Former Panthers in the NRL

[betcats]

On the subject of juniors, in 2011, ME's final year, of the 29 players that played for the Panthers, 15 were local juniors. Of the 29 players 15 players played more than 10 games and six were local juniors*, in other words 6 of the regular 17 players were juniors. Quite a low representation and fitting with what the Panther's marketing manager told me at one of the games. ME doesn't watch the juniors and believes the club should find him players ie. signings when he needs them. His job is to coach, not to bring through juniors.

In 2015, the last year of Cleary's first four year stint as coach, 32 players were used and 16 were local juniors. Of the 32 players, 17 players played more than 10 games and 8 were local juniors. Not exactly a giant leap forward in blooding juniors into first grade.

in 2018, Griffins final year, 27 players were used and 21 were local juniors. Of the 27 players used,15 played more than 10 games and 11 were local juniors.

Griffin did a great job and bringing through juniors and the idea that Cleary was just as good at it doesn't seem to be supported by the facts. I also think the idea that the Panthers has good local junior development is just BS. If we did, we would have been playing semi finals much more regularly than we have. Griffin should be applauded for what he did, 3 from 3 and that's with a team of 21/27 local juniors. He had his flaws, but he believed in development more than any other coach we have had in the past.

NB: *For clarity, local juniors includes players who debuted with the Panthers but might have played in juniors elsewhere. Will Smith for example.

Griffin arrived at the club after afour year rebuild, we had two NYC premierships in the three years prior to his arrival. What were our NYC results like in the years prior to Ivan Clearys first stint? Nowhere near premierships. How was the junior pathways and systems back 2011? had they been re designed and reinvested in? No. Are you factoring that in at all? No of course not.

 

[betcats]

He could have been cleaning public toilets for all you know. How is it relevant anyway?

Mate im still waiting for you to back up your claim that Gus asked him to rebuild the pathways.

 

[betcats]

Me nor Frog said it was as bad as he made out. I think we actually all agreed he was likely exaggerating but we can both understand why he would - emotion, dislike of Gus, future job prospects etc.

But at the same time, Gus isn't going to sign a coach who's strength is junior development/pathways if it's not an area of the club that needs improvement. There must of been a weakness that he could see.

Hence why i think the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

I understand why he was bitter, its not a good reason to talk shit IMO. If it was cleary or Moylan doing it after they were fired I really doubt you would be so understanding.

He wasn't just talking himself up with those lies, he was shitting a lot of other peoples hard work and success, that's what I cant cop.

 

[TheFrog]

Mate im still waiting for you to back up your claim that Gus asked him to rebuild the pathways.

Six Tackles With Gus, Round 22, 2018.

 

[martielang]

I understand why he was bitter, its not a good reason to talk shit IMO. If it was cleary or Moylan doing it after they were fired I really doubt you would be so understanding.

He wasn't just talking himself up with those lies, he was shitting a lot of other peoples hard work and success, that's what I cant cop.

I don't think he's talking shit, I think there's well & truly an element of truth behind what he's saying but there's also likely an element of exaggeration due to the fact he's trying to defend himself. We all have ego's mate.

I'm not getting back into this. I think @Pomoz & @Kilkenny have expressed what I'm trying to say in better ways.

 

[Kilkenny]

Did this whole debate all originate around from views about the lack of form of Matt Moylan.

I think a Sharkies fan on LU probably sums up the current Moylan situation in that he made the point Jimmy is playing SOO this evening and in his opinion Moylan should be playing for the Newtown Jets.

 

[OldPanther]

Did this whole debate all originate around from views about the lack of form of Matt Moylan.

I think a Sharkies fan on LU probably sums up the current Moylan situation in that he made the point Jimmy is playing SOO this evening and in his opinion Moylan should be playing for the Newtown Jets.

Yes it started with the fact Moylan is out of form at the moment.

 

[franklin2323]

Griffin arrived at the club after afour year rebuild, we had two NYC premierships in the three years prior to his arrival. What were our NYC results like in the years prior to Ivan Clearys first stint? Nowhere near premierships. How was the junior pathways and systems back 2011? had they been re designed and reinvested in? No. Are you factoring that in at all? No of course not.

If the club was flying why was Ivan axed? We don't know the reason Griffin was hired so maybe he was told to do exactly what he claimed

 

[franklin2323]

2015 was only so bad because it was an injury curse year. If I remember correctly we started with a few wins before the injuries happened and the losses piled up(I'm a bit fuzzy on the details though)

Won the 1st 2. I am far from an Ivan fan and I even think Gus pulled the trigger too soon but for whatever reason he did

 

[Kilkenny]

Yes it started with the fact Moylan is out of form at the moment.

AS I indicated previously having dodgy hamstrings can effect your confidence big time and i have no doubt this is a significant part of his form issues.

 

[Kilkenny]

From my personal perspective we have far bigger issues to worry about that what Hook said on NRL 360.

Season 2019 has been a train wreck in so many ways and I;m not sure the O’Neil, Fletcher & Cleary team have the attributes to get us heading in the right direction.

Hope I’m wrong.

 

[OldPanther]

AS I indicated previously having dodgy hamstrings can effect your confidence big time and i have no doubt this is a significant part of his form issues.

Definitely a possibility. He was off in their last game with something wrapped around his leg.

Won the 1st 2. I am far from an Ivan fan and I even think Gus pulled the trigger too soon but for whatever reason he did

It did take most fans by surprise. Gus himself said it came after Ivan asked for help from the organisation as a team and Ivan being mentally drained or something to that effect.

 

[OldPanther]

From my personal perspective we have far bigger issues to worry about that what Hook said on NRL 360.

Season 2019 has been a train wreck in so many ways and I;m not sure the O’Neil, Fletcher & Cleary team have the attributes to get us heading in the right direction.

Hope I’m wrong.

I reckon we're all hoping you're wrong there. Let's hope 2014 is the standard for Ivan once he's happy with the roster.

 

[Kilkenny]

If anyone has access to Twitter Stew Moses posted a link to a podcast in which O’Neill & Fletcher feature talking about everything Panthers. Interesting listen and a couple of things I got from it is Peachy is far from a done deal to return to the club & it is highly probable we are tipping in for DWZ & Waqa Blake. Draw your own conclusions but that was my take on what they said. There was lot’s of other issues discussed.

 

[Pomoz]

Griffin arrived at the club after afour year rebuild, we had two NYC premierships in the three years prior to his arrival. What were our NYC results like in the years prior to Ivan Clearys first stint? Nowhere near premierships. How was the junior pathways and systems back 2011? had they been re designed and reinvested in? No. Are you factoring that in at all? No of course not.

You make good points Betcats and I did consider that in looking at the information. You will also note I used the last year of his reign as the benchmark so he had four years to bring in juniors. The panthers were u20 winners in 2013 and 5th in 2012, so he had some players to work with. However, it stood out to me how under Cleary many juniors only got to play one or two games. He would much rather shoehorn a tried and trusted player into a position than a junior. Hence his fascination with putting back rowers in the centres so the opposition centre gets practice at running round them. Lewis Brown, Yeo, Sele and so on. He probably had Taylor in the centres at one point too.

In the past Cleary has been very conservative and this year as he got desperate, he threw caution to the wind and it has paid dividends for him. The juniors he has tried have brought energy and commitment to the team, shaking the joint up and delivering much needed enthusiasm. Senior players are now looking over their shoulders.

Bennett sacked Wally Lewis as club captain and moved him to lock to bring in the then relatively unknown Kevin Walters to five eighth, then he sacked him the following season. The Australian and Qld captain no less. Gone, out the door like empty stubbies of Fourex. That takes kahunas and faith in your ability as a coach. Bennett repeatedly brought in juniors and trusted them to deliver and it brought him mainly success. Not every player makes the grade, but his hit rate was pretty good. If Cleary can do that, show some guts, back himself and the players, then maybe he can breakthrough the 50% win ratio ceiling and do something special. I sure hope so.

 

[OldPanther]

If anyone has access to Twitter Stew Moses posted a link to a podcast in which O’Neill & Fletcher feature talking about everything Panthers. Interesting listen and a couple of things I got from it is Peachy is far from a done deal to return to the club & it is highly probable we are tipping in for DWZ & Waqa Blake. Draw your own conclusions but that was my take on what they said. There was lot’s of other issues discussed.

If Panthers are paying for DWZ & Blake it means it was the club that wanted them out. Wonder why.

 

[Pomoz]

If Panthers are paying for DWZ & Blake it means it was the club that wanted them out. Wonder why.

Simple really. They are not worth what they are paid. Neither have stepped up as we had hoped. They are both mediocre to good players based on what they have delivered over the last two seasons, or longer. They are being paid for being good to elite, if the rumours are true.

 

[betcats]

If Panthers are paying for DWZ & Blake it means it was the club that wanted them out. Wonder why.

Disappointed if we are paying anything beyond this year.

 

[OldPanther]

Simple really. They are not worth what they are paid. Neither have stepped up as we had hoped. They are both mediocre to good players based on what they have delivered over the last two seasons, or longer. They are being paid for being good to elite, if the rumours are true.

That is a good reason but if we are now paying for players out of our cap which are not going to even be in our roster.

 

[OldPanther]

Disappointed if we are paying anything beyond this year.

I hope not. I don't want us paying for players who aren't in our top 30.