General Discussion Thread

[Pomoz]

I forgot to add, I don't accept he was demonstrating there is more than one person responsible for the roster. If you are the coach, team outcomes are your responsibility regardless of the resources you are given. By saying it's not my roster he has essentially said "not my team, not my fault". It came across as being, weak and defensive. The team probably think they have been thrown under the bus.

 

[OldPanther]

I forgot to add, I don't accept he was demonstrating there is more than one person responsible for the roster. If you are the coach, team outcomes are your responsibility regardless of the resources you are given. By saying it's not my roster he has essentially said "not my team, not my fault". It came across as being, weak and defensive. The team probably think they have been thrown under the bus.

He included the fact that there is a committee of sorts so I figure that's what he meant.

 

[franklin2323]

Unbelievable that Luai is being written off already. Being young and in the halves he will be a mixed bag to start his career. But he has shown more than enough to suggest he could be a good longterm NRL player.

Obviously some players die off as they settle into first grade..while others learn and improve. But until he gets a full pre-season in and some full games at 6 we really dont know for sure how he will develop.

IMO he and Cleary will both look better in 2020 after they find a way to combine well. Right now our best combination is Jimmy runs the team and his partner lets him. Because Jimmy when he's firing is one of the best in the competition and we can't have kids overruling him and holding him back.

Maybe things will get worse when he leaves. Personally I think it depends on how we use his money. We can survive just fine without him... as long as we strengthen what is a very weak roster for 2020.

We've released a lot of experienced players and cant fill all the gaps with the next guy we need to spend 100 games developing only to release.

Exactly what Dave's mate said. He is no closer to being a FG half then he was this time last year...Feels like a wasted year of his development

 

[franklin2323]

I'm also of the belief that he'd make a good halfback. He talks a hell of a lot more than most players, directing others quite often. Its a skill that Nathan Cleary appears to lack and why I can't see him giving us the 'structure' that all teams talk about.

Luai is no Benji Marshall but if he can find the right balance he is a long-term half. We missed the boat not giving him more time there this year. Too late now.

Even early on when he was in NSW Cup he didn't play a full 80 as half and things like not making dumb decisions under fatigue. Getting targetted in defence etc is all part of learning to run a side which is missed

 

[TL51]

Good hypothesis that makes logical sense. However, if what you say is true, then it reflects poorly on the club that they would hire Cleary just to keep his son. No player is bigger than the club and if Nathan left because his Dad wasn't coach then so be it. Cleary simply wasn't the best coach available at the time he was hired, the club failed to run a proper recruitment process. Why? Only they can answer that but being Dave's mate seems to help.

The hiring of Cleary and taking control are not dependant on each other. They could have taken control and put in a retention committee all without selecting a 49% win rate coach.

The hiring of Ivan, and Nathan’s new contract, may have been completely independent of one another as well. Completely agree with you that no one player should be bigger than the club. No club should be run like that. It would lack professionalism.

The ‘talks’ with Ivan that led to his appointment were a shambles with O’Neill going in one direction and Gus in another and the timing was atrocious with finals around the corner. However, the board did get who they wanted, not Gus. That signals to me that the board were confident Ivan was the coach they could trust and work with as a team, both on and off the paddock. Maybe the issues Wayne was having with the Broncos at the time, and his standoff with Paul White, played into their decision. Just as Gus was working independently, maybe the board felt Wayne would do the same. Or that a Bennett appointment, with he and Gus’ long term differences of opinion, may cause unnecessary friction, unwanted attention and distraction and end in disaster? Perhaps they wanted a longer term appointment? Or perhaps the board felt the only way they could get full control of the club was to employ their choice of coach in Ivan. What has been reported is even after the establishing the recruitment and retention committee and getting the coach they wanted, Gus still went and did his own thing, upgrading contracts without consultation. When told that was not how things would be done now, he left. Employing Ivan, someone they knew and had worked with before, gave the board reassurance they could work together as a group to control the future direction of the club.

 

[Panther FIRE]

Good hypothesis that makes logical sense. However, if what you say is true, then it reflects poorly on the club that they would hire Cleary just to keep his son. No player is bigger than the club and if Nathan left because his Dad wasn't coach then so be it. Cleary simply wasn't the best coach available at the time he was hired, the club failed to run a proper recruitment process. Why? Only they can answer that but being Dave's mate seems to help.

The hiring of Cleary and taking control are not dependant on each other. They could have taken control and put in a retention committee all without selecting a 49% win rate coach.

Particularly when there were two coaches on the market that were worth at least interviewing.

 

[TL51]

I forgot to add, I don't accept he was demonstrating there is more than one person responsible for the roster. If you are the coach, team outcomes are your responsibility regardless of the resources you are given. By saying it's not my roster he has essentially said "not my team, not my fault". It came across as being, weak and defensive. The team probably think they have been thrown under the bus.

Point taken. I viewed it as Ivan saying he was working as part of a team. The quote “it’s not my roster” didn’t include Ivan’s subsequent elaboration, but does give Fox the clicks and drama they want. I am probably in the minority, but I thought doing the interview showed strength of character not weakness.

 

[Abacus]

Alright, time to put some pressure on Jerome's shoulders. Something about him reminds me of a young Thurston.

It might be his unconventional style or the way he looks for gaps across the defensive line. Thurston never got much opportunity with the Dogs then headed to the Cows where he eventually became 1 of the game's best halves.

I think Luai will be similar in that he'll need a fair bit of footy under his belt to be fairly judged. I also think he will need to be the dominant half - I'm not necessarily knocking Nathan, but the ball in Luai's hands is more dangerous than in Nathan's.

Anyway, I feel like a merkin for putting that wrap on him but had to say it.

 

[franklin2323]

Alright, time to put some pressure on Jerome's shoulders. Something about him reminds me of a young Thurston.

It might be his unconventional style or the way he looks for gaps across the defensive line. Thurston never got much opportunity with the Dogs then headed to the Cows where he eventually became 1 of the game's best halves.

I think Luai will be similar in that he'll need a fair bit of footy under his belt to be fairly judged. I also think he will need to be the dominant half - I'm not necessarily knocking Nathan, but the ball in Luai's hands is more dangerous than in Nathan's.

Anyway, I feel like a merkin for putting that wrap on him but had to say it.

Wasn't similar said about TMM at some stage?

 

[OldPanther]

Wasn't similar said about TMM at some stage?

Don't think so.

 

[TheFrog]

Alright, time to put some pressure on Jerome's shoulders. Something about him reminds me of a young Thurston.

Geeze I hope you're right.

 

[Pomoz]

.... Employing Ivan, someone they knew and had worked with before, gave the board reassurance they could work together as a group to control the future direction of the club.

It's a pretty poor reason to hire him and the club will have to deal with the inevitable failure (I hope I'm wrong, but the signs aren't good). I can absolutely believe Gus is the type of person who would just go and do what he thought was right and I could be wrong here, he probably thought Dave and the CEO don't know what they are doing when it comes to football and particularly in choosing players. Irregardless of what Gus thought, it's not the way to run a club and I can understand why the board were miffed. Hiring a warm, cuddly friendly Ivan because they are scared of Bennett, Hasler or Maguire is hardly the solution though.

 

[herbert henry1908]

It's a pretty poor reason to hire him and the club will have to deal with the inevitable failure (I hope I'm wrong, but the signs aren't good). I can absolutely believe Gus is the type of person who would just go and do what he thought was right and I could be wrong here, he probably thought Dave and the CEO don't know what they are doing when it comes to football and particularly in choosing players. Irregardless of what Gus thought, it's not the way to run a club and I can understand why the board were miffed. Hiring a warm, cuddly friendly Ivan because they are scared of Bennett, Hasler or Maguire is hardly the solution though.

I agree with this, but consider what the board had seen in how Gus operated. He didn’t conduct a thorough search for a coach, so it can’t be a huge surprise that the board didn’t do the same.

Unfortunately good hiring processes were not one of Gus’ legacies at the club.

 

[forby]

Hasler and Bennett both leave clubs in a mess. They look at on field immediate success as the be all! They dont care less about lower grades or juniors, and when they dont get it they jump ship.
I dont want that type of coach at Penrith.

 

[herbert henry1908]

Hasler and Bennett both leave clubs in a mess. They look at on field immediate success as the be all! They dont care less about lower grades or juniors, and when they dont get it they jump ship.
I dont want that type of coach at Penrith.

For a club with as little on field success as us, it is almost the be all and end all.


The choice between Cleary and Bennett is a no brainer for me, plus Bennett would’ve brought Jason Demetriou to hand over to.

 

[forby]

Look how long it took Newcastle to get back to where they are. StGeorge are still struggling. The Bulldogs haven't even started to recover. Is that what you want for a one year success?

 

[age.s]

Point taken. I viewed it as Ivan saying he was working as part of a team. The quote “it’s not my roster” didn’t include Ivan’s subsequent elaboration, but does give Fox the clicks and drama they want. I am probably in the minority, but I thought doing the interview showed strength of character not weakness.

Firstly, I completely agree that it took guts to front up the way he did. It would have been tough and he deserves credit for that.

But he could have done much better with the roster question. How about words to the effect of "we (the committee) felt that the moves we made this year were appropriate given ongoing cap considerations and the needs of the squad." He could even point out that the squad just came off a 7 game win streak. But "not my squad" and "hey there are other people making decisions too" felt very evasive and (as mentioned by others) likely to provoke a negative reaction in at least some of the guys who have to put on the jersey in a few days time.

Other than that I thought he generally went ok. He looked nervous though. I think his confidence has been severely rocked this year. I know it's popular to rag on him, but I don't think he's as bad a coach as he's shown in this second stint. I'd never thought about it this way, but watching him go through that it struck me that coaches almost certainly go through form slumps in the same way players do and he was likely going through one here. Hopefully things settle down for him next year.

I trust him over Raymond on what happened in the tunnel too. Cleary played Kent outright calling him a liar with a ton of class, pointing out that he wasnt the one accusing anyone of anything.

What pieces of slime those two are.

 

[herbert henry1908]

Look how long it took Newcastle to get back to where they are. StGeorge are still struggling. The Bulldogs haven't even started to recover. Is that what you want for a one year success?

This presumes all the conditions are the same.

Gus has put in junior systems that are supposed to survive well into the future, the club has instituted a recruitment & retention committee so that a single person can't make the big calls.

 

[Pomoz]

Look how long it took Newcastle to get back to where they are. StGeorge are still struggling. The Bulldogs haven't even started to recover. Is that what you want for a one year success?

I hear you Forby, but Hasler gave the Dogs four or five years of success including making a grand final. He was never allowed to stay and manage the squad he had been building, so whether he left it in a mess, or alternatively the club mismanaged what he left behind will never be known. The board's infighting, messy signing and release of Woods has me lean towards the club making mistakes not Hasler leaving a mess. He has a history of sustained success. Remember they said he left Manly in a mess, but lo and behold the very same people hired him back again, what does that tell you?

As for Bennett, you have to remember the Knights were as stupid as the Panthers. They hired an ex player (Matt Gidley) to be CEO (we hired Corey Payne), a man with no experience as a CEO. A man who not two years earlier was running round in USper League playing as a centre. How could he possibly have any experience as a CEO? Unlike the Panthers, they didn't realise their mistake and sack him, they left him as CEO for four years. They hired Rick Stone as the coach after Bennett, a man Bennett told them not to hire because he didn't think he was good enough. They ignored him and a few years later sacked him. I have absolutely no confidence that the Knights managed that team well. Bennett on the other hand has a proven record of success everywhere he goes. Teams make the semi finals and grand finals. The Knights haven't been in the finals since Bennett left. Coincidence, or he left the place in a a mess? The Knights must look much closer to home if they want to understand who stuffed their club.

 

[forby]

What about St George? He left their pathways a complete mess.
A lot of Canterbury's current issues are directly attributable to Hasler and his player policy. He doesn't believe that you can have junior development, only buy whoever he wants with no eye to the future.