Is Cleary a dud?

[Pomoz]

Our pack metres though we were behind. We made more metres with Mansour's 211 and Humbles intercept.

We have shown no improvement in the last 12 months. We have 1 local in the 17. We aren't debuting players with a look to the future

Good point, but hit ups were 582m Penrith vs 624 Titans. Hardly a flogging in metres. We had more possession, made fewer tackles and had 10 more fast play the balls (28 vs 18). You can of course say that this paints us as rubbish and worse than last year, but it is subjective.
You state it as though it were fact and I think the stats contradict that view.

 

[franklin2323]

The difference in the run metres is the prop we are short. A simple change Smith for Anderson, Weston or Masoe probably gets the team closer to where it is.

It is all subjective. 1 local in the squad (well 2 with Austin). The age of the squad. The high error rate are all reasons why I can't say we are better off.

 

[MaxPower]

What is the average age of the squad compared to other teams frank?

 

[franklin2323]

A lot depends on actual starting sides but we are a rebuilding side so should compare with others in that boat. We have 6 players with more then 100 fg games yet 10 players over 28. Roosters last year had only Mini over 25. Eels have only 3 over 27. Souths have 5 over 28.

The side on Sunday age wise was:

Whare 23, Mansour 23, Naiqama 31, Tighe 29, Simmons 29, Humble 25, Walsh 26, McKendry 24, Kingston 30, Plum 30, Manu 26, Brown 27, Ciraldo 29: Grant 25, Sege 23, Docker 22, Smith 30.

 

[MaxPower]

Roosters and rabbitohs aren't rebuilding, and comparing us to the eels doesn't help your case.

 

[maple_69]

If we take that side from Sunday and look at the positions likely to change over the next year we get a very different picture. We are a year or so behind the Roosters rebuild, mainly because we didn't have the junior talent and chose to bridge the entry of this batch with some journeyman.

Roberts 20, Mansour 23, Whare 23, Tighe 29, Nabuli/Robinson 23, Humble 25, Austin 22, McKendry 24, Kingston 30, Plum 30, Manu 26, Brown 27, Docker 22: Grant 25, Sege 23, Robinson 23, Latimore 23

That makes an average age of 24 with the the change of Roberts in (sounds like this is a given), a new winger and a slight shuffle around of the depth players. We could easily be close to 23 by next season which probably prepares us for our 2015-2017 (hopefully longer) window.

I think Cleary will introduce players slowly. We've had enough issues with defence with a totally new team let alone throwing inexperienced, unhardened Toyota Cup players in there. Hopefully the Walsh dropping is a sign that he's now happy to start moving the team forward.

 

[franklin2323]

Roosters and rabbitohs aren't rebuilding, and comparing us to the eels doesn't help your case.

Really so the Roosters and Souths have had a few years in the finals over the last 5?

Roosters had a cleanout of Myles etc don't get stop gaps like Newton etc play with kids to get experience get a few decent recruits and should make the 8 now. Players need 50 odd games to be decent 1st graders. Austin has 14. Robinson 12 etc. They need games

Souths let Sandow go to play Reynolds recruit Inglis to give a good spine

As for Parra we are as bad it's just the recruitment of Sege, Manu have helped us. Using Gus' 2015 as a guide. Who will be better then our 29 yo Simmons or their 19yo Toutai? Our 31 yo Naiqama or their 20 yo Loko? They also have 2 21 yo's in Hopoate & Norman coming in.


The base is their they need recruitment they need to improve. Like the Roosters did going into this year.

 

[Big Mick]

Well our young James Roberts will be better than the 4 backs you've mentioned.

Dean Whare is better than the 4 backs you've mentioned

Norman is a nuffy and will be five-eight where we do have a young player.

They have Hopoate who they are paying a stupid amount to coming off two years out of the game...hardly a prudent investment.

Comparing us to the Eels isn't wise imo.

And the situation with Souths and Easts are a bit different to ours. Both teams had big contract guys coming off contract and thus were able to spend money more wisely and weren't hamstrung with awful contracts.

But how haven't Souths recruited stop-gaps to help their team? Matt King? Michael Crocker? King came back from ESL while Crocker has been past it for a while...sure they've produced a lot more than our guys but that is the product of other factors like having Inglis in your team.

With the Roosters, the only brought in RTS at the end of last year as a result of injuries and made it impossible to drop him. How great was their centre situation that they pursued Jennings...Or their young backrowers like Tom Symonds...that they signed SBW. They let go of three junior players in BJ, Cherro and Symonds to get those two imports. They recruited Pearce at a young age and bought Maloney. They may not have gotten stop gaps but their team was shit for a couple of years and were able to buy as a lot of money came off their books...unlike us who were tied to bad contracts. THAT is the big difference between us and the Roosters.

But overall lets think about what the Roosters did and what we are doing - Emphasis on buying juniors from other clubs and developing them - has resulted in buying the likes of JWH, FPN, Mitchell Pearce etc who are now critical members of the team.

We have bolstered our Harold Matthews, SG Ball and Holden Cup teams by complementing our juniors with products from other clubs and the country teams like a Keiran Mosely, Qld 18's hooker...or the Australian Touch Football halfback whose name escapes me right now and I'll kick myself when someone says it.

We are heading down a path of continuous improvement. Where we can essentially be like a Brisbane that when someone is off-contract we don't have to overpay. If someone gets paid....good luck..we'll replace them with someone from our farm system.

I also don't think we are being as brash as the Eels. They have over $1.1m now wrapped up in two mediocre halves in Norman/Sandow with $800k roughly going to Hopoate who'll be a centre and $700k for Hayne at fullback. That's a lot of coin for a lot of suspect players.

I think we are being smarter with our money than the Eels is the biggest factor against comparing us to them.

Also you need to see that side from last Sunday and think where we will be in 2014. In all likelihood Ciraldo, Newton, Simmons, Wes, Smith, Kingston wont be in that team next year and probably even Plum.

We'll be bringing in Taylor who is young, Kite who is an experienced head and gradually introducing younger kids to the backline. So I think we will be doing what you want....In all likelihood and hopefully the only older players near that team next year would Kite and MAYBE Tighe.

1. Moylan - Young
2. Mansour - Young
3. Whare - Young
4. Roberts - Young
5. Nabuli/Tighe/Robinson - Young/Old/Young
6. Coote - Young
7. Humble - Young
8. McKendry - Young
9. Segeyaro - Young
10. Grant - Young
11. Manu - Mid-Career
12. Brown - Mid-Career
13. Taylor - Young

14. Kite - Old
15. Masoe, Docker, Latimore, O'Donnell, Anderson - Young, Young, Mid-Career, Young, Young
16. Tia-Kilifi, Robinson, Pangai - Young, Young, Young
17. Austin - Young

See what I mean? Like I get what you are saying but for some reason or another Clearly doesn't perceive them as ready RIGHT NOW. I don't think that means he'll never perceive them as ready. I think he'll just gradually filter them into First Grade.

And then behind these guys we are developing the likes of Scarlett, Cartwright, Jennings brothers, Satini, Moss, DWZ etc who will take the place of these young guys when they come off contract and get more money to go elsewhere...and behind them we'll be developing more to take their spots if we have to overpay.

It isn't just producing talent it is also managing the salary cap and maintaining a pipeline so the drop off isn't as dramatic as we've experienced in the past and having to buy stop-gaps because we can't afford anyone else.

 

[chrisD]

I remember a time when good enough was old enough.

 

[Pomoz]

It isn't just producing talent it is also managing the salary cap and maintaining a pipeline so the drop off isn't as dramatic as we've experienced in the past and having to buy stop-gaps because we can't afford anyone else.

Great post Mick. There is no thank you button otherwise you would have got one.

Further to what you have said, it is interesting to note that the clever management of the roster by the Roosters was set up by Gus in the first place. When ever he talks about junior development he always talks about the long term and the need to develop players slowly so they can handle the physical nature of first grade. He often quotes the fact that 11% of players only play one game of first grade and 73% of players play less than 50 games.

He has an answer for those who say if you are "old enough you are good enough". It is simply that the u20's is not an adequate preparation for first grade. Most players must spend time in reserve grade to toughen up and learn their trade. He quotes at least 15 games as the minimum standard and feels so strongly about it he says it should be an NRL law. A few players have not needed this, Brad Fittler springs to mind. He was built like a block of flats when he was 17 and was made for football, but Gus points out this is the exception, not the rule.

I must admit, I think he makes a lot of sense and you can see what he is trying to do (great explanation Mick). Why can't we give him a chance to complete it?

 

[chrisD]

Because persevering with players who are not the answer while better players carve up the opposition in weaker grades is nonsensical.

 

[franklin2323]

Well our young James Roberts will be better than the 4 backs you've mentioned.

Dean Whare is better than the 4 backs you've mentioned

Norman is a nuffy and will be five-eight where we do have a young player.

They have Hopoate who they are paying a stupid amount to coming off two years out of the game...hardly a prudent investment.

Comparing us to the Eels isn't wise imo.

And the situation with Souths and Easts are a bit different to ours. Both teams had big contract guys coming off contract and thus were able to spend money more wisely and weren't hamstrung with awful contracts.

But how haven't Souths recruited stop-gaps to help their team? Matt King? Michael Crocker? King came back from ESL while Crocker has been past it for a while...sure they've produced a lot more than our guys but that is the product of other factors like having Inglis in your team.

With the Roosters, the only brought in RTS at the end of last year as a result of injuries and made it impossible to drop him. How great was their centre situation that they pursued Jennings...Or their young backrowers like Tom Symonds...that they signed SBW. They let go of three junior players in BJ, Cherro and Symonds to get those two imports. They recruited Pearce at a young age and bought Maloney. They may not have gotten stop gaps but their team was shit for a couple of years and were able to buy as a lot of money came off their books...unlike us who were tied to bad contracts. THAT is the big difference between us and the Roosters.

But overall lets think about what the Roosters did and what we are doing - Emphasis on buying juniors from other clubs and developing them - has resulted in buying the likes of JWH, FPN, Mitchell Pearce etc who are now critical members of the team.

We have bolstered our Harold Matthews, SG Ball and Holden Cup teams by complementing our juniors with products from other clubs and the country teams like a Keiran Mosely, Qld 18's hooker...or the Australian Touch Football halfback whose name escapes me right now and I'll kick myself when someone says it.

We are heading down a path of continuous improvement. Where we can essentially be like a Brisbane that when someone is off-contract we don't have to overpay. If someone gets paid....good luck..we'll replace them with someone from our farm system.

I also don't think we are being as brash as the Eels. They have over $1.1m now wrapped up in two mediocre halves in Norman/Sandow with $800k roughly going to Hopoate who'll be a centre and $700k for Hayne at fullback. That's a lot of coin for a lot of suspect players.

I think we are being smarter with our money than the Eels is the biggest factor against comparing us to them.

Also you need to see that side from last Sunday and think where we will be in 2014. In all likelihood Ciraldo, Newton, Simmons, Wes, Smith, Kingston wont be in that team next year and probably even Plum.

We'll be bringing in Taylor who is young, Kite who is an experienced head and gradually introducing younger kids to the backline. So I think we will be doing what you want....In all likelihood and hopefully the only older players near that team next year would Kite and MAYBE Tighe.

1. Moylan - Young
2. Mansour - Young
3. Whare - Young
4. Roberts - Young
5. Nabuli/Tighe/Robinson - Young/Old/Young
6. Coote - Young
7. Humble - Young
8. McKendry - Young
9. Segeyaro - Young
10. Grant - Young
11. Manu - Mid-Career
12. Brown - Mid-Career
13. Taylor - Young

14. Kite - Old
15. Masoe, Docker, Latimore, O'Donnell, Anderson - Young, Young, Mid-Career, Young, Young
16. Tia-Kilifi, Robinson, Pangai - Young, Young, Young
17. Austin - Young

See what I mean? Like I get what you are saying but for some reason or another Clearly doesn't perceive them as ready RIGHT NOW. I don't think that means he'll never perceive them as ready. I think he'll just gradually filter them into First Grade.

And then behind these guys we are developing the likes of Scarlett, Cartwright, Jennings brothers, Satini, Moss, DWZ etc who will take the place of these young guys when they come off contract and get more money to go elsewhere...and behind them we'll be developing more to take their spots if we have to overpay.

It isn't just producing talent it is also managing the salary cap and maintaining a pipeline so the drop off isn't as dramatic as we've experienced in the past and having to buy stop-gaps because we can't afford anyone else.

Simple question do you expect the young kids to come in and be instant stars?

I expect we will get a good 10 games or so then they will struggle and need more time at Windsor. So the sooner we blood them the sooner they can go back and finish developing.

Really King and Crocker?? Farrell and Champion starting centres. Crocker on the bench.

As for the Roosters and the centres. Leilua 21 sacked. Moga 19 and long term injury. Tupou stated last year also.

Parra are possibly paying overs for Norman but he's 22 so hard to know how good he will be. Some may of though $1.5m for a 31 yo Thurston was overs. Simple rubbish teams need to pay overs.

I have no problem with rebuilding. It's just some should of had a few games by now (Moylan, Anderson both a year in NSW Cup from a few in NYC). Remember the average NRL career is 50 games so 90% of these youngsters will be duds sadly so need to look at as many as possible

 

[franklin2323]

Because persevering with players who are not the answer while better players carve up the opposition in weaker grades is nonsensical.

This.

 

[betcats]

Well our young James Roberts will be better than the 4 backs you've mentioned.

Dean Whare is better than the 4 backs you've mentioned

Norman is a nuffy and will be five-eight where we do have a young player.

They have Hopoate who they are paying a stupid amount to coming off two years out of the game...hardly a prudent investment.

Comparing us to the Eels isn't wise imo.

And the situation with Souths and Easts are a bit different to ours. Both teams had big contract guys coming off contract and thus were able to spend money more wisely and weren't hamstrung with awful contracts.

But how haven't Souths recruited stop-gaps to help their team? Matt King? Michael Crocker? King came back from ESL while Crocker has been past it for a while...sure they've produced a lot more than our guys but that is the product of other factors like having Inglis in your team.

With the Roosters, the only brought in RTS at the end of last year as a result of injuries and made it impossible to drop him. How great was their centre situation that they pursued Jennings...Or their young backrowers like Tom Symonds...that they signed SBW. They let go of three junior players in BJ, Cherro and Symonds to get those two imports. They recruited Pearce at a young age and bought Maloney. They may not have gotten stop gaps but their team was shit for a couple of years and were able to buy as a lot of money came off their books...unlike us who were tied to bad contracts. THAT is the big difference between us and the Roosters.

But overall lets think about what the Roosters did and what we are doing - Emphasis on buying juniors from other clubs and developing them - has resulted in buying the likes of JWH, FPN, Mitchell Pearce etc who are now critical members of the team.

We have bolstered our Harold Matthews, SG Ball and Holden Cup teams by complementing our juniors with products from other clubs and the country teams like a Keiran Mosely, Qld 18's hooker...or the Australian Touch Football halfback whose name escapes me right now and I'll kick myself when someone says it.

We are heading down a path of continuous improvement. Where we can essentially be like a Brisbane that when someone is off-contract we don't have to overpay. If someone gets paid....good luck..we'll replace them with someone from our farm system.

I also don't think we are being as brash as the Eels. They have over $1.1m now wrapped up in two mediocre halves in Norman/Sandow with $800k roughly going to Hopoate who'll be a centre and $700k for Hayne at fullback. That's a lot of coin for a lot of suspect players.

I think we are being smarter with our money than the Eels is the biggest factor against comparing us to them.

Also you need to see that side from last Sunday and think where we will be in 2014. In all likelihood Ciraldo, Newton, Simmons, Wes, Smith, Kingston wont be in that team next year and probably even Plum.

We'll be bringing in Taylor who is young, Kite who is an experienced head and gradually introducing younger kids to the backline. So I think we will be doing what you want....In all likelihood and hopefully the only older players near that team next year would Kite and MAYBE Tighe.

1. Moylan - Young
2. Mansour - Young
3. Whare - Young
4. Roberts - Young
5. Nabuli/Tighe/Robinson - Young/Old/Young
6. Coote - Young
7. Humble - Young
8. McKendry - Young
9. Segeyaro - Young
10. Grant - Young
11. Manu - Mid-Career
12. Brown - Mid-Career
13. Taylor - Young

14. Kite - Old
15. Masoe, Docker, Latimore, O'Donnell, Anderson - Young, Young, Mid-Career, Young, Young
16. Tia-Kilifi, Robinson, Pangai - Young, Young, Young
17. Austin - Young

See what I mean? Like I get what you are saying but for some reason or another Clearly doesn't perceive them as ready RIGHT NOW. I don't think that means he'll never perceive them as ready. I think he'll just gradually filter them into First Grade.

And then behind these guys we are developing the likes of Scarlett, Cartwright, Jennings brothers, Satini, Moss, DWZ etc who will take the place of these young guys when they come off contract and get more money to go elsewhere...and behind them we'll be developing more to take their spots if we have to overpay.

It isn't just producing talent it is also managing the salary cap and maintaining a pipeline so the drop off isn't as dramatic as we've experienced in the past and having to buy stop-gaps because we can't afford anyone else.

Very good post Mick, sums up our situation well. I will have to recall this post next time my frustration gets the better of me.

I still disagree with some team selections(Ciraldo, Wes at centre being the main 2) I can see what they are trying to achieve, I can see it falling into place albeit very slowly.

 

[Big Mick]

I remember a time when good enough was old enough.

And that is a broad statement is it? Applies to everyone?

So lets just throw them in the deep end and cripple their confidence when they aren't up to playing with blokes because they've been playing with boys in NYC?

They will be good enough...when they have had a bit more experience playing against men.

But I'd rather build a team capable of being competitive and then inject the youth so we are not relying on them right away to be stars...That is what I feel we are doing.

 

[betcats]

Things that concern me this season beside the team selections are the missed tackles(We lead the league) and giving up tries late in games the last two weeks really shits me, they are coaching issues to me.

Also Gus saying the team lacks self belief etc I see as another coaching issue, getting the boys mentally ready is as important as having them physically ready.

 

[Big Mick]

Simple question do you expect the young kids to come in and be instant stars?

I expect we will get a good 10 games or so then they will struggle and need more time at Windsor. So the sooner we blood them the sooner they can go back and finish developing.

Really King and Crocker?? Farrell and Champion starting centres. Crocker on the bench.

As for the Roosters and the centres. Leilua 21 sacked. Moga 19 and long term injury. Tupou stated last year also.

Parra are possibly paying overs for Norman but he's 22 so hard to know how good he will be. Some may of though $1.5m for a 31 yo Thurston was overs. Simple rubbish teams need to pay overs.

I have no problem with rebuilding. It's just some should of had a few games by now (Moylan, Anderson both a year in NSW Cup from a few in NYC). Remember the average NRL career is 50 games so 90% of these youngsters will be duds sadly so need to look at as many as possible

I don't expect them to be stars. What I do expect is that they are performing to a first grade level and don't need to be dropped really.

You have mentioned Melbourne in the past. Duffie, Fonua, Harris etc are able to be kept in First Grade because they have a great team around them covering their faults. With us at the moment we have a team around us that would expose those faults. Therein lies the difference.

What we are trying to build is a team where we can inject players and it just keeps moving forward. The start of it happened this year...we'll inject young players like you want...but would you rather we be in a position where they all suck and the pressure of having to rely on them is too much? I wouldn't. I'd like to be like a Melbourne/Brisbane with a plug and play mentality.

Like I said...look at our roster for 2014...that addresses you age concern. It addresses what will likely be the development of the young players. I certainly hope it happens. That is my expectation.

Based on your logic, we know what Norman is going to be. He played all year last year at five-eight and Brisbane opted to bring in the rotting corpse of Scott Prince instead...and parra are going to pay $500k a year for that at five-eight...

Look we are talking in circles. You want it down now. But overall we want the same thing Franklin - God knows I want those guys in now too. But overall we both see the same thing happening. And that is we'll be more youthful and have a more exciting team by the end of this year with good injection of recruits next year as well.

Be patient grasshopper.

 

[Big Mick]

Very good post Mick, sums up our situation well. I will have to recall this post next time my frustration gets the better of me.

I still disagree with some team selections(Ciraldo, Wes at centre being the main 2) I can see what they are trying to achieve, I can see it falling into place albeit very slowly.

Oh mate don't get me wrong. I disagree with selections as well. I'm aligned with you in seeing it falling into place slowly.

I'd love it to be next week also lol.

 

[chrisD]

And that is a broad statement is it? Applies to everyone?

Yes it applies to everyone, as it has it's own qualifier "if they're good enough". Now tell me, were we wrong to debut Fittler? Rooney? Lewis? You're talking production line when all it really means is holding back players regardless of how much better they are than the bloke in front of them, for the purpose of completing some mandatory lower grade service. Cartwright has little to learn in the U20s, he's just too good, no different to Milford. One will debut this season, the other we'll just have to hope doesn't have to do a mandatory season at Windsor after his mandatory U20s service before he's eligible to dislodge players such as Ciraldo.

 

[franklin2323]

I don't expect them to be stars. What I do expect is that they are performing to a first grade level and don't need to be dropped really.

Aside from DCE I can't think of anyone else to not get a drop to Reggies or a change in Position etc. It will happen with 95% of them

Have you watched much 20's this year? Satini is way down on form. This time last year I had him pencilled in as a star now I am not so sure.

These kids may not be the answer but we wont know till they get a start. No harm in giving anyone from 18-21 a few games and go back.

NYC players wont jump straight up last year only Siejka and Satini got games in Windsor. Ideally we want them with 5 or so then go back for the finals