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The Game Future NRL Stadiums part II

Timbo

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20,281
Watching the World Cup just makes the Sydney suburban grounds look even worse. How hard can it be to get some basic all seated 20k grounds at brookvale etc?

It's also because there are too many people *cough* Perth Red *cough* who let perfect be the enemy of good.

Every new stadium has to be a CommBank Stadium clone or above or it's a joke and we're not a 'real' sports league.

Take Totally Wicked Stadium, St. Helens home ground. It seats 18,500 in an all seat mode and there isn't a bad seat in the entire venue. It has all the modern amenities for corporates and the like. It would be an absolutely perfect venue to clone and drop at Liverpool for the Tigers and Dogs to share. As a club venue it'd be fantastic because with 15,000 fans it'd be nearly full and have a great atmosphere and you could charge a premium for tickets in years when those clubs are doing well and playing rival teams. You could then play finals matches at CommBank or Homebush if you exepect massive crowds. You could also move that SW Sydney A-League team in and have a third tennant.

But, oh no no no, people *cough* Perth Red *cough* will cry. What about that one in ten year where they get 25,000 to a club game! Are we not a professional code? Should we not overspend massively on stadiums that will sit 40% empty for 95% of the games played there?

We're never going to be the AFL/NFL. We're never going to average 50,000 to club games. Television audiences are our bread and butter. So we should make going to the game as awesome experience as possible.
 

Perth Red

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68,263
It's also because there are too many people *cough* Perth Red *cough* who let perfect be the enemy of good.

Every new stadium has to be a CommBank Stadium clone or above or it's a joke and we're not a 'real' sports league.

Take Totally Wicked Stadium, St. Helens home ground. It seats 18,500 in an all seat mode and there isn't a bad seat in the entire venue. It has all the modern amenities for corporates and the like. It would be an absolutely perfect venue to clone and drop at Liverpool for the Tigers and Dogs to share. As a club venue it'd be fantastic because with 15,000 fans it'd be nearly full and have a great atmosphere and you could charge a premium for tickets in years when those clubs are doing well and playing rival teams. You could then play finals matches at CommBank or Homebush if you exepect massive crowds. You could also move that SW Sydney A-League team in and have a third tennant.

But, oh no no no, people *cough* Perth Red *cough* will cry. What about that one in ten year where they get 25,000 to a club game! Are we not a professional code? Should we not overspend massively on stadiums that will sit 40% empty for 95% of the games played there?

We're never going to be the AFL/NFL. We're never going to average 50,000 to club games. Television audiences are our bread and butter. So we should make going to the game as awesome experience as possible.
Sure if we want to have SL level revenue and crowds build SL standard stadiums! There is no reason NRL clubs cant be avg'ing 20k crowds if they have suitable sized venues.

Nice strawman by the way, no one is advocating for 50k stadiums. 25-30k is just fine to provide growth opportunities.
 

Timbo

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20,281
Sure if we want to have SL level revenue and crowds build SL standard stadiums! There is no reason NRL clubs cant be avg'ing 20k crowds if they have suitable sized venues.

Nice strawman by the way, no one is advocating for 50k stadiums. 25-30k is just fine to provide growth opportunities.

I imagine when the people running the Premier League and Major League Soccer see your posts they’ll go ‘My word, he’s right! What are we doing with these world class stadiums that hold less than 25,000! What a joke of a competition we are!’
 

Perth Red

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I imagine when the people running the Premier League and Major League Soccer see your posts they’ll go ‘My word, he’s right! What are we doing with these world class stadiums that hold less than 25,000! What a joke of a competition we are!’
I have no idea what argument you are trying to make here? lol
Most EPL clubs are not building 30k stadiums anymore, they are building 50k plus ones. Why? Because they want to grow their active customer base.
You seem to have no faith in the NRL product or its ability to grow its active fanbase. And they call me negative!
 

Canard

Immortal
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35,273
I have no idea what argument you are trying to make here? lol
Most EPL clubs are not building 30k stadiums anymore, they are building 50k plus ones. Why? Because they want to grow their active customer base.
You seem to have no faith in the NRL product or its ability to grow its active fanbase. And they call me negative!

There are 7 stadia in the Premier League that are >50k

With most being 40k and below (median wise around 30k)

 

Perth Red

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68,263
There are 7 stadia in the Premier League that are >50k

With most being 40k and below (median wise around 30k)

How many new ones have been built at less than 30K? Only one I can think of, Brentford and lets see how long they last on crowds of 17k.

16/20 stadiums are over 30k and over half are over 40k.

to get 20k crowd avg you need a 25k plus stadium for NRL games.

 
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Timbo

Moderator
Staff member
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20,281
I have no idea what argument you are trying to make here? lol
Most EPL clubs are not building 30k stadiums anymore, they are building 50k plus ones. Why? Because they want to grow their active customer base.
You seem to have no faith in the NRL product or its ability to grow its active fanbase. And they call me negative!

Noone is telling Bournemouth that they have to move their games up the road to Southampton or Crystal Palace/Fulham they have to play at Wembley because their capacity is too low. In fact, it adds to their home advantage and means they can charge a premium on ticket prices because they get snapped up faster.

There are four Premier League teams, and a further 12 in the Championship (the level below that gets promoted the Premier League) with capacities of <30,000. Nobody is saying 'oh, sorry, unfortunately we're a real sports league and real sports leagues have capacities of 30,000'. The Premier League has a requirement of 12,500 fans I believe, because they understand you'd rather have a full smaller stadium than an empty larger one.

As for 'room for growth' - the Dogs and Bunnies have been using Homebush for twenty years now. Shouldn't they have 'grown into it' by now?

No, wait - they'd both ideally like to move to a smaller stadium so their fans can have a better experience.
 

Wb1234

Immortal
Messages
31,182
It's also because there are too many people *cough* Perth Red *cough* who let perfect be the enemy of good.

Every new stadium has to be a CommBank Stadium clone or above or it's a joke and we're not a 'real' sports league.

Take Totally Wicked Stadium, St. Helens home ground. It seats 18,500 in an all seat mode and there isn't a bad seat in the entire venue. It has all the modern amenities for corporates and the like. It would be an absolutely perfect venue to clone and drop at Liverpool for the Tigers and Dogs to share. As a club venue it'd be fantastic because with 15,000 fans it'd be nearly full and have a great atmosphere and you could charge a premium for tickets in years when those clubs are doing well and playing rival teams. You could then play finals matches at CommBank or Homebush if you exepect massive crowds. You could also move that SW Sydney A-League team in and have a third tennant.

But, oh no no no, people *cough* Perth Red *cough* will cry. What about that one in ten year where they get 25,000 to a club game! Are we not a professional code? Should we not overspend massively on stadiums that will sit 40% empty for 95% of the games played there?

We're never going to be the AFL/NFL. We're never going to average 50,000 to club games. Television audiences are our bread and butter. So we should make going to the game as awesome experience as possible.
This is an excellent post but the dogs really can average 20k pretty easily

if we are building new stadia then it really should be a minimum of 25k

commbank looks fine even when it’s half full

spending 200 million on a new stadium holding under 20k is a pointless excercise

they might as well just keep them in their current grounds
 

Perth Red

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68,263
Noone is telling Bournemouth that they have to move their games up the road to Southampton or Crystal Palace/Fulham they have to play at Wembley because their capacity is too low. In fact, it adds to their home advantage and means they can charge a premium on ticket prices because they get snapped up faster.

There are four Premier League teams, and a further 12 in the Championship (the level below that gets promoted the Premier League) with capacities of <30,000. Nobody is saying 'oh, sorry, unfortunately we're a real sports league and real sports leagues have capacities of 30,000'. The Premier League has a requirement of 12,500 fans I believe, because they understand you'd rather have a full smaller stadium than an empty larger one.

As for 'room for growth' - the Dogs and Bunnies have been using Homebush for twenty years now. Shouldn't they have 'grown into it' by now?

No, wait - they'd both ideally like to move to a smaller stadium so their fans can have a better experience.
Again with the strawman, no one is suggesting playing in homebush sized stadiums is the answer. Playing in venues too large is equally as limiting as playing in venues too small. 25k-30k should be the ideal size for an NRL club aiming to hit a 20k crowd avg. And a 20k avg should be achievable for a premier level competition of a main sport in their city.

You reckon if you asked any of those EPl clubs playing in <30k stadiums if they'd like to move into a 30k plus stadium they'd say no? Lol. They have only not moved yet because they cant afford it or they have plans not yet realised, or they arent confident about remaining an EPL club or very long.

Anything above finishing in a relegation spot is a cup victory for those EPL clubs in small stadiums, sure if we want an NRL of have and have nots then have some clubs in commbanks and some clubs in Shark Parks.
 
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Messages
15,069
Noone is telling Bournemouth that they have to move their games up the road to Southampton or Crystal Palace/Fulham they have to play at Wembley because their capacity is too low. In fact, it adds to their home advantage and means they can charge a premium on ticket prices because they get snapped up faster.

There are four Premier League teams, and a further 12 in the Championship (the level below that gets promoted the Premier League) with capacities of <30,000. Nobody is saying 'oh, sorry, unfortunately we're a real sports league and real sports leagues have capacities of 30,000'. The Premier League has a requirement of 12,500 fans I believe, because they understand you'd rather have a full smaller stadium than an empty larger one.

As for 'room for growth' - the Dogs and Bunnies have been using Homebush for twenty years now. Shouldn't they have 'grown into it' by now?

No, wait - they'd both ideally like to move to a smaller stadium so their fans can have a better experience.

I don't think the EPL, nor the Championship, is a good comparison to be honest. Reason is many teams actually own their respective grounds. Further a number due to location do not have much room around them to permit upgrading it to larger capacities. Additionally, the largest clubs (e.g. Man Utd, Arsenal, Man City, Liverpool, Newcastle, Chelsea) in the EPL who have the strongest finances play in larger stadiums.

Please note, I'm not agreeing with PR, I rarely ever do. Just pointing out the flaw in that comparison is all.
 

Steel Saints

Juniors
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1,044
I don't think the EPL, nor the Championship, is a good comparison to be honest. Reason is many teams actually own their respective grounds. Further a number due to location do not have much room around them to permit upgrading it to larger capacities. Additionally, the largest clubs (e.g. Man Utd, Arsenal, Man City, Liverpool, Newcastle, Chelsea) in the EPL who have the strongest finances play in larger stadiums.

Please note, I'm not agreeing with PR, I rarely ever do. Just pointing out the flaw in that comparison is all.
The comparison, if anything, should be NRL to EFL.
 
Messages
3,224

latest developments in Canberras quest for a new stadium , hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Just because a stadium will fit on an otherwise vacant site doesn't mean its suitable ... as the photos show its a site surrounded by residential , narrow streets & nowhere to park .. like literally nowhere ..

I wonder if they've thought about building a stadium on lake burley griffen .. reclaim the land near Acton on that nthn shoreline near commonwealth ave northbound & parksway west, its shallow enough , & dredging the site wouldn't be an enormous exercise I wouldn't think
 

Vee

First Grade
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5,553

What do other Australian cities tell us about resolving Canberra Stadium's future?​

By James Vyver and Markus Mannheim

The question of whether the ACT needs a new sports stadium was widely debated during this year's federal election campaign. Former rugby union international David Pocock, who is now an ACT senator, campaigned for a venue to be built in the city's CBD. As recently as 2018, this was also the hope of the ACT's chief minister, Andrew Barr — though he now argues it's too costly. Meanwhile, former Liberal senator Zed Seselja said he wanted a smaller, boutique stadium in Tuggeranong in Canberra's south.

For now, the future of the ageing Canberra Stadium — which is approaching the end of its viable life — remains unresolved. But can we answer the question of what kind of stadium would best suit the national capital?

Venue has 'reached use-by date'​

Canberra Stadium, which is in the Australia Institute of Sport (AIS) precinct in Bruce, has few admirers.

Phoebe Morgan, who has attended Canberra Raiders rugby league matches since the 1980s, says the venue needs "a big overhaul". "The toilets, the food facilities, the facilities for the teams all need a big upgrade," she says.
Raiders chairman Dennis Richardson agrees the stadium has "reached its use-by date".

And former national basketball coach Carrie Graf, who is the University of Canberra's director of sport, says the venue is no longer up to scratch. "The toilets, the amenities are old and terrible, the food offerings are sub-par, it's not easy to get around the venue," Ms Graf says.

The stadium, now 45 years old, is among the oldest in the country. If it is to stay in use for much longer, it will need a significant — and no doubt very costly — refurbishment. But is a 25,000-seat facility the right one for Canberra? Can we tell from the experiences of other, similar-sized communities — like Newcastle, Townsville and the Gold Coast?

No communities are filling stadiums​

Canberra Stadium did not sell out once during the 2022 NRL season. In fact, while the season was relatively well-attended, on average just 43 per cent of the stadium's capacity was used. Neither the Newcastle International Sports Stadium nor Robina Stadium on the Gold Coast sold out either.

North Queensland Stadium, in Townsville, did have one sell-out crowd of 25,000 — it was helped by the fact that the city's NRL team, the Cowboys, played a home preliminary final.

The closest Canberra got to its 25,000-seat capacity was the Raiders' game against the Panthers in August, when 16,912 people turned up. Canberra's lowest crowd of the year was for the ACT Brumbies' Super Rugby quarter-final clash against the Hurricanes, which attracted just 4,752 people.

All of this begs the question: if Canberrans want a new stadium, shouldn't they fill their existing one first?

Ms Morgan puts low attendance down to the weather, saying many seats are not under the stand.
"So we all do sit out in the elements — but we're in Canberra, we're sort of used to that," she says. "The only thing I could think that they could do is build a stadium that could close a roof."

Women's sport matches in the ACT were comparatively well attended — though nowhere near enough to justify a large stadium. Canberra hosted two special women's rugby league fixtures this year. The Women's State of Origin between New South Wales and Queensland drew a crowd of 11,321. And 13,077 fans turned up for the Matildas' soccer clash against New Zealand. That match was the second in a two-game series; the other, in Townsville, attracted 10,779 people.

Build it, but will they come?​

Stadiums, of course, sit empty most of the time — sometimes they're barely used even when they're hosting a match. Mr Barr says that's partly why the cost of building a new stadium simply doesn't stack up.

How did Canberra Stadium become an election issue?​

Federal election candidates says Canberra lacks sporting facilities, and are turning the issue into an election debate.

The chief minister said in August one of the strongest arguments in favour of a new stadium in the CBD was its economic drawing power. "But it would only [happen] between 20 and 30 times a year, and that's the problem."

Also, most Australian stadiums operate at a loss, including Canberra's. Annual reports show the Bruce site did generate net revenue of $2.3 million in 2021-22 — but that doesn't factor in all of the stadium's costs, such as its construction.

Nonetheless, several new stadiums have been built in Australia in recent years, including in Townsville. During the 2016 federal election, both the governing Coalition and the Labor opposition promised the north Queensland city a stadium. It opened in 2019 with an Elton John concert, and would have hosted rock band Kiss two months ago had the Cowboys not made this year's NRL finals.

Ms Morgan says she'd love a similar venue in Canberra. "I'm very jealous, a stadium like that would be a great fit for us," she says. "The facilities are great, there's plenty of food outlets, there's stuff outside the ground that they can do."

Calls for new venue won't quieten​

With Canberra growing fast, talk of a new venue is unlikely to fade. Senator Pocock calls the existing site a "dead space" — too far from other facilities to attract people. "The last thing we need is a Homebush out at Bruce," he says.

Mr Richardson points out that a "national stadium" was part of Walter Burley Griffin's original plan for Canberra
"Quite clearly, as a national capital, having a new stadium is an important priority," he says. "But we need to do that cooperatively with the ACT government and with the federal government."

That won't be happening soon — and not only because of Mr Barr's position on the matter. The ACT's other governing party, the Greens, says community indoor sports facilities are a more pressing priority.

But others, like Ms Graf, say the two are not mutually exclusive. She says communities do benefit from large sports stadiums and those intangible benefits should be weighed up in addition to any budget considerations.
"If we see in other cities where there are new stadiums and the uplift that gives … it has a massive impact in terms of people choosing to go to games," she says.

 

The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,942

latest developments in Canberras quest for a new stadium , hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Just because a stadium will fit on an otherwise vacant site doesn't mean its suitable ... as the photos show its a site surrounded by residential , narrow streets & nowhere to park .. like literally nowhere ..
It also floods...
I wonder if they've thought about building a stadium on lake burley griffen .. reclaim the land near Acton on that nthn shoreline near commonwealth ave northbound & parksway west, its shallow enough , & dredging the site wouldn't be an enormous exercise I wouldn't think
Pipedream, then again any stadium in Civic is a pipedream.

People need to move on from Civic before other viable options are built over like it was.
 
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