Dragons chase Jarryd Hayne

[Pilot house]

No you won’t

That retort is in the squad for the post of the year. Nobel laureate stuff.

 

[True_Believer]

Yes you have made that quite clear many times. But for those times that everyone wants to bag Dufty so soon after 1 year in grade and think it will never change I will reply with the balanced positive view for now....

What gets me about people in here is all of the bleating and club blame for not promoting players from ISP. Then they do and they have a less than stellar debut season and it's now get rid of them and buy someone else or promote someone else.

But then it's the coaches fault for not coaching these deficiencies out of them immediately. Hell even Blind Freddy could tell you that Dufty and Field have a size disadvantage and, if they are actually going to make it, it will take longer than a year to comfortably slot into first grade - despite coaching efforts. As I've stated many times, just because they perform in ISP, doesn't mean that always translates directly to NRL. You'll notice the players that translate more easily are those with size. In my opinion, it's been a wise choice to hold a few of these players back a little longer.

Personally I think Dufty did OK for his first year given his deficiencies. He'll grow into the role but he needs more than a year.

 

[possm]

What gets me about people in here is all of the bleating and club blame for not promoting players from ISP. Then they do and they have a less than stellar debut season and it's now get rid of them and buy someone else or promote someone else.

But then it's the coaches fault for not coaching these deficiencies out of them immediately. Hell even Blind Freddy could tell you that Dufty and Field have a size disadvantage and, if they are actually going to make it, it will take longer than a year to comfortably slot into first grade - despite coaching efforts. As I've stated many times, just because they perform in ISP, doesn't mean that always translates directly to NRL. You'll notice the players that translate more easily are those with size. In my opinion, it's been a wise choice to hold a few of these players back a little longer.

Personally I think Dufty did OK for his first year given his deficiencies. He'll grow into the role but he needs more than a year.

I suppose that if you are a person who thinks Dufty did OK in 2018 and you also think that the Dragons did OK in 2018 and you think Mary and his coaching staff did OK in 2018 then such words are understandable.

I believe that SGI should take every measure and use their best efforts to win the competition each year. Surely coaching staff could see Dufty's weaknesses during off season training, during the trials and during his previous stint in ISP. In my opinion those weakness should have been addressed prior to his selection to first grade.

I With knowledge of Dufty's weaknesses, it would have been a better move to use Dugan's salary cap to buy a first grade fullback and then bring Dufty through after he addresses his problems. If this took one or two seasons, so be it. This problem would then be more of a reflection on choices made by Pathways staff.

As sure as night follws day, NRL fullbacks need to be able to defend as well as attack.

 

[True_Believer]

I suppose that if you are a person who thinks Dufty did OK in 2018 and you also think that the Dragons did OK in 2018 and you think Mary and his coaching staff did OK in 2018 then such words are understandable.

I believe that SGI should take every measure and use their best efforts to win the competition each year. Surely coaching staff could see Dufty's weaknesses during off season training, during the trials and during his previous stint in ISP. In my opinion those weakness should have been addressed prior to his selection to first grade.

I With knowledge of Dufty's weaknesses, it would have been a better move to use Dugan's salary cap to buy a first grade fullback and then bring Dufty through after he addresses his problems. If this took one or two seasons, so be it. This problem would then be more of a reflection on choices made by Pathways staff.

As sure as night follws day, NRL fullbacks need to be able to defend as well as attack.

I suppose if you twist every post and conversation into a Millward bashing exercise, then it's easy for you to put words in other peoples mouths.

Out of my post, I'm unsure where you were able to derive these statements from:

• Dragons did OK in 2018
• Mary and his coaching staff did OK in 2018
• NRL fullbacks only need to be able to attack

I probably shouldn't have expected anything less than a final twist of the post towards recruitment.

 

[Wittenberg]

I look at Dufty and he is a true rocks and diamonds player. I wait for his weekly drop of a bomb and I know his defence can be poor. Little things also annoy me.....watch how slowly he gets up to play the ball. But he has stopped trying to run around everyone and he knows to avoid the sideline far more than he did at first and he is hitting the ground quicker to stop being rag dolled. His pace in a strange way has held back his development but his pace is pure gold. He does need to trail up the middle more because the fear of his pace will open up gaps for others when opponents commit themselves too much towards him, even when he doesn't have the ball. My brother in law is a Bulldogs fan (I know .....what the hell was she thinking!), and I remember him saying Ben Barba would never make it and that he was a turnstile in defence. Dufty might not become a Barba but can I give him one more year to see how he develops? Yep. I bet one or two clubs will be sniffing around him this year to secure him for 2020 because they might think that he just might develop into something special.

 

[BLM01]

Yes

I'm all for giving an outstanding junior a go in first grade to see if he can cut it however, after a year of perseverance, I feel it's time to send Dufty back to ISP to address his weaknesses. Now if Dufty feels offended by this so be it. He should have more pride in his work and be glad for the opportunity to address his short-comings.

By the way, same policy should apply to any first grade player including Aitken, Lafai and if Lomax proves to be under done, he too should be dropped to ISP to improve himself.

It looks like the knives are out and i am flogging a dead horse with this argument. He wont be dropped so we both are.. Lets see how he starts the season off. Remember it is not a 1 man game and their is coaching staff employed to improve and grow players as well as Mary. Focus on them a bit more!
I have my opinion and open minded re Dufty as I see the potential and time needed, you guys dont and as have already made your mind up. God help Lomax if he does not perform to expectations next year.
This will be the last time I comment in the positive corner of Dufty. But will happily eat my words next year and comment if I feel his time is over as I did Gypsy's.

 

[True_Believer]

Yes

It looks like the knives are out and i am flogging a dead horse with this argument. He wont be dropped so we both are.. Lets see how he starts the season off. Remember it is not a 1 man game and their is coaching staff employed to improve and grow players as well as Mary. Focus on them a bit more!
I have my opinion and I open as I see the potential and time needed, you guys dont and as have already made your mind up. God help Lomax if he does not perform to expectations next year.
This will be the last time I comment in the positive corner of Dufty. But will happily eat my words next year and comment if I feel his time is over as I did Gypsy's.

Doesn't stop possm flogging the Millward dead horse. Flog away..

 

[BLM01]

Doesn't stop possm flogging the Millward dead horse. Flog away..

Well you last statement...OK..probably a given, especially if the Dragons start the season with a win ratio of 6/6 again

 

[Dragonslayer]

I have no doubt we are going to win the ISP premiership in 2019.
With just about everyone being dropped there Matt Head will be beside himself!

 

[True_Believer]

Well you last statement...OK..probably a given, especially if the Dragons start the season with a win ratio of 6/6 again

Lol! Sorry - you know what I meant!

 

[True_Believer]

I have no doubt we are going to win the ISP premiership in 2019.
With just about everyone being dropped there Matt Head will be beside himself!

Yep - we might find it difficult to field a first grade side. We might have to end up forfeiting a few games in 2019.

Hold on a sec, I almost forgot, we just about have a full cap spare to buy a whole new team! You just keep buying until you find a player that performs to fans expectations.

 

[Old Timer]

What gets me about people in here is all of the bleating and club blame for not promoting players from ISP. Then they do and they have a less than stellar debut season and it's now get rid of them and buy someone else or promote someone else.

But then it's the coaches fault for not coaching these deficiencies out of them immediately. Hell even Blind Freddy could tell you that Dufty and Field have a size disadvantage and, if they are actually going to make it, it will take longer than a year to comfortably slot into first grade - despite coaching efforts. As I've stated many times, just because they perform in ISP, doesn't mean that always translates directly to NRL. You'll notice the players that translate more easily are those with size. In my opinion, it's been a wise choice to hold a few of these players back a little longer.

Personally I think Dufty did OK for his first year given his deficiencies. He'll grow into the role but he needs more than a year.

Nice post
If Dufty works on and improves
his deficiencies namely kick return, high ball catching & defence he is still a 2 year work in progress.
I actually think he can make it and is worth persevering with this year rather than buying an air head like Hayne
If the club is smart and plays Lomax full time while properly blooding Lawrie, Robson, Host, Field etc IMO our real premiership window is 2020/21 and not 2019.
If we don’t do the above we will not progress and then we will lose Graham and probably one if not 2 of our rep players plus the untapped youth and our window will disappear.
Ridiculous people wanting to drop Dufty after 1 year of NRL and how quickly people forget the wraps they gave him early in 2018.
Not his fault the team and especially the forwards ran out of puff.

 

[Carlton]

I suppose if you twist every post and conversation into a Millward bashing exercise, then it's easy for you to put words in other peoples mouths.

Out of my post, I'm unsure where you were able to derive these statements from:

• Dragons did OK in 2018
• Mary and his coaching staff did OK in 2018
• NRL fullbacks only need to be able to attack

I probably shouldn't have expected anything less than a final twist of the post towards recruitment.

Fair go, I didn't see possm mention Millward even once in his post.

I can understand where he is coming from on this. I don't want us to be continually working towards a premiership sometime in the distant future. I want us to build a competitive team with solid first graders across the park who have learnt their trade in reserves before being promoted. If they have deficiencies then find a solution from outside until they are ready for promotion.

This is the only way you can establish a team that can be continually updated without major changes year on year and give the really top class juniors a genuine pathway.

 

[True_Believer]

Fair go, I didn't see possm mention Millward even once in his post.

I can understand where he is coming from on this. I don't want us to be continually working towards a premiership sometime in the distant future. I want us to build a competitive team with solid first graders across the park who have learnt their trade in reserves before being promoted. If they have deficiencies then find a solution from outside until they are ready for promotion.

This is the only way you can establish a team that can be continually updated without major changes year on year and give the really top class juniors a genuine pathway.

Firstly, my point was that possm seems to be able to turn any conversation towards Millward or his team. If he can do that, making up stuff about what I said in my post isn't too much of a stretch. I'm not going to ease up if he's going try to make my post into something it wasn't.

Secondly, I guess you missed the "...choices made by Pathways staff." comment which conveniently leads back to Millward. It's an unhealthy obsession and he needs to seek treatment.

My whole point about this was that people THINK that players are ready to step up based on what they've seen in ISP. They call for their inclusion in the team and then immediately call for their demotion when they don't transition well. If we're going to promote and drop players after a game or 2, we'll have no cohesion, and we'll be constantly on the lookout for players to fill gaps and trying to sign players to 1 year contracts while we 'develop' players at lower levels. In some cases we may not even have players in form to fill the gaps. But hey, apparently we can go and purchase anyone at any time because we have unlimited cap (or at least some being squirrelled away) and build multiple teams to cater for this scenario. Can you see how stupid some of these suggestions are getting?

And you know what? We did exactly what you said with Latimore. Found a solution from outside to fill the gap until our ISP players were ready - but that still isn't good enough. Lats isn't good enough - we need a better forward, a representative forward who is NRL quality. Someone who ultimately will stand in the way of the youngsters coming through and turn them away from the club for someone like the Roosters to pick up and turn into the future of the team while we are left with a has-been.

The youngsters aren't going to become solid first graders (or even outstanding first graders) unless we persevere with them in first grade once they get their chance.

Are you suggesting that Dufty isn't a top class junior?

 

[Carlton]

Firstly, my point was that possm seems to be able to turn any conversation towards Millward or his team. If he can do that, making up stuff about what I said in my post isn't too much of a stretch. I'm not going to ease up if he's going try to make my post into something it wasn't.

Secondly, I guess you missed the "...choices made by Pathways staff." comment which conveniently leads back to Millward. It's an unhealthy obsession and he needs to seek treatment.

My whole point about this was that people THINK that players are ready to step up based on what they've seen in ISP. They call for their inclusion in the team and then immediately call for their demotion when they don't transition well. If we're going to promote and drop players after a game or 2, we'll have no cohesion, and we'll be constantly on the lookout for players to fill gaps and trying to sign players to 1 year contracts while we 'develop' players at lower levels. In some cases we may not even have players in form to fill the gaps. But hey, apparently we can go and purchase anyone at any time because we have unlimited cap (or at least some being squirrelled away) and build multiple teams to cater for this scenario. Can you see how stupid some of these suggestions are getting?

And you know what? We did exactly what you said with Latimore. Found a solution from outside to fill the gap until our ISP players were ready - but that still isn't good enough. Lats isn't good enough - we need a better forward, a representative forward who is NRL quality. Someone who ultimately will stand in the way of the youngsters coming through and turn them away from the club for someone like the Roosters to pick up and turn into the future of the team while we are left with a has-been.

The youngsters aren't going to become solid first graders (or even outstanding first graders) unless we persevere with them in first grade once they get their chance.

Are you suggesting that Dufty isn't a top class junior?

You like to generalise a lot and tell people what they are thinking. The issue with juniors coming into first grade is that they should be blooded when the opportunity is best for the team. For example I have said Dufty should have been brought into first grade to see how he handled it instead of playing nightingale at fullback. I have never said anything different about Dufty, he has skills but I dont believe he is physical enough and has had over a year in first grade to show what he has and that now the experiment should be ended and a more complete footballer recruited for fullback.

I have never suggested buying juniors and "squirrelling them away", I have been very clear and said they should be judged and moved on as soon as it does not look like they will be the player needed and then the next one recruited. There is no multiple teams as there is a movement in and out of the squad based on their performances.

If we can bring someone in who is so good that a junior cant get into first grade, who cares? Thats exactly what we should be trying to do when we recruit. You mention the Roosters picking up the discarded juniors and turning them into first grade stars. They only buy the "best" juniors and then only keep the ones that show that they are definitely going to make it, they do not buy discards and they pay for them.

 

[DRAGONHEART4]

Couldn’t have said it better Possm. We need a big fullback who can catch a ball,make yards and stop tries. Dufty unfortunately will never be any of the above. Let’s go all out and sign Hayne.

 

[True_Believer]

You like to generalise a lot and tell people what they are thinking. The issue with juniors coming into first grade is that they should be blooded when the opportunity is best for the team. For example I have said Dufty should have been brought into first grade to see how he handled it instead of playing nightingale at fullback. I have never said anything different about Dufty, he has skills but I dont believe he is physical enough and has had over a year in first grade to show what he has and that now the experiment should be ended and a more complete footballer recruited for fullback.

I have never suggested buying juniors and "squirrelling them away", I have been very clear and said they should be judged and moved on as soon as it does not look like they will be the player needed and then the next one recruited. There is no multiple teams as there is a movement in and out of the squad based on their performances.

If we can bring someone in who is so good that a junior cant get into first grade, who cares? Thats exactly what we should be trying to do when we recruit. You mention the Roosters picking up the discarded juniors and turning them into first grade stars. They only buy the "best" juniors and then only keep the ones that show that they are definitely going to make it, they do not buy discards and they pay for them.

Where have I generalised?

Where have I told people what they are thinking? I'm just going by what people say in the forums here. If they don't think the ISP players are ready, why call for them to be promoted? They obviously 'think' the player is ready which is what I stated.

How do you know Dufty wasn't blooded when it was best for the team? Because you thought he should have been blooded when Nightingale played fullback? Are we 100% sure Dufty was ready at that point in time? I don't disagree with timing the promotion appropriately, but there is so much we don't know about the players and whether everything lines up. I may think at times that a player should be brought into the team at a certain time, but I'm not going to say whether a decision is right or wrong when I only have 1/2 the story.

And I'm not talking about squirrelling away the juniors, I was referring to the millions of cap money that the club is apparently sitting on (again, based on what is being discussed in the forum). Like we know all this for a fact. It's all based on made up numbers without a clue as to what's been spent where.

" If they have deficiencies then find a solution from outside until they are ready for promotion." and "give the really top class juniors a genuine pathway" highlights to me that you didn't think Dufty was a top class junior - because we've actually provided him with a pathway and we've given him an opportunity. As you've confirmed, you want him dropped and somebody recruited - that answers my question.

Finally, I'm not talking about discarded juniors at all - I'm talking about those that have potential but aren't quite ready and then we go and buy an alternative to simply have them move on because we've blocked their path. Juniors won't sit behind another player indefinitely. They'll move on as soon as they get an offer elsewhere - Jack Bird ring any bells? So then we have to wait for another junior to come through, and meanwhile purchase another to fill the gap.

 

[Crush]

Couldn’t have said it better Possm. We need a big fullback who can catch a ball,make yards and stop tries. Dufty unfortunately will never be any of the above. Let’s go all out and sign Hayne.

Ben Barba was none of those things but geez he was good when he was good. Pure speed, he would hit the ball and BOOM he was gone.
Ben was never going to be big, he was never going to make big yards off his goal line and wasn't going to be a great defender but without him the sharks don't win that 2016 comp.
Dufty is our Ben Barba.

 

[True_Believer]

Nice post
If Dufty works on and improves
his deficiencies namely kick return, high ball catching & defence he is still a 2 year work in progress.
I actually think he can make it and is worth persevering with this year rather than buying an air head like Hayne
If the club is smart and plays Lomax full time while properly blooding Lawrie, Robson, Host, Field etc IMO our real premiership window is 2020/21 and not 2019.
If we don’t do the above we will not progress and then we will lose Graham and probably one if not 2 of our rep players plus the untapped youth and our window will disappear.
Ridiculous people wanting to drop Dufty after 1 year of NRL and how quickly people forget the wraps they gave him early in 2018.
Not his fault the team and especially the forwards ran out of puff.

I can't completely agree with you OT (that would be against my better judgement) - I haven't seen a heap of Field, but from what I have seen, my guess is he is still a year or 2 out. I'd love to see Lawrie and Host (as well as Luc) get more game time next year. I haven't seen enough of Robson to give an opinion.

I think you are right about the window - 20/21 is more likely and if we can build enough to have them come through to be regulars in the next 2 years, that window could be extended.

Of course other things need to change as well...

 

[possm]

I simply bring the elementary facts to members that, under the current arrangement, recruitment and pathways are responsible to provide a squad of suitable players to the coaching staff. The coaching staff are then charged with the responsibility to put the best 17 of those players on the field in first grade each week. If there is a disconnect between players available and players with a required skill-set to do the job, then the coaching staff unnecessarily have their hands tied. The problem only gets worse when the coaching staff are not able to improve the skill-set of players in their squad.

In 2018 we had a bunch of juniors in our squad together with a few ISP players who were not up to the task and at the same time had at least 4 of the back 5 first grade players who were below standard; Dufty, Nightingale, Aitken and Lafai; all having contracts recently extended - Nightingale being the exception his term ended in 2018.

On the bright side, our forwards are a very good pack and I believe would not have failed mid-season through fatigue if one or two additional first grade ready props were available or if a proper rotation system was put in place. Latimore surprised and Lawrie came good at seasons end.

In 2019 we have K Sims in for Ah Mau but even with Latimore and Lawrie being available again, we still lack one first grade ready prop to ensure a proper prop rotation for season 2019.

Given all of the above I can't give recruitment/pathways a pass mark; although I do give them credit for the transition of Zac Lomax from the junior ranks through ISP and on to first grade. Lomax is the example by which pathways should strive to achieve.

Words like 'Millward is doing a great job' fly in the face of the above described situation. In my opinion opportunities were lost in 2018 mainly due to this situation.

The problem is even more serious given the quality of our coaching staff, the loss of Macdonald and the current lack of available quality players to replace Nightingale, Dufty, Lafai and Macdonald. At this stage, the only happy note is the anticipation of success for Lomax in season 2019 and the excitement that K Sims, Leilua and Lawrie may add to the already powerful pack of forwards.

All of the above problems are self inflicted and could be avoided if a more business like attitude was adopted when hireing key personnel within our Club.