In praise of The Greatest

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[Vertigo]

Warlock: I remember from one of theMuhammad Alidocumentaries I viewed (and taped), it said that Ali now lived on a ranch somewhere in the US on quite a few acres. I don't remember exactly which state it was in, but it may have been one of the Carolina's, if I was to take a guess. Not certain though.
His daughter (the one that boxes I think) was interviewd, and asked how her father was these days, and what he felt about the sport he helped "re-birth" and "dominated for so long" (the interviewers wording). She stated that her father was now a very private person who devoted all his time to his immediate family and his religion. She said he still does many things he's always done, although (obviously)with a few limitations due to his battle withParkinsons. She also stated that he was a very content person with what he has in his life now, and what he has achieved. He holds no ill feelings about what has happened to him and certainly does not feel sorry for himself, or expects any other to feel the same way. He doesn't point the finger at any one thing, or person, for his current disease, and most definitely does not blame the sport.
He believes that those who participate in boxing these days do it for reasons opposite to what fighters in his time did. Fighters in his time boxed because they loved the sport and were given the added benefit of money for doing what they enjoyed. Fighters of today, Ali claims, fight for the money only and are forced to learn the skill of boxing well into their careers, where for some it ends before it begins. Ali claims boxing is now for the purposes of television entertainment and pay-per-view contracts and endorsements, rather than for the hard core boxing fans, as it use to be he believes when he was fighting.
Ali elects not to do public appearences and engagements any longer, not so much because he has trouble speaking (you'd be surprised how much he still speaks with family and close friends,she says), but more so because those that are not around him most of the time, have trouble understanding him because his speach is now somewhat blurred. Although he'll never admit it, she said, he's too proud a person to let people see him as he is now. He wants people to remember him the "way he was." He gets around un-assisted the majority of the times, apparently, but does need help with a few things. The Ali's have apparently hired a helping hand from a privatenursing company for a few years now, who spends many hours of the day at their ranch, assisting in bathing and the like.
You'll view the documentary for yourself in a few months, Warlock. I hope this helped with your questions.
Vertigo

 

[Vertigo]

I was way off about Ali's current residence. Here' an extract I found:
Ali presently lives with his fourth wife, Yolanda (also his manager), in Berrien Springs, Michigan. The father of 9 children, Ali will go down in history as a legend, for his achievements as a humanitarian, political activist, witty humorist, and lest we forget -- an incredible boxer.
Vetigo

 

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[imported_Ian__________________]

Joe Louis's tax problem came about because he donated 2 match purses during the Second World War to Charities....War Charities.......he handed both full amounts straight over to the Charities.....but the IRS chased him....and hounded him for the tax.........and destroyed the quality of his life....So much for being a Patriotic American.
http://discuss.5er.com

 

[Atilla]

Raging Bulldog: Although it doesn't answer all your questions about Joe Louis, I have found some information about most of your questions you asked earlier, which may be of interest to you and others. I'll only paste the parts of the article that may be of interest to you. Javaman can fill you in on the rest when he returns:

Louis himself was so generous and often naive in his generosity, that he never saved his money and spent the last half of his life trying to pay back money he owed from the first half. He gave away money to poor kids and friends from his youth and hangers on. He started a Detroit softball team, the Brown Bombers, and bought them uniforms and a team travel bus. He even repaid the city of Detroit the $250 his family received in welfare checks after his stepfather was injured in an auto accident. He bought uniforms for an entire graduating class of army officers from Jackie Robinson's officer training class. He bought businesses for friends, and invested in friends' schemes. The more he earned the more he gave away. In 1940, the Detroit News reported that Louis was riding on his newly purchased farm near Utica. An elderly Indian lived in a shack on the property and was worried that Louis would evict him. Louis rode his horse over and told him not to worry, but to move over to the other side of the hill where there was a frame house that would be more comfortable for winter. Louis bought the farm in Utica for his horses. He had started riding at Washington Park in Chicago and rode every day there. He collected show horses and competed in riding shows .
He started an insurance company in Chicago, the Joe Louis Insurance company, in which he lost interest, and similar business ventures fell by the wayside. His wife Marva, who had divorced Joe in 1945 and remarried him in 1946, then divorced him for good in 1949. Joe had huge financial problems. He had given so much money away, he owed the IRS hundreds of thousands of dollars, his divorce settlement was large, and since his retirement, he had no way of earning the money. He decided on a comeback, but it was not a success. He lost to Ezzard Charles in 15 rounds of a championship bout. He retired for good in December of 1951 after Rocky Marciano knocked him out in the eighth on October 26, 1951. Various businesses and financial schemes failed, and Louis gave up hope of ever paying the IRS the more than $1 million he owed. He went on quiz shows, even tried professional wrestling, but when he did win money, he just gave it away to various charities and the likes.
He also worked with Sonny Liston and as an advisor to Muhammed Ali. Eventually Louis' health deteriorated to the point where he was confined to a wheelchair. His heart was bad: he had two operations, which long time friend Frank Sinatra paid for. Sinatra flew Louis to Houston to have Michael DeBakey perform surgery. Louis suffered a stroke exactly one year before his death, and eventually his heart gave out. Joe Louis died on April 12, 1981. He was 66 years of age. Ronald Reagan waived the eligibility rules for burial at Arlington National Cemetery, and Louis was buried there with full military honors on April 21, 1981. The whole country mourned his passing. President Reagan praised his instinctive patriotism and extraordinary accomplishments.
Good night all - Atilla

 

[Atilla]

Thanks for a great post Vertigo. I enjoyed it very much.
Ali still has a very intact mind and still speaks very truthfully. These comments are proof of the pudding:
Fighters of today, Ali claims, fight for the money only and are forced to learn the skill of boxing well into their careers, where for some it ends before it begins. Ali claims boxing is now for the purposes of television entertainment and pay-per-view contracts and endorsements, rather than for the hard core boxing fans, as it use to be he believes when he was fighting.

It's great to hear that he has no ill feelings about the sport which gave him as much as what he put into it.I'm happy to hear that he is doing as well as can be expected,and seems to be much better than what many in the public may presume upon seeing him at times, these days, in the public eye.
Thanks again Vertigo
Cheers - Atilla

 

[imported_Raging Bulldog]

Hey thanks for that peice Atilla. That was very gentlemanly of you to provide that article. Much appreciated pal.
Raging Bulldog

 

[Vertigo]

He also worked with Sonny Liston and as an advisor to Muhammed Ali.
That surprises me somewhat. I'd never heard of it or watched it on any doc's. What is the web page you got that article from Atilla? Or did you type it from a text?
Vertigo

 

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[imported_Outlaw]

I never knew Ali and Louis were linked inside the ring
Me 2 mate. I guess though one Joe Louis fan here will tell us that was the period of Ali's success...LOL

 

[Vertigo]

(I'm sorry for dragging out old boxing threads of late)
I have a comments or two on Rocky Marciano. Please note that my comments and personal opinions below, are based on only the two mentioned bouts I have seen in full. I have never seen Marciano fight apart from these two bouts.
I, just last night, watched (and recorded Warlock) two Rocky Marciano fights on ESPN Classic. The first was the 1952 heavyweight title fight against Jersey Joe Walcott. Walcott was the reigning champion and Marciano was claiming to win the heavyweight belt for the first time. Marciano won by a KO in the 13th round. The fight callers were saying, towards the end, that Jersey Joe was clearly well ahead on cards, and that Marciano needed to rely heavily on nothing short of a knockout to claim victory. It was his only choice. It was a brutal fight from the first round onwards when a knockdown that Jersey Joe inflicted upon Marciano. Both fighters were cut badly and didn't give or take an inch. Personally, I think Walcott inflicted far more damage to Marciano, but to the Italian's credit, he hung in their and did claim victory in the end.
The next was Marciano's very last ever fight against Archie Moore in 1955. Marciano won by another knockout in the 9th. Although to me, it looked more like Moore was exhausted from the beating he copped through the whole fight from Marciano, and it was only a matter of time before Moore dropped to the floor once again in this fight. This time however the bell did not save him. I know people have stated before that Archie Moore was old in this fight, but, whilst he did appear to have aged somewhat since the last fight I saw him in (I watched the Moore V Ezzard Charles in 1949 I think the year was), he was still a worthy opponent who appeared to still be able to box very well. Marciano was no teenager in this fight also. His hairline had all but receded, and a bald spot was well apparent on the top of his head in comparison to the fight against Walcott. He also looked much slower and appeared to tire out far more easily. Age seemed to catch up with Marcaino at a very rapid pace in the space of three short years. He was in excellent physical shape though.
The purpose of this post is to let those who have not seen Marciano fight know, that he was far from a great boxer. He showed very little boxing skills in the ring (mind you, that’s coming from a non-boxing expert), in comparison to both Jersey Joe and in particular Archie Moore. Both fighters looked to have far better boxing skills and abilities than Marciano. He had practically no defense or a solid stance, and to me (mind you), looked like he was easy to hit. Where Marciano was very dominant however, was his punch power in both hands, and his ability to hit hard in close. He seemed to me like the kind of fighter who frustrated his opponents by electing to fight in real close. Many have mentioned the word “swarmer” and it’s very fitting, as he liked to get in close and land head and in particular body shots. He seemed to me to wear his opponents out. His punches seemed to genuinely hurt (both Walcott and Moore said so after the bouts), and you could almost hear them contacting through the television set.
I have seen Ali and Louis a number of times now on television. After seeing Marcaiano in these two fights, and judging him solely on these two bouts (along with the fact that I’m far from a boxing expert), I’ve come to the conclusion that Both Ali and Louis would have defeated Marciano convincingly. Ali would have tired Rocky out with his moves, and Louis would have knocked Marcaino out with his punch power. Please note it’s just my opinion and I show no disrespect towards his fans here. I did have him ranked number two on my all time greatest heavyweight list based primarilyon what’s been written about him in this boxingsection over time, but if I was to do the list again, I’d find it difficult to have him anywhere near my top five at absolute best...at least based on those two fights I saw.
Vertigo

 

[Vertigo]

BTW. Just on a different note. Mike Tyson seems to be in hot water once again. I'm not sure if the Aus' media is reporting it:
http://www.sportserver.com/boxing/story/349070p-2863680c.html
Although, this time, many here are claiming that those accusing him are doing so for the finacial incentives rather than anything based on fact.
Vertigo

 

[imported_Outlaw]

You write well Vertigo. You should contribute to the boxing section (and other sections of course) far more often. Thanks for a good peice mate

I think I can say without very little objection nowthat you are now our official US correspondance

 

[Atilla]

Sorry guys. I should have provided the link to the article I placed earlier but forgot to do so:
http://detnews.com/history/louis/louis.htm

Good post their Vertigo. Your post, or the reasons you outlined in it,is part of the reason why Rocky Marciano only just scrapped into my top 5 greatest Heavyweights of all time. I had him at number 5.He had very little boxing skills, but achieved alot with what he did have. Plus with a record like his (49-0), he rightfully should always be mentioned amongst the best heavies ever. I don't believe he was alone in his time or eraof boxers who possesed little to know boxing skills or style. I don't believe fighters like Jack Johnson and Ezzard Charles had the best boxing techniques, but their achievements speak for themselves in the ring. Mike Tyson of current is another very good example. I wish they could have all been like Robinson or Louis, but each fighter should be judged according to his achievements and accomplishments inside the ring, rather than how 'pretty' they looked or boxed. It's just another case of varying opinion on a topic.
I enjoyed your account of the two fights.
I have never seen Marciano fight apart from these two bouts.
Didn't you state you also saw the Marciano versus Charles fight. What did you think of Charles?
Cheers and thanks - Atilla.

 

[Vertigo]

Atilla:
The Ezzard Charles v Rocky Marciano fight I have yet to view in its entirety. I set up the timer on the VCR and recorded it whilstI was out at the time it was first shown. ESPN Classic replays the same programs here about three or four times over the course of a week, once the original is shown. They do so at all hours of the day-night, so it's fitting for those on different times schedules to be able to still view it. I viewed the fight, partially on an ocassion after I had recorded it, and did so whilstI was in the mist of another project. I wasn't really paying all that much attention to the fight.
Therefore, I can't give an opinion on Ezzard Charles as a fighter. I'll more than likely view the recorded fight this weekend. I know that you are interested in Ezzard Charles from past postings I've read of yours, so therebyif you like, forward me an email, and I'll send you my(non-expert boxing) opinion on Charles and the fight,rather than clogging up this thread. I did have your email under my address book, but it seems to have dissapeared for some strange reason. Please note though that this is not my primary email account, andI view it only a couple of times a week...at best.
www.aus_vertigo@hotmail.com
Vertigo.

 

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[Ryback]

Some very good posts here in this discussion.
What's with all the deletions though? Soory about mine just then..,..
Here's an interview Rocky Marciano did in 1962that some who participated here may enjoy reading:
Reminiscing with “The Rock”
Back in 1962 in Timmins, Ontario, Canada, the Moneta Recreation Club held a “Night of Champions” with three all-time boxing greats; Rocky Marciano, Willie pep and Barney Ross, as guests of honor.
During the course of the evening, Marciano graciously took time out from the activities to talk boxing with a young reporter from the Daily Press.
Here are some of Rocky’s reminisces from this interview:

Q - Although you retired undefeated, you had you shares of tough fights, like the first ones with Roland LaStarza, Jersey Joe Wolcott and Ezzard Charles. Which was your toughest fight?
A - All my fights were tough, but if I had to pick out just one as my toughest, I’d have to say Carmine Vingo (Dec. 30, 1949 at New York’s Madison Square Garden). “It was a Pier 6 brawl, he hurt me a couple of times, like in the fourth round when he caught me on the jaw with a left hook and stayed with me for the rest of the round. I had him down in the first and second rounds but Carmine was a rugged boy and came back to stagger me in the fourth before I finally kayoed him in the sixth. It was a tough fight in the ring but even tougher after the fight. If Carmine had died I would have retired from boxing.
Q - There was and always will be only one Rocky Marciano, but when you started fighting did you pattern yourself after any particular fighter?
A - I always wanted to emulate Jack Dempsey and Joe Louis. My fighting style resembled Jack Dempsey’s, but I wanted to be like Louis, he was my idol, and be as fine a champion as he was.
Q - If Louis was your idol, did you have any misgivings about fighting him back in 1951?
A - Unfortunately, fighting is a tough business. I always looked up to Joe but he stood in the way of my dream to become heavyweight champion. Charley Goldman told me, “Keep pressing him, don’t give him a breather.
Q - Naturally, your championship bouts were all memorable, but were there any bouts on your climb to the championship that stand out in your memory?
A - I would have to say my fight with Rex Layne. In fact, Charley Goldman called it my perfect fight. Layne has never been knocked off his feet going into that bout, he was at his peak and so was I. After I knocked him out in sixth round, I really felt like a champion and I was sure I would win the title when I got a chance at it.
Q - Jack Dempsey’s former manager Jack (Doc) Kearns once said to you, “When it comes to one-punch hitting power, Rocky Marciano is better than Dempsey and Louis”. Did you always have confidence in your ability to knock out your opponents?
A - Ever since I started boxing, I realized I was blessed with punching power, and, in most cases, one solid punch accounted for the knockout. When I first began boxing, I just reared back and threw punches as hard as I could, but when I came under the influence of Charley Goldman, my sense of direction improved. I knew better what to do and I developed better coordination.
Q - You were undefeated as a professional, but did you ever think you might be beaten?
A - I don’t want to sound like a braggart, but I never thought anybody in the world could lick me. Once in a while when I was training for a fight, the thought occurred to me, “What if this guy does beat me?” but that’s as far as it went. It was a passing though and passed quickly. Even during the progress of some of my toughest fights when I had to come from behind I never did think I might lose. I never felt my strength was gone nor was I ever gasping for breath and I was never stunned enough that my brain wasn’t clear.
Q - You had a reputation as a bleeder throughout your ring career. What is the most serious injury you ever suffered?
A - My most serious injury as a pro was the split nose I suffered in my second fight with Ezzard Charles. I required 46 stitches and plastic surgery after that fight and seriously considered retiring then and there. As an amateur, I had trouble with my knuckles. I had surgery while in the Army and they were never a serious problem as a pro.
Q - How about some opinions of today’s top heavyweights? Sonny Liston?
A - Sonny Liston has a killer instinct second to none and the strength to back it up. Liston reminds me of Joe Louis in the ring. He isn’t the classic fighter Louis was but with his strength he doesn’t have to be.
Q - Cassius Clay?
A - Forget about the cockiness and the big mouth, Clay can fight. He’s probably the best boxer-puncher around and reminds me of Ezzard Charles. The one thing I don’t like about Clay is his apparent lack of ruggedness.
Q - Floyd Patterson?
A - At one time, I thought Floyd was going to be a hell of a fighter, but somehow he fell short. I put a lot of the blame of Floyd’s manager Cus D’Amato who guided Patterson through so many easy fights he didn’t have the ruggedness and experience when he needed it. I’ve always liked Patterson, but I can’t rank him among the great champions. Of course, he has to have something as he is the heavyweight champion.
Q - One final question, Rocky, do you have any regrets looking back at your ring career?
A - I may have been born too soon as fighters today are making more that I did, but I have no regrets, I had a profitable and exciting career and knew when to quit.

 

[imported_Reservoir Dog]

Uhhh! Always good to have this great thread back...
Q - There was and always will be only one Rocky Marciano, but when you started fighting did you pattern yourself after any particular fighter?
A - I always wanted to emulate Jack Dempsey and Joe Louis. My fighting style resembled Jack Dempsey’s, but I wanted to be like Louis, he was my idol, and be as fine a champion as he was.
At least that answer will please one poster here

 

[imported_Reservoir Dog]

Ryeback: You asked -
What's with all the deletions though?
They belonged to a former member here named Warlock who left us about a month or two ago now. He deleted all his posts (so I hear) before he left. He had some real good posts here (amongst other threads). It's too bad they are gone now.