preserve their nrl presence in some form.

 

[taipan]

“An arm chair general who hasn’t fought battles” lol grow up.

In 1995 the 4 merged clubs all had crowds under 10k, hardly going great guns! Balmain avg’d 6k Lol

The real tragedy is you had nq avg 21.6k, knights 21.2k, nz 26.4k, SQ 21k, Perth 13.4k
Of the 11 Sydney clubs only 4 had more than a 10k avg.

The harsh reality is half the 16 clubs we’ve got now can’t seemto makes ends meet, even with a massive nrl cash injection, you really think the likes of balmain and Illawarra would be going strong? At least the mergers seem to have helped preserve their nrl presence in some form.

You've been in this country for a few minutes ,thus you apparently know all the ins and outs of Sydney clubs and their fans' attitudes.Hence the armchair general analogy.You reap what you sow.

In 1995 before SL really went into effect in 96/97 the following :
Brisbane (heartland)home average 95 35,902 2018 31,234(even with suncorp)
Canberra home average 15,683 2018 11,862
NZ Warriors home average 26,450 2018 17,376
Newcastle (heartland) home average 21,215 2018 18,974
Nth Qld home average 21,670 2018 15,417
Qld Crushers home average 21,029 N/A

The novelty of the 4 new teams in the comp made a big impact for the above.The first round attracted around 200,000.
One team towns here all dropped.Another aspect .
What this suggest people like novelty, people like success, and you can bet your bippi they don't like relocation or removal.,and respond accordingly.


1995
St George home average 9,074
Illawarra home average 9,651
Total average 18,725 2018 JV 16,606 (23 years later)


1995 Balmain home average 6,254
Wests home average 8,556
Total average 14,810 2018 JV 17,291 reason mainly ANZ stadium influence not available in 95.And grounds used prior not up to scratch. Benji and Farah coming back also.

The harsh reality is clubs like Sharks,Manly,Penrith need upgraded stadiums to build on crowds.Jubilee needs more upgrading.As does Campbelltown as does Leichhardt.

If JVs build on crowds they are growing strong, if they keep dropping crowds like stand alone they leave themselves open to non long term sustainability.
If a club deems it necessary to form a joint venture so be it.But it loses its identity ,and understand both Illawarra and Tigers had financial issues.
The AFL tried a joint venture ,and ended up it being knocked on the head.

Therefore any club that has
viable plans to ensure long term sustainability should not be punished.You'd want to be sure Perth fits that criteria.No pokies in WA.

It's pretty obvious one of two things happened with the NRL clubs struggling ,incompetence and /or reliance on Leagues club to get them out of trouble.If that continues no club including the Sharks deserves to be in the NRL.

 

[Perth Red]

1995
St George home average 9,074
Illawarra home average 9,651
Total average 18,725 2018 JV 16,606 (23 years later)


1995 Balmain home average 6,254
Wests home average 8,556
Total average 14,810 2018 JV 17,291 reason mainly ANZ stadium influence not available in 95.And grounds used prior not up to scratch. Benji and Farah coming back also.

Thanks for proving my point, the mergers haven’t lost many, if any, fans and have made the clubs involved more sustainable whilst creating space for expansion.

Maybe rather than relocate Cronulla a merger with roosters is the way to go. Sydney sharks playing out of a brand new allianz with the wealth of the roosters and the jnrs of the sharks.

 

[taipan]

Thanks for proving my point, the mergers haven’t lost many, if any, fans and have made the clubs involved more sustainable whilst creating space for expansion.

Maybe rather than relocate Cronulla a merger with roosters is the way to go. Sydney sharks playing out of a brand new allianz with the wealth of the roosters and the jnrs of the sharks.

Proving your point LOL ,talk about presumptuous.I'm showing exactly why JV s at times are not 100% bullet proof.

BS, the population has increase substantially in that period in Sydney, and any increase that has occurred has not kept pace.

A bit of friendly advice to someone reasonably new to these shores ,compared to ones here for decades.Get your own sh*t together in WA, and make it too good to refuse for the NRL to knock you back.

Because ATM with housing loans on a knife edge, and the huge deficits in many countries and a China filled with uncertainty, if I were someone in WA I would be looking over my shoulder.As shown in the past WA is one of the first states to take the big hit.No pokies to assist.Retail outlets like Katmandu have had an ordinary Christmas and New Year ,which is ominous.

As far as a new Allianz is concerned,I'd be more than happy to attend a game or two there, provided Shark Park gets its slice of the action.
But again having a joint venture with the Roosters will not increase crowds to the extent two separate entities would.Because a fair swag of Shark's supporters will turn their nose up at a JV, especially if it means a Perth entity benefits.
And particularly if an A League franchise for the South decides to use Shark Park.You see the area has the largest number of junior soccer players in the country.

Be careful what you wish for, and have a knowledge of peoples' attitudes here, because judging by your comments ,they are sadly lacking in that department.

 

[Perth Red]

No Sydney clubs crowds (or nrl clubs for that matter except maybe Storm) have increased anything like population growth, it’s unfair to single out the merged clubs. What you have shown is they didn’t lose many, if any fans, by merging. Win!
If the Sydney sharks can keep the majority of 12k shark fans and the 11k roosters fans in the same way dragons and tigers have done then 20k average merged club would be a plus for Sydney RL. State of the art stadium, massive financial security of the roosters, good jnr development base of the sharks, create a room for a new market club or Brisbane2, you know it’s a winner.

 

[taipan]

No Sydney clubs crowds (or nrl clubs for that matter except maybe Storm) have increased anything like population growth, it’s unfair to single out the merged clubs. What you have shown is they didn’t lose many, if any fans, by merging. Win!
If the Sydney sharks can keep the majority of 12k shark fans and the 11k roosters fans in the same way dragons and tigers have done then 20k average merged club would be a plus for Sydney RL. State of the art stadium, massive financial security of the roosters, good jnr development base of the sharks, create a room for a new market club or Brisbane2, you know it’s a winner.

What a load of crock.Merged clubs include strong young, growth areas like Campbelltown and Illawarra, which appears you have not a clue as to their growth.
As such, they are most certainly part of the crowd inclusion for comparison sake.

It's a bit hard to sink in for you, but just like the North's fans, the overwhelming majority of Shark's fans will not follow a relocated nor a merged entity, that plays outside of its home area.
Hence the reason long term, the Sharks want to develop the stadium at their ground.And a s a result having an upgraded ground with more covered seating will increase their home averages.
Bearing in mind.the other major clubs in Sydney to date ,have hardly much bigger crowd averages.

 

[Southern Rooster]

The joint venture clubs may need to start settling into the one home. St George Illawarra at Wollongong and Wests at Leumeah. That helps reduce the Sydney market a bit. Penrith at Penrith. Parts at Parra. Sydney at Moore Park. Cronulla stay put. Souths at whichever venue they choose. I'd be looking at Perth and PNG. There is real potential to grow the game in the Pacific area. There is a lot to like and be positive about with the game at the moment. Internationally it is getting better. The referees issues should.be getting addressed. Expansion will happen whether it is through extra teams in Australia or Internationally within the Pacific.

 

[flippikat]

The joint venture clubs may need to start settling into the one home. St George Illawarra at Wollongong and Wests at Leumeah. That helps reduce the Sydney market a bit. Penrith at Penrith. Parts at Parra. Sydney at Moore Park. Cronulla stay put. Souths at whichever venue they choose.

Precisely. If we're going to keep all the existing Sydney clubs, they need clear home grounds rather than a mish-mash of venues designed to cater for both historical fan-bases, that offers no consistancy.

Panthers at Penrith, Parra at Parra, Roosters at SCG, Sharks at Shark Park, Souths & Bulldogs at ANZ Stadium, Wests at Campbelltown are no-brainers, IMO.

The Dragons have a dilemma - do they go for a big Sydney ground (SCG or ANZ Stadium) with a reduced number of games in the 'Gong - basically confirming the fears that it's a takeover of the Steelers , or throw their lot in with Wollongong as their home venue, confident in their ability to sell "Sydney Memberships" for that fanbase which offer seats at 'away' games against the other Sydney clubs (under a reciprocal ticketing arrangement)?

 

[titoelcolombiano]

Precisely. If we're going to keep all the existing Sydney clubs, they need clear home grounds rather than a mish-mash of venues designed to cater for both historical fan-bases, that offers no consistancy.

Panthers at Penrith, Parra at Parra, Roosters at SCG, Sharks at Shark Park, Souths & Bulldogs at ANZ Stadium, Wests at Campbelltown are no-brainers, IMO.

The Dragons have a dilemma - do they go for a big Sydney ground (SCG or ANZ Stadium) with a reduced number of games in the 'Gong - basically confirming the fears that it's a takeover of the Steelers , or throw their lot in with Wollongong as their home venue, confident in their ability to sell "Sydney Memberships" for that fanbase which offer seats at 'away' games against the other Sydney clubs (under a reciprocal ticketing arrangement)?

I would go:
Manly & Roosters at Allianz
Sharks at Shark Park
Penrith at Pather's Stadium
Eels, Tigers, Bulldogs & Souths at WSS
Dragons at Wollongong with the ANZAC match at Allianz every second year (alternating with the Roosters)

Recipricle rights for all members.

I agree with you that we need solid home grounds for each club and we need to stop trying to please everyone. Pick a ground and stick to it. It doesn't mean that Manly can't still be based at and train at Brooky. It doesn't mean that the Tigers can't be the Campbeltown club, basing their operations there and training there.

 

[flippikat]

I would go:
Manly & Roosters at Allianz
Sharks at Shark Park
Penrith at Pather's Stadium
Eels, Tigers, Bulldogs & Souths at WSS
Dragons at Wollongong with the ANZAC match at Allianz every second year (alternating with the Roosters)

Recipricle rights for all members.

Good point, and if there really is no money for upgrades to Campbelltown & Brookvale, this may be how it happens.

Reciprocal rights needs to happen ASAP for all Sydney clubs.

 

[Perth Red]

Sydney sharks and Souths at allianz
parramatta panthers, bulldogs at wss.
Western Tigers at hbf park perth
Leave manly to die at bookvale and create space for Adelaide
Dragons 7 at gong, 4 at allianz one on road
Sorted.