Dugan/Widdop/Marshall/Farrah Spine??

[TruSaint]

I honestly have no idea what any of this is supposed to mean, but I'll do my best to respond. Firstly, opposition defences focus on him because he is one of our most potent attacking weapons and more often than not will beat a 1-on-1 tackle.

Your argument that he is "not as mobile or elusive as he used to be" has zero basis to it and his stats suggest the complete opposite.



Really all the opposition have to do is put numbers in the tackle to try and stop him? Amazing, you have literally come up with a formula to stop all the "power runners"... Players like Inglis, Vatuvai, Morris etc are now officially redundant because you have cracked the code how to shut down the "power running" attack. I hope NRL defensive coaches are taking note... Unbelievable...



Barr the Premiership and CC medal Thurston had already won every award prior. He's had a phenomenal career period. Year after year he has produced, regardless of who he has played with. Many would argue that he may have already won the Premiership and CC medal in 2013 or 2014 if not for blatant refereeing errors.



So you're arguing that Thurston was able to get so many try assists (28 in 25 matches) due to Coote's presence on the field, yet Marshall was able to get 22 try assists in 22 matches, despite having only Josh Dugan (who apparently can't pass the football) on the field?

Statistically they are virtually on par which means your try assist argument is invalid.



You obviously have a short memory. In 2005 Thurston had Nathan Fien and Matt Bowen in his spine, both of which were better than Granville and Coote.

Nick these multi-replies are doing mu head in. Its fricken 40 degrees... cool down.

 

[giboz71]

Nick, think we should agree to disagree and leave it at that. Think I've supported my argument pretty clearly.

But let me pose the question, would the Cows have won the comp with Dugan as their fullback? I vote no, not even close.

On the other hand, if they kept Coote at FB and had Dugan at centre, I think they would have won the comp easy, daylight second.

 

[BrissyRedV]

Nick, think we should agree to disagree and leave it at that. Think I've supported my argument pretty clearly.

But let me pose the question, would the Cows have won the comp with Dugan as their fullback? I vote no, not even close.

You're not going to get a clear answer with hypotheticals when someone with a deep seeded opinion is ignoring factual situations. The simple fact is, Thurston is a great player, who was well supported by his fullback and his 5/8. The cows also had an exceptional pack who were regularly able to win the ruck and get quick plays and create space for them. They had a well balanced team. Something that we really aren't on reflection of the stat's and results. But we are improving. A few tweaks to the backline and the pack and a little further guidance from the coach and who knows?

 

[The Nick]

Nick these multi-replies are doing mu head in. Its fricken 40 degrees... cool down.

Sorry mate - easiest way to address several responses. It's only 25 degrees down this way.

Nick, think we should agree to disagree and leave it at that. Think I've supported my argument pretty clearly.

But let me pose the question, would the Cows have won the comp with Dugan as their fullback? I vote no, not even close.

On the other hand, if they kept Coote at FB and had Dugan at centre, I think they would have won the comp easy, daylight second.

I think we both have. In response to your question I honestly think yes they could have. Obviously their structure would be different to accommodate Dugan's running game, but who knows how damaging Dugan could be running off Thurston, and who knows how many show-and-goes Thurston could sell with Dugan as a decoy. Not too mention the fact Dugan is a big game player.

I am well aware of Dugan's shortcomings with ball in hand but regardless I still think he is an excellent player and one of the top fullbacks in the game despite his unorthodox style.

 

[watatank]

I honestly have no idea what any of this is supposed to mean, but I'll do my best to respond. Firstly, opposition defences focus on him because he is one of our most potent attacking weapons and more often than not will beat a 1-on-1 tackle.

Your argument that he is "not as mobile or elusive as he used to be" has zero basis to it and his stats suggest the complete opposite.

I'm basically saying that we are a team that relies very heavily on Dugan doing something (and he's not that good that we can rely on him to do that) and am suggesting that maybe that needs to change.

I'm not sure what stats you're referring to but I'm basically saying that Dugan is bigger and runs differently, more like a centre/backrower and he uses his size to get through defences more than he used to.

You obviously have a short memory. In 2005 Thurston had Nathan Fien and Matt Bowen in his spine, both of which were better than Granville and Coote.

It was actually Aaron Payne (Fien had already left and was more of a half at Cowboys anyway) but you're talking about a spine that included Justin Smith which is pretty much equivalent to Jack De Belin at five eighth. Coote's move to fullback allowed Morgan to play five eighth this year which was also cruicial this season.

 

[The Nick]

I'm basically saying that we are a team that relies very heavily on Dugan doing something (and he's not that good that we can rely on him to do that) and am suggesting that maybe that needs to change.

I'm not sure what stats you're referring to but I'm basically saying that Dugan is bigger and runs differently, more like a centre/backrower and he uses his size to get through defences more than he used to.

It was actually Aaron Payne (Fien had already left and was more of a half at Cowboys anyway) but you're talking about a spine that included Justin Smith which is pretty much equivalent to Jack De Belin at five eighth. Coote's move to fullback allowed Morgan to play five eighth this year which was also cruicial this season.

The stats I was referring to were his kick return metres and overall running metres which suggest to me he is still very agile and elusive.

With regards to the '05 cowboys team you are right, memory failed me there. Also forgot Fein played halfback for them, I guess I prefer to think of him as a 9, but regardless you are correct.

Personally I thought Justin Smith as a running 5/8 was a great foil for Thurston and Bowen, just like I think Dugan should be a good foil for Benji within the right structure. People are arguing that an extra playmaker would add more balance. I'm of the belief that on the flip side it can equal too many cooks in the kitchen.

A good ball player is useless without good ball runners.

 

[rainman44]

Nick, think we should agree to disagree and leave it at that. Think I've supported my argument pretty clearly.

But let me pose the question, would the Cows have won the comp with Dugan as their fullback? I vote no, not even close.

On the other hand, if they kept Coote at FB and had Dugan at centre, I think they would have won the comp easy, daylight second.

I agree mate. Need ball players in the 1 these days to help the 6 and 7 and 9 otherwise its harder to score points with defences very hard to get threw these days.

 

[watatank]

The stats I was referring to were his kick return metres and overall running metres which suggest to me he is still very agile and elusive.

With regards to the '05 cowboys team you are right, memory failed me there. Also forgot Fein played halfback for them, I guess I prefer to think of him as a 9, but regardless you are correct.

Personally I thought Justin Smith as a running 5/8 was a great foil for Thurston and Bowen, just like I think Dugan should be a good foil for Benji within the right structure. People are arguing that an extra playmaker would add more balance. I'm of the belief that on the flip side it can equal too many cooks in the kitchen.

A good ball player is useless without good ball runners.

Smith played a role for the Cowboys at the time but I'm sure they would have just preferred an actual half and I'm sure their play would have been enhanced by having one.

I don't think it's necessarily about having extra playmakers it's about having options. I look at how we play and I see that generally we score/make inroads from a big play from Widdop or Marshall (low percentage) or some individual brilliance. I just think we work harder for our points than we should be and the way we do it is not sustainable.

If you look at a team like the Cowboys they have many ways in which they can score. They have multiple threats, they have players in key positions that are a running threat, passing threat and can kick if required. They can draw defenders to them and promote the ball if required. Just have a look at what Morgan did in the Grand Final to set up the try to tie up the game at the end. I don't know if Dugan scores there given the ball in the same situation. They have found a way to make it all come together.

I'd be interested to see which teams have actually been affected by having 'too many cooks', I don't even think that's feasible under the salary cap anyway.

 

[The Nick]

I'd be interested to see which teams have actually been affected by having 'too many cooks', I don't even think that's feasible under the salary cap anyway.

Could you imagine Rein if he had 3 blokes calling for the footy...?

 

[watatank]

It's his job to make the right call and find the right player, if he can't do that then we need to find someone else.

 

[giboz71]

I agree mate. Need ball players in the 1 these days to help the 6 and 7 and 9 otherwise its harder to score points with defences very hard to get threw these days.

That's really what I've been trying to highlight all along with the Coote/Dugan comparison.

Cootes 15 try assists netted a potential 90 points which would likely equate to 4-5 extra wins. I'll take that any day over someone who big running metres. And there was the added bonus of freeing up Thurston which allowed him to have the year he had.

And most important of all, he's on probably half of what Dugan is on. Who do you think is getting better value for money?? I'd say the premiers.

 

[Lethal25]

That's really what I've been trying to highlight all along with the Coote/Dugan comparison.

Cootes 15 try assists netted a potential 90 points which would likely equate to 4-5 extra wins. I'll take that any day over someone who big running metres. And there was the added bonus of freeing up Thurston which allowed him to have the year he had.

It's pure guessing to say that's Coote's 15 try assists equal a certain number of wins. Without someone providing the running metres then maybe those try assists don't materialise. Obviously you like what Coote did for the Cowboys but Saints don't have JT and Matt Scott and Michael Morgan etc etc.

Coote may have played well but would he be more effective than Dugan in the Saints team of 2015????

 

[giboz71]

It's pure guessing to say that's Coote's 15 try assists equal a certain number of wins. Without someone providing the running metres then maybe those try assists don't materialise. Obviously you like what Coote did for the Cowboys but Saints don't have JT and Matt Scott and Michael Morgan etc etc.

Coote may have played well but would he be more effective than Dugan in the Saints team of 2015????

Yep fair point mate. It's all about chemistry. I've said all along that our spine has 4 great individuals but as a unit, they are flawed.

Coote is not elite by any means, but his skillset provided the Cowboys what they needed to get over the line. Morgan had been the FB in previous years, and he didn't possess great playmaking skills. Coote's acquisition allowed him to move as a running 5/8 where he shone. And then they got Granville - it was a perfect combination.

We need to start thinking like that. Stop focussing on individuals but recruit for the good of the team. It's why we got Marshall when we already had Widdop as a 5/8. It's why we forked out 700k for Dugan when in reality we already had Bmoz who could have done the same thing (Hasler had no hesitation in making him FB for the Dogs) And now we're supoosedly chasing Farah.

We should stop chasing every unwanted superstar out there, throw them in the team and hope for the best.

A little out of the box thinking wouldn't go astray (case in point, the Cowboys recruitment of Coote).

 

[Vic Mackey]

Looks like Farah might not be the Tigers spine player Saints end up with...

 

[bottle]

Looks like Farah might not be the Tigers spine player Saints end up with...

Hang on, Manly got Moltzen didn't they?
Please say yes.
Seriously though, fess up, what've you heard?

 

[grandorient]

Tedesco to the Saints ???

GO

 

[Wittenberg]

Vas are you secretly Benji's mother?? I agree with you about him, he has the potency and try creating ability above the other players in our side, but your love for him has no bounds. Try to curtail it just a little. You don't have to prove Benji's worth to everyone........it is not you and Benji against the world. Mind you I think he owes you a signed jersey by now.

 

[Vasilevsky]

Vas are you secretly Benji's mother?? I agree with you about him, he has the potency and try creating ability above the other players in our side, but your love for him has no bounds. Try to curtail it just a little. You don't have to prove Benji's worth to everyone........it is not you and Benji against the world. Mind you I think he owes you a signed jersey by now.

WTF are you talking about? All I said is the fact that Benji and Dugan, the most broadly denounced backs on this forum, were without question the 2 best backs in the team last season. Is this untrue?

 

[BennyV]

WTF are you talking about? All I said is the fact that Benji and Dugan, the most broadly denounced backs on this forum, were without question the 2 best backs in the team last season. Is this untrue?

Dylan Farrell says hi...

 

[Vic Mackey]

Tedesco to the Saints ???

GO

His mate in the 6