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The Game Future NRL Stadiums part II

GAZF

First Grade
Messages
8,755
I don't work in those areas but my post grad studies were broad.

Not that it matters
It kind of does matter because you've claimed the position of expert and made mention of feasible alternatives without providing any details on said alternatives.
 

Quicksilver

Bench
Messages
4,361
It kind of does matter because you've claimed the position of expert and made mention of feasible alternatives without providing any details on said alternatives.

I've been talking about this for about a month. And I've tried to dissect each item as best possible with the limited information that is available. It has to be said that the government hasn't really provided much transparency in terms of alternatives either. And that is the REAL problem. Not some guy on the internet that is scratching his head about how this can make any kind of financial sense.

The Government want the SFS bulldozed as quick as possible to avoid scrutiny. They know if this is taken to an election they will be drilled on it. It's a public asset for God sake. It's not Gladys' toy. It is owned by all of us. The issue deserves proper scrutiny.

But it's ok. I'll just go along with the status quo and agree that everything is hunky dory on this project. It worked so well in the Eddie days of NSW. Of course, there's nothing suss at all about having to bulldoze 20-30 year old stadiums.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have some real work to do.
 

Quicksilver

Bench
Messages
4,361
So if people are killed in the stadium due to fire or structural failure and this report is presented in court....
Those who are responsible will be put behind bars....

That's not my point.

My point is that there is a huge amount of flexibility that can be applied when costing out these options.
 
Messages
15,483
I know I've mentioned this in the thread a few times about the NSW Parliamentary Committee that looked at the Stadia strategy before. However besides the report, they also make available the submissions they received and a few of them, whilst brief may interest some of you. Those of note -

Football Federation Australia
Netball NSW
NSW Government
National Rugby League
Australian Institute of Architects.

Interestingly, the ARU did not appear to make a submission. If you want to look over the full list of submission - https://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/c.../inquiry-details.aspx?pk=2483#tab-submissions

Be aware, people making submissions can request their name be supressed (and quite a few people did).
 

Timmah

LeagueUnlimited News Editor
Staff member
Messages
100,987
It's all well and good to defend the position and state that the ground doesn't need a rebuild. Each is entitled to their opinion. I don't know enough to say with certainty that it should be rebuilt but I know enough to say that doing nothing - which is currently what Labor is proposing - is stupidity.

Somehow instead of a reasoned, thought-out infrastucture approach, we have one side offering the sublime (LNP's knock-down re-build) and the other offering the ridiculous (Labor's NO MONEY FOR YOU STADIUMS, JUST SCHOOLS AND HOSPITALS PLS).

There's no middle ground, there's just two sides shouting at each other from polar opposites, and it's pathetic.
 

TheRam

Coach
Messages
13,898
I see it as pandering to the corrupt and powerful trust.

Saying "Ohhh well. Too late" about the central stadium proposal is such a slap in the face to the public interest.

I agree 1000% on this statement. The Central Station proposal would be the greatest strategical move that all the rectangular sports could ever make.

The fans would not get enough of it. It would turn sport on its head in this State finally. The amount of visitors and interest from all manner of peoples would continue to feed on itself to the point that I believe we would have at the very least a Suncorp Stadium type of full house every week.

There is no substitute for location and high quality venues. All the other stuff is just nonsense. They (the media, fans and NRL) keep asking how do we increase the plateaued attendance figures and they keep on trotting out same old, same old gibberish that will never capture the hearts and minds of the finicky Sydney public.

A stadium right on the very door step of our city with the trains running right up to the freaking door so to speak would address everything and makes even the casual passer by think, hey wow I like to go and get some of that action I can hear and see over there.

But I have said it before, I reckon you'll get at least around 5000 people rocking up to a game on a Friday night straight from work with work mates on the piss looking to find some entertainment. New tourist live in the city by the tens of thousands each week. You don't think that it would become a tourist must see once in a lifetime experience while visiting a great city like Sydney and take in our local footy/sport/attractions?

The easy promotion of such a venue would make even the most incompetent NRL admin seem like they are geniuses. But this will never ever materialise course the NRL is cursed with incompetence, self interest and negative outside interests.
 

franklin2323

Immortal
Messages
33,546
A game goes for 80 mins. The problem with any CBD stadium is the travel there and back will take longer then the actual game. No lower grades now so you literally get warm ups and the game. a nice shiny new ground will do only so much but it is a good improvement
 

TheRam

Coach
Messages
13,898
A game goes for 80 mins. The problem with any CBD stadium is the travel there and back will take longer then the actual game. No lower grades now so you literally get warm ups and the game. a nice shiny new ground will do only so much but it is a good improvement

Your logic is flawed. We aren't talking about your Panthers making it their home base mate, or even the Western based teams per se. We're talking about Roosters, Bunnies(sometimes), Eagles(sometimes) Tigers(sometimes) Doggies(sometimes) Dragons(sometimes) and even Sharks(sometimes).

What I mean by "sometimes" is that depending who each team plays, I can see these teams electing to take at least 3 or 4 of their home games to this new perfectly located venue. They would see dollar sign the size of billboards in front of their eyes, that it would be to irresistible not to wrangle some of it for their own club.

The only teams that may not opt to do this on any regular basis would probably be Parramatta and Penrith for obvious reasons.

Then you also have the Sydney FC and the Waratahs. We are talking about at least 50 odd footy games a year of all codes utilising it. And when you think that it would be mostly between 20-30k crowds every game what a wonderful investment for our city that would truly be. Also the knock on effect to the local business community would be staggering.

If only this were ever given the green light. :( :mad:
 
Messages
15,483
The following was published by the Sydney Morning Herald -

Unpalatable truths on stadiums facing both Labor and Liberals
By Roy Masters
11 December 2018 — 6:00pm

Neville Wran once said, “Sometimes you get things so wrong, you have to eat a shit sandwich. It tastes bloody awful but it’s good for you.”

The former NSW Premier made the statement during an internal Labor Party squabble over admitting MLCs to caucus meetings, but Rodney Cavalier quoted it in the context of sporting stadiums.

It was November, 2001 and Cavalier, a former minister in the Wran and Unsworth Governments, had been the chair of the Sydney Cricket and Sports Ground Trust for only a few months.

The Sydney Football Stadium had been operational for 13 years and the Olympic Stadium at Homebush in use for only two years.

Cavalier made some frank admissions to a business planning forum organised by the Trust and focussed on the future of stadiums.

Referring to the NSW Labor cabinet which agreed to build the SFS, he said, “It does not seem to have occurred to this cabinet to ponder why it was that a Trust which was headed by a serving cabinet minister (Industrial Relations, Pat Hills) and why a cabinet which had a minister for sport who had represented his country in three sports (Michael Cleary) decided that Sydney did not require a stadium with a seating capacity greater than 42,000. Or why no one asked how Sydney could ever hope to fill a stadium of any greater size on a sufficiently regular basis so as to meet the costs of opening such a large stadium.”

Cavalier was having a shot at himself as well. He was also a member of the cabinet which made the decision to cap the SFS capacity at 42,000. As Cavalier says today, “The original plan had it at 30,000. Forty two thousand seemed too big.” An Olympic stadium was not on any agenda.

Given the voting numbers on the Australian Olympic Committee back then, Melbourne had a greater chance of hosting a second Olympics than Sydney had of staging its first.

Towards the end of his 2001 address, Cavalier made reference to the Homebush stadium, built for the opening ceremony of the 2000 Olympics but whose crowds declined sharply afterwards because patrons needed telescopes to see the action and some needed Google Earth to find it.

“By the ANZAC weekend of 2000 (a badly attended NRL double-header), no one who knows their sport was pretending it (Homebush) was the place to view football,” Cavalier said.

The point about all this? It’s bloody hard to make the right decisions about stadiums.

The AFL, whom some in the media deem the gold standard of sports, built a stadium at Waverley because it was the geographical centre of metropolitan Melbourne. Echoes of Homebush? But fans hated it because it was in a rain belt and not well served by public transport.

But the AFL did extract a better deal from the MCG Trust. They then sold the land, negotiated with the Victorian Government to build a new stadium at Docklands in the CBD and now own it, courtesy of a taxpayer funded grant conditional on playing the AFL grand final at the MCG for the next 40 years.

Shortly after the SFS was built, the NSW Greiner Government considered selling it to the Australian Rugby League who would relocate there, funding the purchase by the sale of the Phillip Street headquarters of the code. Given the paltry $15.5m the code received from a developer for the sale of the Phillip Street premises in 2013, buying the SFS wouldn’t have been such a bad idea.

However, the incumbent NSW Government now want to pull the SFS down and build a new one on the same site. Opposition leader Michael Daley says that if elected, he will not spend a cent on demolition, or reconstruction.
The Liberal Government will probably lose the March election if the SFS is demolished and Labor’s “hospitals and schools” pledge will mean NSW continues to be the sick man of Australian sport, certainly in terms of modern facilities.

Cavalier is sympathetic, saying, “It’s very hard to predict the future and even harder to control it.”

But decisions should be made on commercial realities, not politics. The existing SFS is rarely sold out, while cricket and the Swans know they have no future at Homebush. The market is saying Sydney needs a smaller SFS and a rectangular stadium at Homebush.

Yet the Liberal government headed by Premier Gladys Berejiklian prefers a 45,000-seat SFS and Daley a hole in the ground at Moore Park, while both parties will leave Homebush circular, ignoring the fact 85 percent of the future sporting content in Sydney is played on a rectangular field.

Someone will soon have to take a bite of Wran’s shit sandwich.
 

franklin2323

Immortal
Messages
33,546
Your logic is flawed. We aren't talking about your Panthers making it their home base mate, or even the Western based teams per se. We're talking about Roosters, Bunnies(sometimes), Eagles(sometimes) Tigers(sometimes) Doggies(sometimes) Dragons(sometimes) and even Sharks(sometimes).

What I mean by "sometimes" is that depending who each team plays, I can see these teams electing to take at least 3 or 4 of their home games to this new perfectly located venue. They would see dollar sign the size of billboards in front of their eyes, that it would be to irresistible not to wrangle some of it for their own club.

The only teams that may not opt to do this on any regular basis would probably be Parramatta and Penrith for obvious reasons.

Then you also have the Sydney FC and the Waratahs. We are talking about at least 50 odd footy games a year of all codes utilising it. And when you think that it would be mostly between 20-30k crowds every game what a wonderful investment for our city that would truly be. Also the knock on effect to the local business community would be staggering.

If only this were ever given the green light. :( :mad:

Why would let's say Parra v Dogs fans go to a new stadium in the CBD on a Thurs night or 6pm Friday?

What it would be good for is the big events. Especially with the same food improvements WSS has.

The NRL needs the TV money even more so to do something like this. Problem is those times are poor for fans
 
Messages
4,204
Why would let's say Parra v Dogs fans go to a new stadium in the CBD on a Thurs night or 6pm Friday?

What it would be good for is the big events. Especially with the same food improvements WSS has.

The NRL needs the TV money even more so to do something like this. Problem is those times are poor for fans

They wouldn't and you're missing the point.
 

franklin2323

Immortal
Messages
33,546
They wouldn't and you're missing the point.

What is the point then? Sydney needs a quality stadium in the CBD don't get Mt wrong. Parra is more closer to where people live. WSS is the one that pretty much all those teams will choose. So for an NRL point of view. I don't see what changes for usage of it
 
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Messages
4,204
What is the point then? Sydney needs a quality stadium in the CBD don't get Mt wrong. Parra is more closer to where people live. WSS is the one that pretty much all those teams will choose. So for an NRL point of view. I don't see what changes for usage of it

We are discussing the possible value in a stadium at Central over a Moore Park knock down and rebuild.

One of the potential advantages would that most Sydney clubs and the league in general could do well in such a venue given the right fixture and scheduling. That's certainly not the case for the SFS.
 
Messages
15,483
We are discussing the possible value in a stadium at Central over a Moore Park knock down and rebuild.

One of the potential advantages would that most Sydney clubs and the league in general could do well in such a venue given the right fixture and scheduling. That's certainly not the case for the SFS.

A stadium at central? Really? How high in the air are you going to put this stadium? Central Station is mostly above ground especially the area where the inter-city trains terminate. I doubt it would be cheap, and you would quite possibly disrupt the entire Sydney trains network as all rail lines intersect at Central Station. I go through there every working day and there is no where to put a construction zone for such a project on the available land around the station.

Unless you can show how this would be done easily and cost effectively, I think it is a pie in the sky idea that it will ever be considered let alone get the go ahead.
 

franklin2323

Immortal
Messages
33,546
We are discussing the possible value in a stadium at Central over a Moore Park knock down and rebuild.

One of the potential advantages would that most Sydney clubs and the league in general could do well in such a venue given the right fixture and scheduling. That's certainly not the case for the SFS.

Light rail to the door. Easier access to the ground for those driving in. Access to Moore Park isn't the issue
 

Timbo

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
20,281
A stadium at central? Really? How high in the air are you going to put this stadium? Central Station is mostly above ground especially the area where the inter-city trains terminate. I doubt it would be cheap, and you would quite possibly disrupt the entire Sydney trains network as all rail lines intersect at Central Station. I go through there every working day and there is no where to put a construction zone for such a project on the available land around the station.

Unless you can show how this would be done easily and cost effectively, I think it is a pie in the sky idea that it will ever be considered let alone get the go ahead.

You'd also have to wipe out a large amount of green space which is already quite rare. Cost + massive public backlash means that this is about as likely as a stadium on the moon.

It's also only 1.9 km from Central to the SFS. If that's too far for you than I really don't know what can be done to help.
 
Messages
4,204
A stadium at central? Really? How high in the air are you going to put this stadium? Central Station is mostly above ground especially the area where the inter-city trains terminate. I doubt it would be cheap, and you would quite possibly disrupt the entire Sydney trains network as all rail lines intersect at Central Station. I go through there every working day and there is no where to put a construction zone for such a project on the available land around the station.

Unless you can show how this would be done easily and cost effectively, I think it is a pie in the sky idea that it will ever be considered let alone get the go ahead.

Jesus Christ. We're talking around in circles here.

https://architectureau.com/articles...m-over-rail-yards-at-sydneys-central-station/

In general, reclamation of airspace over railyards is pretty standard practice in major cities.
 
Messages
4,204
Light rail to the door. Easier access to the ground for those driving in. Access to Moore Park isn't the issue

Light rail is already projected to be running at 110% of capacity on Thursday and Friday evenings so wont provide greatly improved access for many events.

Sydney's car dependency is part of the problem when it comes to the city's lacklustre culture of event attendance.
That it is common to drive to major events in the first place is an embarrassment for a major global city.
Something you would never hear - "Alright guys. Hop in the car. We're off to the Arsenal/Tottenham/Chelsea/West Ham/Fulham/Palace/Charlton/Milwall/QPR game" - or to any theatre, gallery or gig for that matter.

Granted, the PT infrastructure is a shambles but we really do need to be looking at integrated infrastructure which allows Sydney to move its population and thus increase vibrancy and event attendance. Metro West to Olympic Park will increase event attendance there drastically.

The idea of investing $780 million on a brand new stadium that is not on heavy rail or an MRT system is dumb-f**kery of the highest order.
 

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