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Financial fragility of the game

Heisenberg

Juniors
Messages
77
Yep. That's been the policy of VFL/AFL since the 1980s - get teams in the big cities, regardless of whether it's heartland AFL or not.

A marked contrast to NSWRL/ARL between 1982 and 1995 where places like Canberra, Woolongong, Newcastle & Townsville - mid-size markets in heartland territory - were priorities.

I'm not begrudging Newcastle, Townsville & Canberra their NRL teams, but it adds pressure on Sydney, because if we want geographical coverage of AFL with a competition of 16-18 clubs that doesn't stretch coaching/player depth, rationalizing Sydney comes into sharp focus.

I have no evidence other than being told by my old man and his brother living in Canberra since the mid seventies, that Canberra was an Aussie Rules town until the Raiders started. Much like the Riverina. All changed in 1982
 

siv

First Grade
Messages
6,765
There is evidence for that. The Roosters have drawn 20k, 17k and 16k to the Adelaide Oval in the last three seasons. That is just a starting point, like the Storm, if you are in it for the long-haul and you become part of the local scene, your following will grow.

The big city markets of Perth and Adelaide are a no-brainer even if RL is not the dominant sport in those markets.

Yep further evidence why Easts should to Adelaide
 

Dark Corner

Juniors
Messages
1,611
Saturday morning to mid-afternoon.
So some junior played and there families will miss out on going to a game...doesn't make sense.
At least in the old days in England before Sunday games you had mid week games but I like the idea of playing junior, social, Touch and Tag on a separate day so all members can support the pro and semi pro game.
 

Hello, I'm The Doctor

First Grade
Messages
9,124
Yep. That's been the policy of VFL/AFL since the 1980s - get teams in the big cities, regardless of whether it's heartland AFL or not.

A marked contrast to NSWRL/ARL between 1982 and 1995 where places like Canberra, Woolongong, Newcastle & Townsville - mid-size markets in heartland territory - were priorities.

I'm not begrudging Newcastle, Townsville & Canberra their NRL teams, but it adds pressure on Sydney, because if we want geographical coverage of AFL with a competition of 16-18 clubs that doesn't stretch coaching/player depth, rationalizing Sydney comes into sharp focus.

I never thought about it, but these regional teams actually made it harder to clear out Sydney via relocation

The biggest cities/regions within the borders of NSW (following Sydney) are:
Newcastle
Canberra
Wollongong/Illawarra
Gosford/CC

If we had left these vacant, we might have seen NSWRL clubs voluntarily move out of Sydney (We saw Bears try to move to Gosford, Jets try to move to Campbeltown, Magpies actually move to Campbeltown, Dragons basically absorb the Illawarra)

Maybe moves to regional NSW would not have felt as dramatic as moves to other states.
 

flippikat

First Grade
Messages
5,262
I never thought about it, but these regional teams actually made it harder to clear out Sydney via relocation

The biggest cities/regions within the borders of NSW (following Sydney) are:
Newcastle
Canberra
Wollongong/Illawarra
Gosford/CC

If we had left these vacant, we might have seen NSWRL clubs voluntarily move out of Sydney (We saw Bears try to move to Gosford, Jets try to move to Campbeltown, Magpies actually move to Campbeltown, Dragons basically absorb the Illawarra)

Maybe moves to regional NSW would not have felt as dramatic as moves to other states.

That's an interesting "what if". On the positive side, you preserve all the classic NSWRL brands from circa 1980, however as far as competition size goes, the gains turn out to be minimal, compared to what we currently have via mergers.

If instead of expanding to Canberra and Woolongong, the league decided to relocate St George to the Illawarra and (let's say) Newtown to Canberra, you have 12 teams with a bigger geographical spread. I picked Newtown as going to Canberra as they were struggling financially, so maybe they the league nudges them towards the ACT instead of their choice of Campbelltown.

The next club to hit the wall is Wests, so maybe the NSWRL/CRL suggests they move to Newcastle. Newcastle Magpies start operations in the mid '80s, then Norths move to Gosford.

So, by the time the league is ready to expand interstate, it still has 12 teams, with a better state-wide spread.

Then add Brisbane, Melbourne, North Queensland & Auckland (Sorry Gold Coast), to make 16 teams, and move some Bulldogs home games to Campbelltown to make them a similar west/south-west team to how Wests Tigers

Well, you pretty much have the current competition footprint, just with Central Coast included in the 16 team line-up instead of Gold Coast.

There would still be the same pressure on the remaining Sydney clubs (in this case Souths, Easts, Bulldogs, Parramatta, Manly, Cronulla & Penrith)
 
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mongoose

Coach
Messages
11,817
I have no evidence other than being told by my old man and his brother living in Canberra since the mid seventies, that Canberra was an Aussie Rules town until the Raiders started. Much like the Riverina. All changed in 1982

has some truth to it. Many federal departments were based in Melbourne before they moved to Canberra, along with them moved the people. Hence AFL started off strong there.
 

Angry_eel

First Grade
Messages
8,651
I have no evidence other than being told by my old man and his brother living in Canberra since the mid seventies, that Canberra was an Aussie Rules town until the Raiders started. Much like the Riverina. All changed in 1982

Did it change in 82 or in the early 90s with the Canberra golden generation. People generally flock to success, case in point - Melbourne Storm post 2006.
 

Loose Cannon

Bench
Messages
4,062
Did it change in 82 or in the early 90s with the Canberra golden generation. People generally flock to success, case in point - Melbourne Storm post 2006.
I started uni in Canberra in 95, pretty sure it started the same week as the first round. I used to do a “pick the margins” footy tab each week but didn’t realise when I got there, they were S-Tab, so couldn’t get on.

I started buying the Telecrap each day to get my fix, and both Sydney Sunday papers, because in my limited knowledge of the City, it seemed the local media was almost devoid of real football news and only AwFuL coverage was given the precious air time and/or print headlines. Keep in mind that the Raiders were premiers.

Of course Super League blew up weeks later, so news was a bit easier to come by. I spent the period from March to July there in 96 and 97 as well, it was always Victorian media from my perspective.
 
Messages
14,736
Another thing is, where the Sydney comp expanded in the 1980s usually already had a successful RL club comp.

Illawarra/South Coast, Newcastle/Hunter, Brisbane...

Newcastle was offered admittance for 1982 and baulked at the idea as they believed it would erode their Newcastle comp. By 1988, seeing other teams in the comp like Canberra (essentially a Queanbeyan club as an ACT/Riverina team) and Illawarra, they got scared of missing out. They were right though, their comp was eroded. But then they had the Knights as a focal point.

Central Coast and Campbelltown wanted a team in this same 1982 expansion.

Brisbane came along at a time similar to the AFL introducing the Brisbane Bears in 1987, although plans were in force for that expansion for some time for RL. In fact, the BRL knocked back a team to compete for 1987.

Gold Coast were just to round the teams to 16 and avoid the bye and were the guys who missed out on a "Brisbane" licence. I don't think they ever really wanted or needed the Giants.

To be fair, I think the old NSWRL was looking at broadening its outlook. They played many clubs games in potential markets. Through the 1980s, they brought in Illawarra, Canberra, Brisbane and Newcastle. All those areas could actually survive as a 'city' based team. Then they pursued Townsville, Perth and Auckland...with an eye to Adelaide and Melbourne too.

The NSWRL's downfall probably came in the culling. They got rid of Newtown, who when you read, actually did much to 'relocate' to Campbelltown, and Western Suburbs. Wests fought, won and moved to Campbelltown. They were a weakened inner city club who languished for the next decade anyway.

Souths would have died naturally, but kicking them out in 2000 galvanised them.

Norths, desperately unlucky during the 1990s at not winning at least one comp with their team, prepared to move to Central Coast and lighten the Sydney load, but they got screwed. Ideally they would have been a North Sydney / CC spread team. Alas, it did not occur. When the Northern Eagles failed, the NRL should have just said it was a CC licence and be done with it but they let Manly back in. The Wests / Balmain merger took two weak clubs and made one weak club. The ideal scenario would have been Para/Balmain and Canterbury Wests. They didn't pursue the Roosters / Saints or Rabbits / Sharks merger options. The Saints / Illawarra merger just weakened the South Coast IMHO. Then the Adelaide and Melbourne options of a relocated Sydney team was frittered away.

Of course Super League muddied all this. And they squandered Perth and to a degree Adelaide. They also gave Sydney teams a heads up in 1993/94 allowing dying teams like Para and Roosters and opportunity to rebuild. They could have easily jettisoned Roosters, Rabbits, Wests and Balmain. For all their history and grand standing, St George continue to struggle over the years.

So we're stuck where we are until some one pulls the trigger. I've said that most, if not all, Sydney teams could survive if they all got their shit together and marketed well, grew memberships and actually 'fished where the fish are'. TBH, I don't have much faith in Sydney teams ever getting their shit completely in order. Certainly the game is cyclical and teams fortunes come and go, but ultimately, no one makes the hard decisions, or if they do, they get overturned or fought over ad nauseam.

Same goes with player development, the player draft etc. Self interest rules.

Anyway...my two cents worth continues that Adelaide and Perth need to come in. Then the national sponsors will be more interested.
 
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titoelcolombiano

First Grade
Messages
6,645
Hmm.. interesting idea. Would leave a lot of questions over the feeder arrangements for Eastern Suburbs and North Sydney, though.

My thoughts exactly. With Manly refusing to branch out from their direct surrounding suburbs, a club like the Roosters, based in Moore Park are the perfect club to branch out and embrace the affluent East and North of Sydney. It fits their club image perfectly and like the Swans and Waratahs, the connection can be made without having to leave Alianz Stadium.

The Roosters need to market themselves to the affluent as the affluent club, not as an NRL club. Much like Melbourne have done. Many AFL fans have adopted the Storm as their second team because they are a Melbourne club being successful in a Sydney centric competition, not because they are an NRL club.
 

Heisenberg

Juniors
Messages
77
Did it change in 82 or in the early 90s with the Canberra golden generation. People generally flock to success, case in point - Melbourne Storm post 2006.

Again, this is all anecdotal... there was a sense around town that WE had a team. Dad and his brother grew up in Kogarah and were obviously Saints fans until the Raiders started in their adopted home. I’m sure there were many people of their generation who moved to Canberra from Sydney who were already league fans.
People do often say Canberra developed a heart when the Raiders won in 89 though.
 

Hello, I'm The Doctor

First Grade
Messages
9,124
Norths, desperately unlucky during the 1990s at not winning at least one comp with their team, prepared to move to Central Coast and lighten the Sydney load, but they got screwed. Ideally they would have been a North Sydney / CC spread team. Alas, it did not occur. When the Northern Eagles failed, the NRL should have just said it was a CC licence and be done with it but they let Manly back in. The Wests / Balmain merger took two weak clubs and made one weak club. The ideal scenario would have been Para/Balmain and Canterbury Wests. They didn't pursue the Roosters / Saints or Rabbits / Sharks merger options. The Saints / Illawarra merger just weakened the South Coast IMHO. Then the Adelaide and Melbourne options of a relocated Sydney team was frittered away..

Good post.

Re: Wests Tigers. It has always seemed the the best merge options would have been
- Magpies + Panthers = Western Sydney Panthers in the Pies Black/White. Their territory would have been the whole west from Penrith to Campbeltown
- Tigers + Bears = Northern Sydney Tigers in Black/Red/Orange (like NFL’s Buccaneers) in CC
 
Messages
14,736
Good post.

Re: Wests Tigers. It has always seemed the the best merge options would have been
- Magpies + Panthers = Western Sydney Panthers in the Pies Black/White. Their territory would have been the whole west from Penrith to Campbeltown
- Tigers + Bears = Northern Sydney Tigers in Black/Red/Orange (like NFL’s Buccaneers) in CC

Either way, I think there were better merger options out there than the ones we got.

The greatest disappointment was the Central Coast Bears IMHO. Timing and circumstances stuffed that, and sure, it's all in the past now, but a decent CC now would have been worth it. That the NRL stood by and watched it all collapse is on them and indicative how they really run/ran the game now/then.
 

Hello, I'm The Doctor

First Grade
Messages
9,124
TV yes. Attendance no for TV ratings they are like a 4th QLD side and hated in NSW just as much

Well you’ve clearly just pulled this out of your ass...

Storm are now consistently getting 18k averages for hone crowds, puttting them above every Sydney club most years.

As for TV audiences, their Melbourne following is massively important to Fox. The few times a year that FTA gets a decent go in Melbourne (gfs/Origin), they will consistently get 300-500k.

I wish our Sydney clubs were as well supported as the Storm
 

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