Is Cleary a dud?

[Big Mick]

Pomoz, All the more reason to try as many as possible. Waddell was meant to be a star didn't get a game. Sammut lasted 20. Masada was terrible in 1st grade.

Waddell was never fit...when exactly did you want to give him a bloody game when he was made out of glass. He was also only like 16-17 when he signed his deal. You want to throw a 17 year old out there?

You keep saying from Windsor, from Windsor...I am agreeing WITH YOU! We just have two different time frames and perspectives on the issue. You are talking about now...and I'm talking about 2014 and the core of our team.

They will get their chance! It is Round 5 man!

Realistically the only ones left worthy to be promoted are Moylan and Robbo...and Robbo is already 18th man so he is nearly getting a shot again. Moylan constantly trains with First Grade. Apart from that Anderson and maybe Masoe....and VTK later in the year if he proves he is up for it. Hardly "not promoting anyone".

Moylan, Robbo and Anderson will probably play when the test is on. McKendry, Manu and Whare will likely get selected so they need a prop, backrower and a FB....they will get their shot then hopefully. It is up to them to make themselves not expendable

Plenty of season to go. If they aren't promoted by the middle to end of the year...fine do all the bitching and moaning you want...hell man I'll join you! but dude it is way too soon in the year right now

 

[MaxPower]

Yeah because picking the players that train well is working well! Performance on the field counts more then anything.

Do you follow cricket?? How annoying is it hearing (insert name) has great net form when you have better with runs in Sheild? Same applies here.

We have holes in our roster like Fullback (Moylan), Halves (Austin), Backrow (Robinson) small bench (Anderson).

It's not like we replace the whole team or we are benching stars like Slater, Gallen & co. Our weaknesses have replacements waiting and they aren't going to be instantly ready.

Austin is playing, Robinson is very close (being 18th man for a few weeks), and Anderson is 5'11 and 100kgs, so no bigger than anyone else.

 

[Mr Angry]

Clearly critic, but L Walsh decision, impressed. Had to happen.

Btw always rated Humble.

 

[franklin2323]

Waddell was never fit...when exactly did you want to give him a bloody game when he was made out of glass. He was also only like 16-17 when he signed his deal. You want to throw a 17 year old out there?

No but you don't pay a 16yo $200k a season not to play a game. like we are speaking of Cartwright & co now. They were speaking of him. He didn't work out these may not.

Remember Karl Filiga next SBW played 1 game
:lol: so it's why me need as many with NSW cup experience to see who can handle it down the track


I remember this time last year VTK etc were getting games for Windsor only Satini got a game so I don't have faith it will happen.

 

[franklin2323]

Austin is playing, Robinson is very close (being 18th man for a few weeks), and Anderson is 5'11 and 100kgs, so no bigger than anyone else.

Gus' article & Cleary both said Walsh will be back. Robinson was 18th man Smith gets dropped so you think he would come in. No Ciraldo no pre-season 1 Windsor game straight in. Anderson is a natural prop & handled the monster Vulcan's forwards well has a year of doing similar.

 

[Big Mick]

No but you don't pay a 16yo $200k a season not to play a game. like we are speaking of Cartwright & co now. They were speaking of him. He didn't work out these may not.

Remember Karl Filiga next SBW played 1 game
:lol: so it's why me need as many with NSW cup experience to see who can handle it down the track


I remember this time last year VTK etc were getting games for Windsor only Satini got a game so I don't have faith it will happen.

HUH?!?

So because we paid him that much after many clubs were after him...we have to play him too early? I'm sorry I don't get that logic.

As for VTK....from memory he didn't plan to get a game for Windsor until just past midway through the year and that was for the purpose of him trying to get a shot at first grade but then he got hurt. I'm not sure what you mean by this time last year he was getting a run...he was still running around in 20's. Gus even said on Twitter at the time...if he hadn't of gotten derailed he probably would have played 1-2 games at the end of last year.

 

[Big Mick]

Gus' article & Cleary both said Walsh will be back. Robinson was 18th man Smith gets dropped so you think he would come in. No Ciraldo no pre-season 1 Windsor game straight in. Anderson is a natural prop & handled the monster Vulcan's forwards well has a year of doing similar.

Franklin...we got an Anzac test coming up...there may be injuries out of that or something!....if they don't get a run by mid-year...have a whinge, I'll join you!. It's Round 5 mate...

It is a long f**king season and a lot more players than who have currently played will be getting a run. When they get their chance it is up to them to make themselves regulars...

 

[MaxPower]

Gus' article & Cleary both said Walsh will be back. Robinson was 18th man Smith gets dropped so you think he would come in. No Ciraldo no pre-season 1 Windsor game straight in. Anderson is a natural prop & handled the monster Vulcan's forwards well has a year of doing similar.

You can't go around saying we need size on the bench, suggesting Anderson, and then when pointed out he is no bigger saying it doesn't matter.

 

[maple_69]

Certainly does seem odd that Gus would go out and buy all these 16-20 year olds with no plans to use them even if they are beating the door down. They have talked at length about the long term and rebuilding our junior system so there's obviously some tact to the way they are going to go about that most important step of development into NRL.

I'm sure we'd all explode with excitement if next week Cleary named Nabuli, Moylan, VTK, Anderson, Robinson, Jennings etc. but it's not going to happen and it probably shouldn't.

No doubt we'll all be riding Cleary into the ground if we are picking Ciraldo and Naiqama in 3 months, until then let's just enjoy the dropping of a player we've all been calling for over the last 3 years and the promotion of one of our more promising juniors. Small step but it is progress.

 

[franklin2323]

You can't go around saying we need size on the bench, suggesting Anderson, and then when pointed out he is no bigger saying it doesn't matter.

Mate if size is all it takes to be a prop Inglis weighs 105kg why is he not a prop? Or Trex 118kg? He has been prop all his life. He is stocky & strong the main things needed to be a prop.

 

[franklin2323]

HUH?!?

Gus even said on Twitter at the time...if he hadn't of gotten derailed he probably would have played 1-2 games at the end of last year.

Well you just answered the question at the end.

Injuries derailed ANY plan to get Waddell into NSW Cup & on. So why make plans? Someone shows promise & there's a chance to get them up then it should be done even if it's a game or 2 only.

Atleast you have looked at them & the player knows the level they need to be at to take that next step.

Last year Windsor played twice when NYC had byes only once (against Bulldogs) did any get a game up. That was Satini on the wing.

VTK didn't play for Windsor last year which is crazy.

 

[Big Mick]

Injuries derailed ANY plan to get Waddell into NSW Cup & on. So why make plans? Someone shows promise & there's a chance to get them up then it should be done even if it's a game or 2 only.

I wasn't talking about Waddell, that was VTK. Every time they spoke of wanting him to play NSW Cup he had a niggling injury to get over. So they were trying to get him to play.

You know what...lol, this isn't going anywhere. We are simply going around in circles.

Lets put a hypothetical out there.

If by round 10 this is our line up - Moylan, Mansour, Whare, Tighe, Wes, Austin, Humble, McKendry, Kingston, Grant, Manu, Brown, Ciraldo RES Plum, Docker, Masoe, Segeyaro

And then by Round 15 - Moylan, Mansour, Whare, Roberts, Tighe, Humble, Walsh, McKendry, Kingston, Grant, Manu, Brown, Austin RES: Masoe, Latimore, Robinson, Segeyaro

Would you be ok with that or still not doing what you want?

 

[franklin2323]

I wasn't talking about Waddell, that was VTK. Every time they spoke of wanting him to play NSW Cup he had a niggling injury to get over. So they were trying to get him to play.

You know what...lol, this isn't going anywhere. We are simply going around in circles.

Lets put a hypothetical out there.

If by round 10 this is our line up - Moylan, Mansour, Whare, Tighe, Wes, Austin, Humble, McKendry, Kingston, Grant, Manu, Brown, Ciraldo RES Plum, Docker, Masoe, Segeyaro

And then by Round 15 - Moylan, Mansour, Whare, Roberts, Tighe, Humble, Walsh, McKendry, Kingston, Grant, Manu, Brown, Austin RES: Masoe, Latimore, Robinson, Segeyaro

Would you be ok with that or still not doing what you want?

Same happened with Waddell. He was always 2 weeks from Nsw Cup only to get injured.

Yeah both are fine Round 10 has Fullback and Bench fixed. I wouldn't pick Walsh but I can't see him staying in Windsor for long. I just don't want 15 rounds or so of plodders when with changes we can push for 8th

Say we get this early enough it can make the 8:

Moylan
Mansour
Tighe
Whare
Simmons
Austin
Humble
McKendry
Kingston
Plum
Manu
Brown
Docker

Sege
Grant
Anderson
Robinson

Clearly VTK, Masoe, Nabuli etc need more Windsor time but Masoe or Latimore would push Docker and Anderson out when fit. I know that Kingston & co wont be dropped but above suits the style we have and fixes where we fall short.

Though replacing Moylan and co in Windsor should be Foster, Cartwright, Moss, Campbell-Gillard, Jennings. Then they go back to finish the year in NYC.

With an off-season and knowing what's required they start the year in NSW Cup with an aim of a few games end of 2014. Ready to push to be requlars in 2015.

 

[Big Mick]

Finally we find some common ground. Thank God!

I agree with you. I think what's left is timing. I want it to happen sooner rather than later also...but seeing how Cleary works at the Warriors....I don't think he'll put everyone in at once. He'll put one in, let them find there feet, put the next one in etc.

 

[age.s]

As for the Roosters and the centres. Leilua 21 sacked. Moga 19 and long term injury.

I haven't finished reading the thread (and it's been a good read lately, interesting points on both sides), I just wanted to draw a bit of attention to these two players. Leilua and Moga have both suffered major setbacks to their careers and it will take years (if ever) for them to recover. It's obviously impossible to know, but would they have experienced such huge setbacks to their careers if they were given more time outside of the elite competition to grow (Leilua as a person, Moga physically)?

 

[age.s]

there is no doubt the term dud does not apply to cleary in any shape or form.But being a windsor man like franklin.I feel if your playing well at windsor you should get first shot if the first grader is not playing well.Moylan being the prime example
What more does he have to do.Whare is struggling and seem better suited at center.Put him there give moylan a shot

Again not finished with the thread but I reckon Murray is spot on. Kris Keating is a good example of a player being rewarded for lower grade form and performing when the chance came. No one would have picked Keating over Hodkinson last year, but when Hodkinson got injured Keating came in, played well and became the first choice halfback. Bennett is currently doing the same with Roberts.

Not saying Cleary wouldn't do the same with Austin if he performs, but I really think rewarding good performance at all levels keeps players at all levels of the squad competitive and hungry because they can see their path up and down the system.

 

[chrisD]

Chris, Gus has won two Premierships and oversaw the building of a Roosters outfit that went from being a transit club to making 4 grand finals. Ivan has coached the Warriors to a Grand Final and has coached junior grades to Premierships. Do you really think if they thought that the team would be better if they promoted the juniors, that they wouldn't do that? You don't think Gus can spot a good junior player? Ivan promoted a number of juniors at the Warriors and has a track record of doing so. There is a massive scrap heap of players pushed too early who then fade away. Remember, 10% of players play only one first grade game. 73% manage less than 50 games. First Grade chews people up and spits them out. The physical toll it places on the body can wreck young players who are not ready.

If you think Ivan and Gus are idiots, then lets look at Wayne Bennett and Craig Bellamy. They do exactly the same as we are trying to do. They don't throw u20 players in at the deep end. At most, they may let them play one or two games (usually around SOO) and then drop them back into reserve grade. Last year Austin got a bit of a run. He is about to get another one. Bellamy is always adding depth by signing no name players. Why would he not just throw another junior in rather than sign Brian Norrie?

How many players do we see at the lower grades who look like world beaters and then when they step up are very ordinary. Masada Iosefa anyone? Harry Sjeika?

And how many superstars have we seen debut in the top grade young? If Gould and Cleary are intent on holding back players better or better suited than those ahead of them because they're "not ready" when they've been top end performers for 2 or so seasons in their grade then yes I do believe they're idiots.

 

[MaxPower]

Mate if size is all it takes to be a prop Inglis weighs 105kg why is he not a prop? Or Trex 118kg? He has been prop all his life. He is stocky & strong the main things needed to be a prop.

If you want Anderson in the team because you think he is a better player than those currently selected, i won't argue against your opinion. But when you say he will add size to the bench, you are flat out wrong.

 

[Pomoz]

And how many superstars have we seen debut in the top grade young? If Gould and Cleary are intent on holding back players better or better suited than those ahead of them because they're "not ready" when they've been top end performers for 2 or so seasons in their grade then yes I do believe they're idiots.

Chris, I can see you're passionate about letting the youngsters have a go because the team is packed with journeyman. I hear you. I have been a season ticket holder for 23 years, so I put my money where my mouth is and support the team. It has been painful watching our team the last five years. Deadset painful. You and a few others are also right in saying that we have not used the juniors effectively in the past and wasted a talented u20 crop. Again, I can't argue with that. However, that was mainly during the ME era.

Gus and Ivan aren't responsible for what happened in the last 6 or 7 years and they both have proven track records. Gus has had nothing but success as a coach at the highest level including SOO. I just think they deserve our trust and support because they have proven over time they know what they are doing. They will bring in juniors on a gradual basis, just the same way Wayne Bennet, Des Hasler, Craig Bellamy and Tim Sheens have. A bit of patience and I think we might be able to build a team that makes the semis every year, not 1 in 10.

 

[franklin2323]

Finally we find some common ground. Thank God!

I agree with you. I think what's left is timing. I want it to happen sooner rather than later also...but seeing how Cleary works at the Warriors....I don't think he'll put everyone in at once. He'll put one in, let them find there feet, put the next one in etc.

Yeah. I know we wont get a team full of rookies. I also hate when players skip NSW Cup. It might be different with a fit Coote & Roberts but atm there seem to be better players with the runs on the board in NSW Cup

As For Moss, Cartwright and co. No need to put a time limit on them as long as when they struggle in FG they go back. They need a stint Windsor though if they are doing a Windsor what they are now. No point in holding them back to get an extra 10 games or so. Put them up then back again