Elliott cleaning house

[auckwarriors]

I for one have thoroughly enjoyed watching the progressive dismantling of a football department - coaches, players and football management - that achieved the wonderful feat of getting every grade to a grand final two years ago today, and had won a club championship a year prior to that.

Our club's once most passionate player who did so much for team morale, is now out the door with an 'attitude problem'. For some reason, it's an attitude problem he never had in the first four years of his NRL career - the opposite, in fact. More will follow him. The nucleus of young and prodigiously talented players around which a seriously good team had begun to develop come the end of 2011, are already or soon will be gone.

Between 2006 and 2011, the Warriors were one of the NRL's most consistent and successful clubs - in all grades. Outside of Melbourne and Manly, there weren't many other teams (including Penrith under Elliott's reign) that had a level of consistency or success to rival this club.

The structure being put in place today is supposedly going to deliver long-awaited success - yet it is the polar opposite of the structure that had been bringing success for a long time, and was on the cusp of something special, until its architects were mercilessly knifed.

The decline of this club since the 2011 grand final, especially after the steep upward trajectory from 2009 onward, is really a great tragedy. I don't think this management realised just how good things were, and how difficult they were to replace, until it was gone.

It really feels like 2004 around here again, and we're back at square one. My god how it's all unravelled.

 

[LeagueNut]

Does Steve Price have a role at the Warriors such as development or welfare?

He seems to be the type of person IMO which should be working in upper management at the club

I think he's more involved in the Membership side. Apparently if you don't renew your season tickets quickly enough he'll phone you to ask why.

 

[LeagueNut]

Between 2006 and 2011, the Warriors were one of the NRL's most consistent and successful clubs - in all grades. Outside of Melbourne and Manly, there weren't many other teams (including Penrith under Elliott's reign) that had a level of consistency or success to rival this club.

We may have been consistent, but we were only "mid-table" consistent. I don't know if Cleary and his set-up could have got us to the next level but someone made the decision to try Bluey instead and that set us back a few years.

I agree with other comments in here about a "start from the top" approach. Realistically every single workplace in the world is going to have a few loose screws but that shouldn't be enough to make the whole house fall down.

 

[ozbash]

Ackland is successful because he's consistently got a top 4 squad in talent every year

like our NRL team ? all the 'experts' reckon, pre season, we are the team to beat, on paper.

still waiting....

 

[ozbash]

The structure being put in place today is supposedly going to deliver long-awaited success - yet it is the polar opposite of the structure that had been bringing success for a long time, and was on the cusp of something special, until its architects were mercilessly knifed.

probably the most sensible thing Ive read on this board in a long time.

 

[Fast Eddie]

like our NRL team ? all the 'experts' reckon, pre season, we are the team to beat, on paper.

No they don't.

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

I for one have thoroughly enjoyed watching the progressive dismantling of a football department - coaches, players and football management - that achieved the wonderful feat of getting every grade to a grand final two years ago today, and had won a club championship a year prior to that.

Our club's once most passionate player who did so much for team morale, is now out the door with an 'attitude problem'. For some reason, it's an attitude problem he never had in the first four years of his NRL career - the opposite, in fact. More will follow him. The nucleus of young and prodigiously talented players around which a seriously good team had begun to develop come the end of 2011, are already or soon will be gone.

Between 2006 and 2011, the Warriors were one of the NRL's most consistent and successful clubs - in all grades. Outside of Melbourne and Manly, there weren't many other teams (including Penrith under Elliott's reign) that had a level of consistency or success to rival this club.

The structure being put in place today is supposedly going to deliver long-awaited success - yet it is the polar opposite of the structure that had been bringing success for a long time, and was on the cusp of something special, until its architects were mercilessly knifed.

The decline of this club since the 2011 grand final, especially after the steep upward trajectory from 2009 onward, is really a great tragedy. I don't think this management realised just how good things were, and how difficult they were to replace, until it was gone.

It really feels like 2004 around here again, and we're back at square one. My god how it's all unravelled.

I'm really torn about whether I agree with this or not. On one hand I agree that we probably failed to appreciate the success that we had 2007-2011. Making the finals 4 years out of 5 including a grand-final and a preliminary final and finishing 4th and 5th on the ladder in the other 2 years was an excellent string of results. As you say, apart from Manly and Melbourne that put us right up there over that period of time.

On the other hand, stepping back and applying a broad brush like that can obscure the reality as well as reveal it. Did it actually feel like we were killing it over that period? Hardly. Our overall win rate still hovered around 50% (I think we sometimes forget that the difference between a good and bad season can be whether you finish 11-13 or 13-11 over the 24 games). We still went through big peaks and troughs. When we strung together epic late season runs (2008 and 2011) they came on the back of otherwise ho-hum seasons, and there was still that nagging feeling that we weren't really anywhere near the best team or good enough to win a premiership. I mean hell, it could've happened if everything had clicked during the 2011 GF, but it would've been a bit of a fluke, right?

Cleary's style was to drip feed the local talent into the side while persisting with a lot of Aussie journeymen. That probably sounds like genius compared to what we have now, but let's not forget the limitations of his style. Under Cleary we often put out sides which didn't look that strong on paper but found a way to scrape over the line. The 2007 side for example somehow made it to 4th at the end of the regular season yet never realistically looked like premiership contenders.

Of course it's better to have an overperforming side than an underperforming side, but it's problematic if a coach depends on coaxing the most out of average players because he doesn't back himself to get the most out of really talented youngsters. We have the most talented crop of youngsters in the comp. Obviously feeding them through to first grade appropriately is a tricky task. I certainly don't think Cleary nailed it. Often it seemed he had very little interest in doing so.

Let's also not forget that Cleary was here for a long time. Over his 6 years in charge he showed little inclination to change his style. It was a style that maintained an above-average status quo without really trying to use the resources that the club had to their maximum. I think we were entitled to look for more.

2012 and 2013 show that we f**ked it up and ended up with something worse than what we had, but that doesn't mean that Cleary was guiding us to glory. My overriding impression of Cleary was of a guy who liked to eke the most out of his squad each season without ever really trying to build towards a premiership.

 

[vvvrulz]

We may have been consistent, but we were only "mid-table" consistent. I don't know if Cleary and his set-up could have got us to the next level but someone made the decision to try Bluey instead and that set us back a few years.

I wouldn't say mid-table consistent, we were better than that.

In the years of 2007/2008/2010/2011 we were regarded in the top four teams of the competition, we weren't quite premiership winners but we were one rung off the top of the ladder. 2009 as we know was a poor year due to a number of reasons.

Given a few more years with the way the squad was developing in 2011, I'm sure Cleary would have given us a title somewhere in there. Its amazing how much raw talent we had to burn at the beginning of 2012, we were short of a couple of big experienced signings if anything.

 

[Fast Eddie]

His point was look where we finished at the end of the round robin, in 2008 we had to win out last game to finish 8th. 2010 I think we finished 6th, 2011 6th again. As Manu Vatuvei said we had plenty of stretches of mediocre boring football and then we would string some wins together at the end of the season or couple of brilliant upsets in the playoffs. I can't really disagree with anything he had to say in his post. Even though we benefited from it I'm glad they have changed the finals system.

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

I wouldn't say mid-table consistent, we were better than that.

In the years of 2007/2008/2010/2011 we were regarded in the top four teams of the competition, we weren't quite premiership winners but we were one rung off the top of the ladder. 2009 as we know was a poor year due to a number of reasons.

Given a few more years with the way the squad was developing in 2011, I'm sure Cleary would have given us a title somewhere in there. Its amazing how much raw talent we had to burn at the beginning of 2012, we were short of a couple of big experienced signings if anything.

This is just total revisionist history imo. In 2007 we were sort of like the 2010 Panthers. We managed a high finish on the ladder during the regular season but everyone knew we weren't that good.

2008 we barely made the 8, it wasn't until we got on a bit of a late season run that anyone rated us.

2010 and 2011 we were an ok side, just the right side of 50/50. Saying that the 2011 side was the culmination of Cleary's developmental efforts over the course of his time in charge or whatever is just nonsense. We actually did better in 2010 than we did in 2011- 2010 we came 5th and lost a competitive match against the Titans, 2011 we came 6th and got absolutely annihilated by the Broncos. We won 2 games and suddenly it's because Cleary's vision had come to fruition? Give me a break.

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

Let's not forget there was serious reluctance to give Johnson a run in 2011. A fair bit of our good run home that season can be put down to Johnson going through his honeymoon phase at just the right time, and I'd venture that had very little to do with Cleary's canny planning.

 

[KeepingTheFaith]

like our NRL team ? all the 'experts' reckon, pre season, we are the team to beat, on paper.

still waiting....

1) No they don't

2) Where do our first graders come from?

Attitude, discipline, the basics of tackling, positioning and handling. These are things not being met in our junior development despite apparently being the best coached team. What a load.

 

[Izz]

Obviously feeding them through to first grade appropriately is a tricky task. I certainly don't think Cleary nailed it. Often it seemed he had very little interest in doung so.

Not sure i agree with this.

From the 2008 NYC team (formation year of NYC) we saw the following play FG for the Warriors under Cleary: Leeson Ah Mau, Patrick Ah Van, Sonny Fai, Issac John, Siuatonga Likiliki, Kevin Locke, Sione Lousi, Russell Packer, Upu Poching, Steve Rapira (though he went elsewhere then came back), Bill Tupou, Alehena Mara, Ben Matulino, Elijah Taylor. Doesn't seem like little interest in feeding U20s to FG to me.

Last year we saw what happened when a coach tried to rush too many guys from U20s to FG. TBH, i think Cleary did a pretty good job of blooding new local talent, while also doing a good job of creating competitive teams for cheap, seeing as the owners didn't like spending much money.

 

[Izz]

Let's not forget there was serious reluctance to give Johnson a run in 2011. A fair bit of our good run home that season can be put down to Johnson going through his honeymoon phase at just the right time, and I'd venture that had very little to do with Cleary's canny planning.

i think, and i know i have no evidence to back this up, that Cleary had been planning from 2010 onward for 2012 to be the big tilt at title year. But then his contract negotiations went south and (fairytale finishes in 2011 notwithstanding) we ended up on the crap heap.

 

[KeepingTheFaith]

Let's not forget there was serious reluctance to give Johnson a run in 2011. A fair bit of our good run home that season can be put down to Johnson going through his honeymoon phase at just the right time, and I'd venture that had very little to do with Cleary's canny planning.

Also coincided with Locke being moved to fullback due to injury rather than any plan.

Cleary was a 79th minute Witt try (2008) and 79th minute Inu try (2011) away from having goose eggs in the playoff win column despite his supposed excellent record.

Lets not forget that in that time we suffered a hammering by Manly (2008), a hammering by the Broncos (2011), a hammering by the Cowboys (2007), a pitiful home loss to the Eels (2007) and games against the Titans (2010) and Manly (2011 GF) where we weren't blown off the park but it really didn't look like we were in the contest until a couple of quick tries in succession when the game was already getting away from us made it appear more competitive than it was.

The Warriors always seemed to be playing at their limit, but when the big games came around they just didn't seem to have an extra level to go to - unless they were playing Melbourne.

 

[vvvrulz]

I don't disagree with some of what you said. The summary of our seasons was pretty much spot on in terms of us being a bit up and down, but we were still a looming consistent threat and I felt it always looked like just a matter of time before we got it all right and seriously contested the premiership.

I do think Cleary was working towards a premiership and wasn't just happy with with mid table finishes as you are alluding to. I don't buy the constant rattle I hear about Cleary never having a premiership in him, his style of footy was boring etc.

Especially that he couldn't get the most out of his talented youngsters. Rubbish.

The likes of Locke, Packer, Lewis Brown, Taylor, Matulino all emerged and were playing the best football we've seen them play under Cleary. Our 2011 squad was mostly all home grown, and almost all of them fell apart in 2012.

He didn't win us a title, and we didn't deserve a title during his time here. Fair enough.
But he still did great things for us here, some credit where its due.

 

[MKEB...]

The Warriors always seemed to be playing at their limit, but when the big games came around they just didn't seem to have an extra level to go to - unless they were playing Melbourne

.

Well put

 

[MKEB...]

Also how much of this can also put down to the apparent white-anting of Bluey and the destruction of last years Vulcans by the powers that be. They were asking for trouble with Juniors coming from the 20s straight through to NPC. Great way to create an ego if you ask me.

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

i think, and i know i have no evidence to back this up, that Cleary had been planning from 2010 onward for 2012 to be the big tilt at title year. But then his contract negotiations went south and (fairytale finishes in 2011 notwithstanding) we ended up on the crap heap.

Ultimately we're all trying to read his mind and it's impossible. All I'd say is that from my point of view the hallmarks of his 6 years in charge (a fair stint in anyone's language) were a dull style of football and consistently middle-of-the-road or slightly above results with a tendency to sneak into the finals.

He was here long enough that I don't think it's overly helpful to speculate on what his plans were going forward in order to justify praising him.

In terms of development, I agree his methods worked better than what we have seen since. However, I don't think simply rattling off the names of NYC players who debuted for us helps much as I'd just argue most of them deserved to play first grade, some were poorly handled and some deserved to play more first grade.

I also think there's a logical link between players not kicking on 2012-2013 and players who were not properly developed/handled prior to 2012. This idea that everyone was at the peak of their powers in 2011 is bogus. It suggests the team was on fire then which isn't true. We were on fire for 2 weeks.

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

I'd argue our run of form this year was as good as anything in the club's history since Daniel Anderson's days, in terms of sustained good performance.