Is Cleary a dud?

[Abacus]

Moving an international fullback for a reserve grade fullback is not an upgrade.

Aekins is not close to proven in first grade yet. We have no way of knowing what we will be getting from him. He had a solid debut obviously. But one game doesn't mean much.

I think its our best bet out of the few bad options we have. But i wouldnt be surprised if he sizzled out like Crichton did after a couple of games either. Or he could be the next Tedesco.

But there's no guarantees. It's absurd to think he's an automatic upgrade. Dallin would look like a god in reserve grade.

Ah, no need to be so defensive.

DWZ did well filling in for RTS against a poor England side. The point is opposition teams have figured out DWZ and unfortunately he's a bit of a 1 trick pony.

The team needs someone at FB that can do more than run hard. We also have a centre position that needs filling.

Of Aekins and DWZ, Aekins appears to have a better skill set for FB i.e. better suited so an upgrade. Which would mean DWZ to centre (Mansour & MWZ) on the wings.

 

[mxlegend99]

Ah, no need to be so defensive.

DWZ did well filling in for RTS against a poor England side. The point is opposition teams have figured out DWZ and unfortunately he's a bit of a 1 trick pony.

The team needs someone at FB that can do more than run hard. We also have a centre position that needs filling.

Of Aekins and DWZ, Aekins appears to have a better skill set for FB i.e. better suited so an upgrade. Which would mean DWZ to centre (Mansour & MWZ) on the wings.

He nearly won the golden boot. You know what you're getting from Dallin at fullback. He's an established and proven player at the highest level.

Aekins is an unknown. You literally have no idea how he will cope with the NRL. He is not guaranteed to be an upgrade. Like any rookie there is no guarantee.

He could come in and end up being worse than Edwards. Everyone was certain he was the best fullback at the club a few weeks ago.

 

[Abacus]

He nearly won the golden boot.

Um, no he didn't. He was nominated for the final shortlist - that's not the same as nearly winning it.

He's an established and proven player at the highest level.

Yes, as a winger. He did well filling in at FB for RTS for NZ last year. But, and without wanting to knock DWZ, there aren't that many Kiwi FB options.
I know you're a fan but you are seriously over-rating DWZ. I think if he was at another club you wouldn't look twice at him as a FB.

Aekins is an unknown. You literally have no idea how he will cope with the NRL. He is not guaranteed to be an upgrade. Like any rookie there is no guarantee.

Correct. However we do know what we are going to get with DWZ and unfortunately its not enough to make us competitive with the top teams. He doesn't create any doubt in the minds of the defense - in fact, he creates certainty as they know he's 99% likely to just try to run over the top of someone. While it might be exciting for fans, its an extremely limited playing style.

Also correct that we don't know what we'll get with Aekins. You've established the negative. It's also possible we get the opposite - a player that gives the team options in attack, that complements the rest of our spine and can still make metres on kick returns.

If we want to improve as a team, DWZ is not the long term option as FB. In which case we may as well use Whare's injury to move DWZ to centre and find out what Aekins offers at FB. If you're right and Aekins is a dud then the club may have to go to market.

 

[franklin2323]

Ivan literally cant pick those players unless Gus promotes them. Gus might have other ideas for our remaining top 30 spots.

Either way it's not an option for Ivan right now and blaming him for not picking eligible players is ridiculous.

Its a good thing we havent rushed to replace Phillips. There are a lot of holes in our roster and we cant just waste his spot on someone for the sake of it. That's how a third of our top 30 are in the squad to begin with.

Often guys get named before being cleared. Faimu last year is one example. You can name then get them cleared.

We likely don't get anyone mid season to replace so it will internal til the end of the season

 

[mxlegend99]

Yes, as a winger. He did well filling in at FB for RTS for NZ last year. But, and without wanting to knock DWZ, there aren't that many Kiwi FB options.
I know you're a fan but you are seriously over-rating DWZ. I think if he was at another club you wouldn't look twice at him as a FB.

As a winger he has been average as f**k at rep level. Solid at best. Poor afew times. As a fullback he was by far the Kiwis best player and by far the best International fullback in the 2018 season.

Honestly if you take his fullback games away we would be questioning if he was even rep qualityat all.

Why he got the opportunity is irrelevant. What is relevant is how well he took that opportunity... and he killed it. Last year was by far his best ever season at International level. It was the only time he ever looked like the international superstar we believed he is capable of being.

Aekins could very well end up being better. He could end up being terrible. Hence me saying we are potentially weakening one position to move Dallin out of position. Aekins certainly wouldnt be the first guy hyped to be better who ended up disappointing.

I think it's our best bet to round out our backline with what is eligible. But it's a huge gamble that could fail spectacularly. We need to be honest with ourselves about that... and if Ivan takes that huge gamble and it fails people will be on here throwing shit at him for it.

Considering our depth its basically one of only 2 options he has and both could fail:
1 - Aekins at fb, Dallin at centre. Risking 2 positions
2 - DWZ at fb, Fuimaono at centre. Risking 1 position

There's potentially more upside in option 1. But there's also more to risk.

 

[BxTom]

He nearly won the golden boot. You know what you're getting from Dallin at fullback. He's an established and proven player at the highest level.

That is slow, doesn't ball play and is often caught out of position. He is the best at Penrith whilst Edwards is out of form.

Aekins is an unknown. You literally have no idea how he will cope with the NRL. He is not guaranteed to be an upgrade. Like any rookie there is no guarantee.

He could come in and end up being worse than Edwards. Everyone was certain he was the best fullback at the club a few weeks ago.

 

[Abacus]

As a winger he has been average as f**k at rep level. Solid at best. Poor afew times. As a fullback he was by far the Kiwis best player and by far the best International fullback in the 2018 season.

Honestly if you take his fullback games away we would be questioning if he was even rep qualityat all.

Why he got the opportunity is irrelevant. What is relevant is how well he took that opportunity... and he killed it. Last year was by far his best ever season at International level. It was the only time he ever looked like the international superstar we believed he is capable of being.

Aekins could very well end up being better. He could end up being terrible. Hence me saying we are potentially weakening one position to move Dallin out of position. Aekins certainly wouldnt be the first guy hyped to be better who ended up disappointing.

I think it's our best bet to round out our backline with what is eligible. But it's a huge gamble that could fail spectacularly. We need to be honest with ourselves about that... and if Ivan takes that huge gamble and it fails people will be on here throwing shit at him for it.

Considering our depth its basically one of only 2 options he has and both could fail:
1 - Aekins at fb, Dallin at centre. Risking 2 positions
2 - DWZ at fb, Fuimaono at centre. Risking 1 position

There's potentially more upside in option 1. But there's also more to risk.

Hahaha. Anyone arguing for Fui to be in the team at centre has lost all credibility when discussing team selections.

MX, I'm not sure how you're related to DWZ (or maybe you're his manager) but your ability to throw up negatives for alternate FB's while ignoring DWZ's own deficiencies is astounding (in a sad way).

Your willingness to put up with mediocrity for the sole benefit of DWZ probably comes from supporting this club. For too long, the focus of the club has been on getting individuals to NRL rather than continuing to strengthen the collective team. I could see Aekins becoming a Tedesco/Slater/Moylan style FB which we will need to become contenders. Unfortunately I don't see that potential in DWZ.

 

[mxlegend99]

Hahaha. Anyone arguing for Fui to be in the team at centre has lost all credibility when discussing team selections.

MX, I'm not sure how you're related to DWZ (or maybe you're his manager) but your ability to throw up negatives for alternate FB's while ignoring DWZ's own deficiencies is astounding (in a sad way).

Your willingness to put up with mediocrity for the sole benefit of DWZ probably comes from supporting this club. For too long, the focus of the club has been on getting individuals to NRL rather than continuing to strengthen the collective team. I could see Aekins becoming a Tedesco/Slater/Moylan style FB which we will need to become contenders. Unfortunately I don't see that potential in DWZ.

Right... im backing the guy who just killed it for New Zealand a few months back. You're talking up Aekins as the next Slater/Tedesco style fullback and im the one who must be related to him because I dont automatically think Aekins is the next immortal.

I point out that its a risk and potentially weakening 2 positions and I am the unreasonable one. Everyone was so certain Edwards would return better than DWZ and look how that turned out. Its a risk. I said its a risk. Everyone else has it pencilled in as guaranteed success ffs. When its not. But god forbid anyone point that out.

 

[herbert henry1908]

We always overrate our junior talent, I see nothing different in demanding Aekins takeover from DWZ off the back of a few scratchy performances.

Aekins should come into the side as a centre in place of Whare, lets stick with DWZ at fullback for now. He was one of our best last year.

 

[franklin2323]

We always overrate our junior talent, I see nothing different in demanding Aekins takeover from DWZ off the back of a few scratchy performances.

Aekins should come into the side as a centre in place of Whare, lets stick with DWZ at fullback for now. He was one of our best last year.

No one is saying Aekins is going to certainly be any good. Just that something needs to change maybe a ball playing fullback is that. Can always go and recruit for next season and beyond if he doesn't work out

 

[franklin2323]

Right... im backing the guy who just killed it for New Zealand a few months back. You're talking up Aekins as the next Slater/Tedesco style fullback and im the one who must be related to him because I dont automatically think Aekins is the next immortal.

I point out that its a risk and potentially weakening 2 positions and I am the unreasonable one. Everyone was so certain Edwards would return better than DWZ and look how that turned out. Its a risk. I said its a risk. Everyone else has it pencilled in as guaranteed success ffs. When its not. But god forbid anyone point that out.

There is a reason teams have ballplaying fullbacks now. I don't see how you can be a success without one. Souths and Warriors don't but they have great hookers to cover

 

[Flashstep]

There is one thing people need to remember when it comes to DWZ, he is able to get to a higher level as a fullback with a run of games in the position, honestly we wasted an entire pre-season yet again with DWZ, after seeing what he could do filling in for RTS for NZ the club really should have decided that DWZ has more upside than Edwards and used the pre-season to train DWZ as a fullback, the fact of the matter is he’s proven numerous times that he can play fullback at a high level without any training there as he has only been played at fullback in times of injuries.

His best games for the club have been as a stand-in fullback, imagine what he could do when he’s actually practiced playing as a fullback in pre-season, he could have easily developed strong connections with both Maloney and Cleary and worked on his weaknesses, but now once again he has to do it on the run and whilst the team are under immense pressure.

It may take some time but I think DWZ has at least a shot at becoming an elite fullback and I think it’s worth at least one or two seasons trying to get him there.

 

[herbert henry1908]

No one is saying Aekins is going to certainly be any good. Just that something needs to change maybe a ball playing fullback is that. Can always go and recruit for next season and beyond if he doesn't work out

If you want a ball playing fullback I’d be going with Luai.

But we do absolutely give up on guys too quickly, I’ve even seen some people say DWZ should be moved on. Madness. We’re never going to build a winning roster with so many changes.

 

[Abacus]

We always overrate our junior talent, I see nothing different in demanding Aekins takeover from DWZ off the back of a few scratchy performances.

Aekins should come into the side as a centre in place of Whare, lets stick with DWZ at fullback for now. He was one of our best last year.

And we're doing that with DWZ. I'm amazed (I probably shouldn't be) at the number of people here that think DWZ at FB is good for the team. Referencing last year's performances is laughable - we could do the same for Edwards, Mansour, Maloney and others to justify not changing the team.

For clarity, it's DWZ's lack of a FB skillset, not "scratchy performances", and his greater suitability for a centre position (and the ability to make it his own) that has me wanting to see other options. I don't think we want to be still trying to figure out our FB during Origin period.

Having said that, if Aekins comes in at centre it allows him to find the pace of NRL. Might be better for his longer term development.

 

[franklin2323]

If you want a ball playing fullback I’d be going with Luai.

But we do absolutely give up on guys too quickly, I’ve even seen some people say DWZ should be moved on. Madness. We’re never going to build a winning roster with so many changes.

That works too just another point of attack. DWZ is still a quality player we just haven't found best way to use him yet. Personally I see him as a centre

 

[franklin2323]

And we're doing that with DWZ. I'm amazed (I probably shouldn't be) at the number of people here that think DWZ at FB is good for the team. Referencing last year's performances is laughable - we could do the same for Edwards, Mansour, Maloney and others to justify not changing the team.

For clarity, it's DWZ's lack of a FB skillset, not "scratchy performances", and his greater suitability for a centre position (and the ability to make it his own) that has me wanting to see other options. I don't think we want to be still trying to figure out our FB during Origin period.

Having said that, if Aekins comes in at centre it allows him to find the pace of NRL. Might be better for his longer term development.

Same here. Know DWZ will do a good job but we need to get someone that can join the backline and throw cutouts to wingers. Grubber behind the line etc.

 

[Abacus]

Right... im backing the guy who just killed it for New Zealand a few months back. You're talking up Aekins as the next Slater/Tedesco style fullback and im the one who must be related to him because I dont automatically think Aekins is the next immortal.

I point out that its a risk and potentially weakening 2 positions and I am the unreasonable one. Everyone was so certain Edwards would return better than DWZ and look how that turned out. Its a risk. I said its a risk. Everyone else has it pencilled in as guaranteed success ffs. When its not. But god forbid anyone point that out.

Please post my quote where I mention anything to do with immortal.

I said:

I could see Aekins becoming a Tedesco/Slater/Moylan style FB which we will need to become contenders

This references the type of FB style we need to be looking for, particularly given Cleary is our long term half. As usual, you go for hyperbole rather than assessing the options objectively.

Since you're raising risks, there is also the risk that we're sitting here after the Origin period realising DWZ is not the FB for this team and either the season is over or its too late to do anything about it.

Finally, I don't think I've ever said Aekins is a guaranteed success - again, happy for you to provide the quote to prove me wrong. From memory, I've offered an alternate opinion to yours and you're having a minor meltdown that not everyone agrees that DWZ is a potential superstar FB. I'm hoping you see the irony here.

 

[Abacus]

There is one thing people need to remember when it comes to DWZ, he is able to get to a higher level as a fullback with a run of games in the position, honestly we wasted an entire pre-season yet again with DWZ, after seeing what he could do filling in for RTS for NZ the club really should have decided that DWZ has more upside than Edwards and used the pre-season to train DWZ as a fullback, the fact of the matter is he’s proven numerous times that he can play fullback at a high level without any training there as he has only been played at fullback in times of injuries.

His best games for the club have been as a stand-in fullback, imagine what he could do when he’s actually practiced playing as a fullback in pre-season, he could have easily developed strong connections with both Maloney and Cleary and worked on his weaknesses, but now once again he has to do it on the run and whilst the team are under immense pressure.

It may take some time but I think DWZ has at least a shot at becoming an elite fullback and I think it’s worth at least one or two seasons trying to get him there.

Serious question, who do you liken DWZ to as a FB? I'm thinking Inglis a few years ago, only thing is I don't think DWZ is as big, quick or powerful.

Are there any teams other than Souths that have won a GF in the last decade with this style of FB?

 

[Abacus]

If you want a ball playing fullback I’d be going with Luai.

But we do absolutely give up on guys too quickly, I’ve even seen some people say DWZ should be moved on. Madness. We’re never going to build a winning roster with so many changes.

Have to disagree with Luai - very short term focus. He'll be in the halves from next year - no point putting him to FB (or hooker either) at this point.

 

[billypilgrimnz]

If you want a ball playing fullback I’d be going with Luai.

But we do absolutely give up on guys too quickly, I’ve even seen some people say DWZ should be moved on. Madness. We’re never going to build a winning roster with so many changes.

For me, the funniest thing about this forum is the weird positional changes a lot of people randomly suggest. Maloney to hooker! Cleary to Hooker! DWZ to center. Blake to fullback! etc.