Greenberg wants 2nd Melb team

[LeagueXIII]

Stallion if Sydney is soooo important and the game cant survive without its oversaturation can you explain why we keep seeing sub 15k crowds for Sydney team games? The predictions for this weekend are pretty sad EXCEPT for the Sydney clubs! 39k turning up to the NRL in Perth last week, Brisbane selling out, 20k predicted in Melbourne. Sydney top crowd last week was? You can ignore over saturation as much as you like but the evidence is there for all to see.

It's not the crowds it's the TV audience that drives the big bucks that supports the game, weaken Sydney and you can kiss this good bye. Already the super league war allowed union and AFL the chance to get a look in when before they had nothing but crumbs.

 

[The Great Dane]

Firstly f@ck you and your consistent disrespect tobthis great codeand its well known and loved clubs! You are a destructive, ignorant and dumb turd!

Who's being disrespectful? Who's being destructive? Who's consistently disrespectful to the well know and loved clubs? Look in the mirror mate!

We just want one club for our cities in the national comp, you want frigging 10+, and you want it at the expense of our cities and the growth of the sport! Yet you think we are the ones being disrespectful!

If you want to watch a Sydney based competition then cool go do it, multiple exist, the biggest is called the NSW cup, I know it's a misnomer, you'll probably like that though since you want to turn the NRL into even more of a misnomer then it already is by turning it into a Sydney competition as well, there're plenty of clubs that'd love the support, hell you could even follow the Bears! Scratch that I wouldn't want to be even tangentially associated with you, so you can't follow the Bears, but your beloved CC is represented so why don't you go support the Wyong Roos, I'm sure they could use the support.

By the way if you care so much about the sports history and traditions why don't you tell me some history about RL in Canberra, why don't we start easy but obscure enough that it can't be easily Googled... What is the historical reason for the colour lime green in the Raiders colour palette? To hard? How about which local club did the Raiders grow out of? What's the most successful ACT/surrounding regions club? Can you even name any of the local clubs at all?

 

[The Great Dane]

You are the one advocating the carving up of existing top flight rugby league clubs! NOT ME!

No I'm not!

I've never suggested that any club should be folded, nor would I. You just made that up, you pulled it out of your arse along with pretty much everything else you say!

 

[The Great Dane]

It's not the crowds it's the TV audience that drives the big bucks that supports the game, weaken Sydney and you can kiss this good bye. Already the super league war allowed union and AFL the chance to get a look in when before they had nothing but crumbs.

I can't find the numbers right now, but I'm 99.99% certain that the Broncos are the highest rating NRL club by a fair margin, I'm also pretty sure that both the Cowboys and Storm out rate most of the Sydney NRL clubs.

Although these aren't viewership numbers I think that these numbers are pretty damning as well-
http://www.roymorgan.com/findings/7344-nrl-supporters-ladder-2017-201709221418

But I'd love to see your numbers if you've got them.

BTW there's no hard evidence that I've ever seen that the SL war lead to measurable increased growth for either the AFL or Union in Sydney (or anywhere else for that matter), in fact all the evidence I've seen shows that the AFL has followed their projected growth almost exactly as it was forecast and that Rugby Union has actually completely shit the bed on their projected growth since the founding of Super and the 03 RWC with them seeing a boom period after Super was introduced and the 03 RWC and completely utterly failing to capitalise on that growth since then and have probably actually receded since then, and though I haven't actually see the number to suggest that they have lost ground to where they were prior to the introduction of Super I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case...

But if you've got hard evidence to the contrary I'd love to see it.

 

[RedVee]

I hesitate to jump in but I’d just like to add that while Sydney has grown a lot, it has arguably been at the expense of traditional rugby league followers.
I read recently that in the mid 70s (1976?) 4% of Sydney’s population was born overseas, and that it was now 40% of a much larger population. Granted some of those will be RL aware, but even so this must have some effect on the Sydney clubs viability, if only on attendance.

 

[Perth Red]

It's not the crowds it's the TV audience that drives the big bucks that supports the game, weaken Sydney and you can kiss this good bye. Already the super league war allowed union and AFL the chance to get a look in when before they had nothing but crumbs.

tv audiences are pretty steady for games on pay tv and fta for sydney and non Sydney clubs. By population the tv audience in Sydney compared to Brisbane is pretty poor.

Re value of fanbase, there’s a lot more money for clubs to make from fans than from tv grants.

 

[Stallion]

Who's being disrespectful? Who's being destructive? Who's consistently disrespectful to the well know and loved clubs? Look in the mirror mate!

We just want one club for our cities in the national comp, you want frigging 10+, and you want it at the expense of our cities and the growth of the sport! Yet you think we are the ones being disrespectful!

If you want to watch a Sydney based competition then cool go do it, multiple exist, the biggest is called the NSW cup, I know it's a misnomer, you'll probably like that though since you want to turn the NRL into even more of a misnomer then it already is by turning it into a Sydney competition as well, there're plenty of clubs that'd love the support, hell you could even follow the Bears! Scratch that I wouldn't want to be even tangentially associated with you, so you can't follow the Bears, but your beloved CC is represented so why don't you go support the Wyong Roos, I'm sure they could use the support.

By the way if you care so much about the sports history and traditions why don't you tell me some history about RL in Canberra, why don't we start easy but obscure enough that it can't be easily Googled... What is the historical reason for the colour lime green in the Raiders colour palette? To hard? How about which local club did the Raiders grow out of? What's the most successful ACT/surrounding regions club? Can you even name any of the local clubs at all?

How dumb !? Are you aware that both the AFL and NRL originate and are based in the cities of Melbourne and for the NRL in Sydney. These foundations are the whole reason and impetus that have lead to growing into bigger competitions . Their origins are what make these competitions what they are. You mention that you are not ridding them(the Sydney clubs) from existence, yet you, in you smiling assassin way, will rid such clubs from the top flight competition , which is oblivian! You disenfranchise and disrespect the origins you also destroy credibility and longtime notoriety and recognition. Amazingly dumb stance from you "dumbdane"!

 

[Stallion]

I can't find the numbers right now, but I'm 99.99% certain that the Broncos are the highest rating NRL club by a fair margin, I'm also pretty sure that both the Cowboys and Storm out rate most of the Sydney NRL clubs.

Although these aren't viewership numbers I think that these numbers are pretty damning as well-
http://www.roymorgan.com/findings/7344-nrl-supporters-ladder-2017-201709221418

But I'd love to see your numbers if you've got them.

BTW there's no hard evidence that I've ever seen that the SL war lead to measurable increased growth for either the AFL or Union in Sydney (or anywhere else for that matter), in fact all the evidence I've seen shows that the AFL has followed their projected growth almost exactly as it was forecast and that Rugby Union has actually completely shit the bed on their projected growth since the founding of Super and the 03 RWC with them seeing a boom period after Super was introduced and the 03 RWC and completely utterly failing to capitalise on that growth since then and have probably actually receded since then, and though I haven't actually see the number to suggest that they have lost ground to where they were prior to the introduction of Super I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case...

But if you've got hard evidence to the contrary I'd love to see it.

Lol. If you dont think other codes have benefitted from the superleague fiasco you are dead set a plant from another code!

 

[titoelcolombiano]

tv audiences are pretty steady for games on pay tv and fta for sydney and non Sydney clubs. By population the tv audience in Sydney compared to Brisbane is pretty poor.

Re value of fanbase, there’s a lot more money for clubs to make from fans than from tv grants.

Not to mention that our Melbourne TV audience has significantly grown over the last two decades and we get quite large TV ratings for big Melbourne Storm, SOO & GF's in Melbourne now too. Same could be achieved in Perth if we grow the game instead of hanging on to under-performing clubs in an oversaturated market.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

So wrong!

Quite correct actually. Parra, Dogs, Souths, Dragons & (maybe) Tigers should really be powerhouse clubs up there with Essendon, Collingwood & Carlton but they are not, they are struggling in an oversaturated market.

The other Sydney clubs aren't on the same level as the big five. I'm certainly not suggesting that all of the rest of them get axed but we could certainly start by moving the Roosters to Central Coast and Dragons to Wollongong. These two teams will create more room in Sydney for the others but still maintain a presence in the NRL and still play plenty of games in Sydney for their fans to attend (and could also sell away memberships in conjunction with the other Sydney clubs). The Dragons and Roosters could play one heratige match in Sydney each plus the ANZAC match at Allianz also.

Once this has happened you have seven Sydney clubs. I would bite the bullet and introduce a major stadium policy which moves all clubs to one of the three major venues in Sydney; new Parramatta Stadium, new ANZ or new Allianz. It is time to move into the future. All clubs that have embraced ANZ (even in it's current configuration which is not great for viewing) have increased their crowd averages. We might think that the dogs have ''poor crowds'' of 15k at ANZ but the fact is that if all games were played at Belmore their average would be much less over a full season. I think you would find the same would happen with all clubs (including Manly) if you made the decision to play at one of the three new stadia once built.

So there we go - we have consolidated NSW (Newcastle, Central Coast, Sydney (only 7 clubs all playing out of brand new, state-of-the-art stadia) & Wollongong. No damage to the game, no teams relegated but the Bears are not required.

Any Sydney clubs that can't succeed from then on should be demoted to the NSW Cup and they will have no one else to blame but themselves - this is not a forced demotion, any club that finds themselves in this situation after:

• NRL grants that are 130% of the salary cap
• the NRL capping player and football department spending
• enforcing best practice management at clubs
  
• getting a new stadium

Then they simply don't deserve a spot in the top flight or they are just not popular enough to be in the NRL. We can then move on with developing a new market like Perth. I think what you fail to see is that the best of your beloved Sydney clubs will benefit too by reducing numbers in Sydney.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

Misrepresenting won't get you anywhere! Got no gripes with the expansion clubs provided implosion of well known and relevant Sydney clubs is not the price of what you people think is "exoansion" Genuine expansion can happen without dilution in an area that had 6million people and clubs of universal recognition.

Honest question, how many clubs do you think the NRL can viably support? Because we've done 20 before and the ARL (even before the disasters of SL had taken their full effect) admitted that there were too many clubs.

 

[Stallion]

Honest question, how many clubs do you think the NRL can viably support? Because we've done 20 before and the ARL (even before the disasters of SL had taken their full effect) admitted that there were too many clubs.

20 team comp was sabotaged by superleague!

 

[titoelcolombiano]

20 team comp was sabotaged by superleague!

Yes, to an extent but I think there was more to it than that. The ARL admitted that there were too many teams and Perth were always going to struggle being sustainable whilst paying travel for all visiting teams. Plus there were 11 Sydney clubs and this was never going to work moving foward It wasn't quite set up correctly.

Do you believe that we should revisit 20 teams? I personally would like 20 (all existing teams plus room for Perth, Brisbane 2, NZ 2 and Adelaide. Roosters to CC, Dragons to Illawarra to reduce oversaturation in Sydney) but we will have to significantly increase revenue to achieve it. I don't know how the NRL will achieve this and I don't know if they have the vision to pull it off (I'll reserve judgement on Beattie until he's had a fair go) - we are really none the wiser which way they will go on the topic.

 

[siv]

Honest question, how many clubs do you think the NRL can viably support? Because we've done 20 before and the ARL (even before the disasters of SL had taken their full effect) admitted that there were too many clubs.

18 teams - 25 rounds

Two pools of 9

Sydney pool
Regional pool

 

[LeagueXIII]

tv audiences are pretty steady for games on pay tv and fta for sydney and non Sydney clubs. By population the tv audience in Sydney compared to Brisbane is pretty poor.

Re value of fanbase, there’s a lot more money for clubs to make from fans than from tv grants.

It's the penetration into Sydney that TV companies are after, why do you think the AFL have GWS and not a Tasmanian team.....FFS

 

[Perth Red]

Ideally 20 teams playing a 19 game season but incredibly unlikely in the next 30 plus years. Even more so now club grants have significantly risen to take a large % of the NRL's revenue.

If the TV companies will pay in the future more than the cost of club grants for new teams then its achievable but it seems there is little appetite for that from Ch9 or Fox.

 

[Perth Red]

It's the penetration into Sydney that TV companies are after, why do you think the AFL have GWS and not a Tasmanian team.....FFS

You missed the point, viewing audiences in Sydney for games involving non Sydney teams are not massively different than when two sydney teams play. On Fox there is virtually no dofference in overall subscribers watching non Sydney games as Sydney games.
That would suggest the majority of people who watch NRL on TV in Sydney are as interested in watching neutral games as they are watching their own team. The club die hards are at the games, the rest follow the game as much as their own club.

 

[taipan]

Put on a Parra v Souths,Dragons V Sharks,etc and that point about comparisons in Sydney market is hollow.

 

[greenBV4]

Thought I throw in an opinion after just taking an hour to read through most of this thread..

What has always annoyed me with both NRL and AFL teams is having them named as individual suburbs
Correct me if I'm wrong but no other teams in other sports around the world do this for top tier teams?

Sure it strengthens the loyalty of the exact suburb the team is named after, but in most cases this is only a couple thousand people

What Im getting at is what I think is the best solution for if Sydney teams were to be booted/relocated.

Say we were left with 4-5 Sydney teams (regardless of which these are, and not including Woolongong and CC)

If these teams ditched there traditional suburb names and for example picked up "north-" "south-" "east-" west-" Sydney, we would be left with a bunch of pissed off fans at the time, but the generations of kids growing up would not feel like there area is not covered by a team, as every inch of Sydney would technically now be covered.

The re-named teams would still be roughly based in the same area, and still include the traditional suburb and all the history that went with it, but could also fill the gaps left by the booted/relocated teams as well as areas that never had a team

 

[Pommy]

Thought I throw in an opinion after just taking an hour to read through most of this thread..

What has always annoyed me with both NRL and AFL teams is having them named as individual suburbs
Correct me if I'm wrong but no other teams in other sports around the world do this for top tier teams?

You mean like Chelsea, Tottenham, Watford, Everton, West Ham, Crystal Palace? Those kind of top tier teams?