Is Cleary a dud?

[Marky Mark]

The myth created by Gould and promoted by consecutive Chairmen and CEO's is that Panthers was about to fold - the time frame varies from hours to days to weeks - and Gus came along and saved the day.

There was ZERO chance of Panthers folding - the assets held far exceeded the debt. It is true that Panthers was in a tough place but it was well protected due to the business that had been built up over decades but particularly during the 90s and early 2000s.

The rough place that Panthers was in when Gus joined was due to some poor decisions ,starting in 2005.

Now I won't dispute that Gus brought some significant benefits to the club but the story that he saved the club is a myth that should be dispelled.

Wasn't really worried about the grammar - just used to using that reference when a quote contains an error or a typo.

Re: "lynch mob" : what I see is a very emotional response to an unfortunate period in the club. If we were at 5 wins now rather than 2 I doubt whether there would be calls for O'Neill's and Cleary's scalp.

This type of stretch happens to most clubs at some time or other. I agree with the push - more for Oneill than Cleary not on the grounds of how the team is performing but on the grounds that the governance of the club over the last (at least) 7 years has been terrible and caused significant waste of the members'assets and even jeopardise our future.

So, for me the ENTIRE operation extends much further than what you suggest. Extending into things like the Warren Wilson appointment and departure, the sale of Wallacia, the sale of the Mulgoa Rd property, the outsourcing of the gaming operation, the lack of growth in sponsorships, game attendances and game day revenues, the large losses incurred by the football department, etc etc.

Certainly part of that investigation would be about the roles of the the Board, and the senior executives. It confounded me how Gus could have a job that had no real job description - this was admitted on a few occasions by Gus himself and by Fletcher recently when he was commenting on Gus's "redudancy".

On each of the points you make I would say this:

- Ivan and Nathan paid too much; possibly but there are other non-footballing staff that are overpaid by a lot - also the mismanaging means not only overpayments to Ivan but we are still paying oters no longer at the club.
- Dave blew it by employing Ivan - did he blow it because Ivan is no good or because it is just wrong for the Chairman to be employing the coach without consultation. He may have made a mistake by his selection of coach but it showed very poor governance just taking the action.
- Gus got squeezed out after saving the club - I say "saved"is a myth. Gus squeezed himself to to a large extent - he made decisions and took action that were against the Boards wishes (example: extending Hook's contract). The Board had tired of their inability to control Gus and this is why they (or Oneill) took over the recruitment of Cleary behinds Gus's back. They did not want to directly address the problem that Gus had become for them - so they did it very slyly.
- Ivan is not quite an NRL coach - there a few NRL standard coaches, except for the very talented they simply don't last. Personally I think Ivan has the potential to be a good coach - despite the stats so far - but I am just as likely as you are to be wrong in that assessment.

OMG - There's too many words there, sorry.

Oh - one more thing - I do understand and have both empathy and sympathy for your upset and your remedy - I'm there with ya!!

Some good points, can’t fault your dedication.

I still think Ivan is a DUD! He’s more Dud than Dudley Moore.

 

[Westernised Panther]

Some good points, can’t fault your dedication.

I still think Ivan is a DUD! He’s more Dud than Dudley Moore.

Maybe even more that Joe Root’s brother Dudley...........

 

[darkbloom]

Some good points, can’t fault your dedication.

I still think Ivan is a DUD! He’s more Dud than Dudley Moore.

LOL And his son has the chin of Dudley Doright.

 

[Kilkenny]

Certainly part of that investigation would be about the roles of the the Board, and the senior executives. It confounded me how Gus could have a job that had no real job description - this was admitted on a few occasions by Gus himself and by Fletcher recently when he was commenting on Gus's "redudancy".

The whole job description thing is a throwaway line in many respects. We all know what Gus did in his role as General Manager of Football Operations or whatever else you want to call it. You can argue long and hard about the merits of his tenure here at this club but the amount of work he put into the club, in which management of our roster was but a small percentage in real terms, will never fully be understood, recognised and sadly not appreciated. He didn’t need a job description he just got the job done the best way he knew how and did what he thought was best.

 

[murraymob]

well I have been one of his biggest critics .But he has the squad he has and at least is making them accountable. We all said Mansour RCG where well down on form and he has droped them. The reserves cupboard is not high on talent ready for first grade .But he has given a few a shot. The ball is in there court

 

[darkbloom]

The whole job description thing is a throwaway line in many respects. We all know what Gus did in his role as General Manager of Football Operations or whatever else you want to call it. You can argue long and hard about the merits of his tenure here at this club but the amount of work he put into the club, in which management of our roster was but a small percentage in real terms, will never fully be understood, recognised and sadly not appreciated. He didn’t need a job description he just got the job done the best way he knew how and did what he thought was best.

Yes job description was a throw away line - in my case, done in the interests of brevity. But surely the Board (and the Members the Board represents) should have some idea as to what would indicate how the Executive GM was performing. If they did have this then it is another shameful indictment of our Board.

Sadly, I suspect they had nothing like that.

BTW, I don;t believe he worked quite as hard for Panthers as many believe or as he would like us to believe - but that is just an opinion about as valid as your, I suppose.

 

[Kilkenny]

BTW, I don;t believe he worked quite as hard for Panthers as many believe or as he would like us to believe - but that is just an opinion about as valid as your, I suppose.

Sad you feel that way but I guess we all work 12-18 hours a day seven days a week even if all weren’t just for us.

 

[darkbloom]

Sad you feel that way but I guess we all work 12-18 hours a day seven days a week even if all weren’t just for us.

You believe he worked 84-126 hours per week for Panthers? No worries - that's an opinion well worth holding.

Mind you I do believe Gus worked hard for Panthers, just not as hard as popular opinion says. Those hours you quote are the popular opinion - and I believe that level of commitment is just another part of the Gus mythology.

I do know how it is to put in that many hours over an extended period.

My opinion may not be a positive opinion. Don't feel sad, I'm quite comfortable with and will remain so until I see evidence that the mythology is in fact reality.

 

[Kilkenny]

You believe he worked 84-126 hours per week for Panthers? No worries - that's an opinion well worth holding.

Mind you I do believe Gus worked hard for Panthers, just not as hard as popular opinion says. Those hours you quote are the popular opinion - and I believe that level of commitment is just another part of the Gus mythology.

I do know how it is to put in that many hours over an extended period.

My opinion may not be a positive opinion. Don't feel sad, I'm quite comfortable with and will remain so until I see evidence that the mythology is in fact reality.[/QUOTE

Most of us have a vested interest in the fortunes of our NRL side.

You on the other hand seem to have a perverse vested interest in things other than just the fortunes of our NRL side.

 

[darkbloom]

Most of us have a vested interest in the fortunes of our NRL side.

You on the other hand seem to have a perverse vested interest in things other than just the fortunes of our NRL side.

LOL. Having an alternative view in my world does not make that person or their interests perverse. It in fact makes the world more interesting. On that level our worlds are very different.

But you are right. My interest reaches much further than the NRL side.

My interest is in the welfare of the club I have supported for a very long time. I don't really have to justify the validity of that support nor would I expect you to have to. I have an opinion, you do too. They differ. Not sure why that would cause you to label my interest as perverse..

I must admit I do have an interest in diluting the Gould mythology - because there is a lot of mythology surrounding Gould (in my opinion). But this is interest is relatively minor.

My greatest interest is in the future of the club and how the Board is shaping that future. They, along with senior executives (like Gould & Fletcher) are the stewards of our club's future. They have much greater impact on our club than any coach or any player - though the coach's impact can be significant,

So while your interest might be on who played poorly, who was a poor selection, what the coach is doing wrong etc etc, who's out with injury, the bias of the referee etc etc, I am not. The only time and and energy I want to spend discussing those things is immediately after the game, with a few mates having a beer or two or more. I see it as part of game day - a day I like to get as much enjoyment as possible - and then move one.

But I am very interested in spending time and energy trying to suss out the overall direction of the club. I have been concerned for some time now that the future does not look rosy to me. That is my perversion, Kilkenny. If you determine it is an unworthy pursuit, so be it. My advice would be don't read anything I write because it will rarely contain any stuff that interest you - to put it another way it will always be a perversion.

(And, it seems, always a fking looong perversion.

 

[Kilkenny]

I must admit I do have an interest in diluting the Gould mythology - because there is a lot of mythology surrounding Gould (in my opinion). But this is interest is relatively minor.

My greatest interest is in the future of the club and how the Board is shaping that future. They, along with senior executives (like Gould & Fletcher) are the stewards of our club's future. They have much greater impact on our club than any coach or any player - though the coach's impact can be significant.[/QUOTE]

Given your strong views on the way our club has been run both in recent times and moving forward how do you compare our overall performance given what has occured at others clubs, particularly the Sydney based clubs excluding the Roosters off course. You could argue the Sharks should have been stripped of there premiership, serious mismanagement issues at the Bulldogs, Sea Eagles, West Tigers and the Eels the list is endless. Given what has occurred at various clubs post 2011 do you not think the manner in which Gus Gould ran our football side of things was more professional than some of our Sydney rivals again excluding the Roosters who are cleary the benchmark.

 

[Bodhi]

Maybe we should give the Walkers a start in first grade! Couldn’t do worse judging by how things have panned out so this year.

https://www.nrl.com/news/2018/04/26/the-walker-brothers-explain-their-coaching-methods/

 

[Fangs]

Maybe we should give the Walkers a start in first grade! Couldn’t do worse judging by how things have panned out so this year.

https://www.nrl.com/news/2018/04/26/the-walker-brothers-explain-their-coaching-methods/

Lets make sure we get both of them. One won't be enough. Kinda like the Coen Brothers.

 

[franklin2323]

Sad you feel that way but I guess we all work 12-18 hours a day seven days a week even if all weren’t just for us.

What about the ch9 work?

40 mins podcast
40 mins 100 footy
Thurs or Friday night 3 hours
Sunday 3 hours

Throw in travel that would be around 20 hours alone there

 

[Bob]

Maybe we should give the Walkers a start in first grade! Couldn’t do worse judging by how things have panned out so this year.

https://www.nrl.com/news/2018/04/26/the-walker-brothers-explain-their-coaching-methods/

Maybe not, been found out in the qld cup the last couple of years

 

[Kilkenny]

What about the ch9 work?

40 mins podcast
40 mins 100 footy
Thurs or Friday night 3 hours
Sunday 3 hours

Throw in travel that would be around 20 hours alone there

I haven’t watched as many Ball / Mathews games in recent years but when I did it was not uncommon to see Gus at the games.

He was certainly a regular at the NSW Cup games when we were affiliated with the Windsor Wolves.

I specifically recall one particular occasion at Windsor when Ivan was at the game with David Fairleigh and other members of his then staff and thought how odd it was there was no interaction between them whatsoever. Gus watched from the western side of the ground while Ivan and his cohorts sat on the hill on the club side. Ivan and his entourage left before the end but Gus was in the sheds after the game. Didn’t mean too much at the time I guess but it was curious none the less.

 

[franklin2323]

I haven’t watched as many Ball / Mathews games in recent years but when I did it was not uncommon to see Gus at the games.

He was certainly a regular at the NSW Cup games when we were affiliated with the Windsor Wolves.

I specifically recall one particular occasion at Windsor when Ivan was at the game with David Fairleigh and other members of his then staff and thought how odd it was there was no interaction between them whatsoever. Gus watched from the western side of the ground while Ivan and his cohorts sat on the hill on the club side. Ivan and his entourage left before the end but Gus was in the sheds after the game. Didn’t mean too much at the time I guess but it was curious none the less.

No doubt he had time at lower grades but also had another fulltime job at ch9

 

[darkbloom]

What about the ch9 work?

40 mins podcast
40 mins 100 footy
Thurs or Friday night 3 hours
Sunday 3 hours

Throw in travel that would be around 20 hours alone there

Agreed. But none of that is for Panthers

 

[franklin2323]

Agreed. But none of that is for Panthers

yep. So the 12-18 hours a week doesn't stack up. No doubt he worked hard probably was in early everyday. Kept up to date with all grades but had plenty of time doing his other job too

 

[darkbloom]

[
Given your strong views on the way our club has been run both in recent times and moving forward how do you compare our overall performance given what has occured at others clubs, particularly the Sydney based clubs excluding the Roosters off course. You could argue the Sharks should have been stripped of there premiership, serious mismanagement issues at the Bulldogs, Sea Eagles, West Tigers and the Eels the list is endless. Given what has occurred at various clubs post 2011 do you not think the manner in which Gus Gould ran our football side of things was more professional than some of our Sydney rivals again excluding the Roosters who are cleary the benchmark.

I think that is one of the points - there is a lot of mismanagement in football. Gus's management was about investing, spending to the detriment of the money-earning parts of the group. It's not unusuals but to me the results have not been justified and, frankly, I don't really want our club to turn around and be in the same financial boat as, say, a Cronulla.

I am really only passionately interested in the club I support, Panthers is the only club I look at closely. I don't even look at the annual reports of other clubs - well, not in any detail. Here;s my take on the ones you mention:

Sharks - Firstly I dunno about the stripping of a premiership. But in any case they are not in a good spot due to poor management and overspending in the football club and poor controls by the Leagues Club. The development they did and that was supposed to be their saviour, did not turn out to be that - because the benefits were sucked up by football.. They allowed their leagues club to run down because of the demands of footy - noone acted to preserve the future of that club. I think it is in danger. Panthers is not so different from Sharks except for the sober management of football combined withe strong club trade and the continual acquisition of a pretty big asset base. That sober management of football, the asset base and the strong trade have all diminished by a considerable amount but continuation of recent practices will see us in the a similar boat to those on Captain Cook Drive.

Bulldogs - The management of their football has been poor in recent years (not sure about now). They appeared to allow the coach to have total control (sound familiar). BUT they have a powerful licensed club that trades brilliantly and is very well managed. Recently they lost their GM but their new one is the guy who led the Mounties Group to be in a very powerful position. As an organisation I don't agree they are pooorly managed at all - unless you go back to the McIntyre era. In saying that in recent years their Board was too involved in management issues. Plenty of similarity with Panthers but financially they are now much better than us - a situation that has been reversed over the past 10 years or so..

Sea-Eagles - yep basket case. They are owned privately so their Leagues club does not have to manage how they operate their football department - so their structure is quite different to ours and the others you mention.

Wests Tigers - again there is quite a separation between the Football club and the licensed club. In this case the football club gets a fixed amount from the leagues club and they have to manage it. There is no way the manager of Wests Campbelltown or Wests Ashfield place a higher priority on the Wests Tigers than their licensed club operations.

Eels - Structurally quite similar to Panthers and they also have overspent on football in the past few years. Their future is secure because of their history, strong support and location. They have had the governance issues - again similar to ours with the Board wanting to manage. In fact I believe some of Panthers Board sought advice from Roy Spagnolo (look up his affect on Parramatta - disaster) to apply to the Penrith situation. This was before the arrival of Gould. So, yes poor management is a problem there - they have had an adminstrator in for a few years now. While having a strong leagues club - it was not as strong as ours and they did not have the asset base of Panthers

Roosters - pretty simple held together by Nick Politis and some other powerful Board members. Nick is a very very good businessman.

Really each of the clubs has their own unique situation, history and challenges. Ours had a magnificent standing, asset base and the future looked good. Now it doesn't - well, not to me.