Is Cleary a dud?

[Big Mick]

Chris, If they are so dramatically better of course play them.

But you are talking about playing above the opposition in 20's and NSW Cup is still a massive leap to First Grade.

All the guys you mentioned are the exception not the rule.

As for Cartwright and Milford it is a hell of a lot different when talking about forwards and backs.

Milford wont debut unless there are injuries. Cartwright wont debut because we have depth and he will be able to physically develop in reserve grade. What is the point in rushing him when we don't have to and he isn't better right now than what we have.

Cartwright is more than 6 months away from a debut.

Stop saying he'll have to dislodge Ciraldo....and look at 2014 roster. He'll have to dislodge Sika Manu, Lewis Brown, Elijah Taylor, Matt Robinson, Adam Docker, Anthony Cherrington, Vaipuna Tia-Kilifi at a minimum...so which of those do you drop to put Cartwright in straight away in 2014? I'd have him ranked 6th, borderline 5th of that bunch at the beginning of 2014. At which point he won't be in First Grade....and the experience in Windsor would help him....

 

[Big Mick]

Aside from DCE I can't think of anyone else to not get a drop to Reggies or a change in Position etc. It will happen with 95% of them

Have you watched much 20's this year? Satini is way down on form. This time last year I had him pencilled in as a star now I am not so sure.

These kids may not be the answer but we wont know till they get a start. No harm in giving anyone from 18-21 a few games and go back.

NYC players wont jump straight up last year only Siejka and Satini got games in Windsor. Ideally we want them with 5 or so then go back for the finals

Well what makes you believe they wont do that? They did it last year with Seijka and Austin.

They did it with Achurch and Robinson.

We are in round bloody 4. In Round 5 we have Austin getting his shot. Who knows when the next domino to drop is....

But we do know based on last year that compared to Elliot...Cleary does give young guys a go.

Lets just let it play out a bit.

I've watched the 20's and yeah I agree about Satini. But we saw with Eisenhuth last year when given a shot...many praised him...but he looked WAY out of his depth and made schoolboy errors. That is why they go to Windsor first.

Now...if Cleary takes out Jennings, Cartwright etc and puts them in Windsor from say round 10....I'd be happy with that. But are we forgetting that our 20's team...is actually REALLY young.

There is hardly anyone from 20's from what I've seen that is ready to go straight away without a stint in Windsor first.

 

[Big Mick]

Anyway...Cleary is hardly in a win-win situation here.

He doesn't promote the guy...he is a shit coach because he isn't putting young guys up.

He does promote the guy and he suffers and never recovers his form and is out of the league...he is a shit coach because he put him up too early and Gus is shit because he didn't recruit anyone else.

The only win he gets is if puts the young guys up and they all go well.

I wouldn't want to be in his position to be honest. I'd pull my bloody hair out.

If I had my way...you'd know the team I'd pick lol. But I know I'd probably get it terribly wrong too.

 

[chrisD]

Yes they're the exception to the rule but which non exceptional players are we talking about? It's only the exceptional that anyone is discussing. I completely disagree with this idea that players like Austin and Moylan are not ready or that there is some mandatory amount of time a player should serve in the lower grades when they're almost certainly better than what we're throwing in front of them into first grade.

Ciraldo was keeping Austin out of the team, what is to say the same thing won't occur with a seriously weaker player getting the start while Cartwright is serving it out in the lower grades until they deem him ready in 2016?

That to me is the attitude they are taking and a very realistic scenario.

 

[Big Mick]

I think Cartwright is more a 2015 player tbh. I think that's when we'll see him in FG. Maybe back end of 2014.

But what I'm saying is from 2014...what "seriously weaker player" will get the start in front of Cartwright. Who do you drop for 2014 that Cartwright is so much better than. You keep talking about Ciraldo who wont be here. Only reason he was "keeping Austin out of the team" was because Austin was moving around so much because he is a victim of his own versatility and our lack of depth in the halves has forced him to move to five-eight. Apart from that he was playing centre to probably take over from Wes or Tighe...

Again...tell me the weaker player that I've put forward that would keep Cartwright out. Rank them mate. I had him 6th, borderline 5th which in that case has him on the fringe of FG at best for 2014. Who is he superior than at the start of 2014?

And on Moylan...yeah I want him there too but you can't tell me the dude couldn't do with putting on a bit of extra bulk. I'd love him in there...but Austin is getting a run in Round 5...Moylan will get his go soon and VTK by mid year...Who else is screaming for a shot that has been consistent in the lower grades?

Travis Robinson was terrible last week, Sam Anderson has played well in 2 games and so so in the others, VTK hasn't taken the step yet, Matt Robinson was so-so last week but is 18th man so is already on the radar.

Who else? Who is absolutely screaming PICK ME apart from that? Masoe maybe? I can't bang the table for anyone else. I'd love to see Nabuli there but realistically...I agree with Massoud regarding his defense and communication.

The bigger issue for me is WHERE the players are playing. Whare is not a FB and wont be for long hopefully. If we get Whare and Roberts back in the centres and piss off Wes and Simmo and put Moylan at FB...BANG backline fixed.

Keep halves as is for this week and put Robbo in for Ciraldo...

So there aren't TOO many tweaks. You know what I mean? I'd like him to make a choice between Docker and Plum and drop one and put Masoe up but don't know if he will.

 

[chrisD]

It's besides the point, but in 2014, if we assume Cartwright's form stays persistent he'd be in my team at least on the bench so long as Austin isn't in strong form in the back row as they offer similar threats. He's a different beast to those others and if Austin isn't in the team or is in the halves I'd find a place for him at the expense of Robinson/VTK/Taylor as need be. It probably also depends on who the halves are and how they are going.

But here's the issue, the attitude Gould and possibly Cleary are displaying in relation to Moylan and Austin makes me very seriously doubt they'd consider Cartwright at that "stage of development" even if we have an injury blowout to multiple back rowers as is a very plausible scenario.

 

[Big Mick]

It's besides the point, but in 2014, if we assume Cartwright's form stays persistent he'd be in my team at least on the bench so long as Austin isn't in strong form in the back row as they offer similar threats. He's a different beast to those others and if Austin isn't in the team or is in the halves I'd find a place for him at the expense of Robinson/VTK/Taylor as need be. It probably also depends on who the halves are and how they are going.

But here's the issue, the attitude Gould and possibly Cleary are displaying in relation to Moylan and Austin makes me very seriously doubt they'd consider Cartwright at that "stage of development" even if we have an injury blowout to multiple back rowers as is a very plausible scenario.

It is exactly the point mate. The rationale behind the opinion of Cartwright being held back is citing of an example that will not be relevant in 2014 where we wont have such inferior players. You say there would be mediocre players holding him back...but the three you named are hardly mediocre..most are calling for them now! and he isn't near them right now...even if his form stays the same against inferior competition.

And you yourself just said that it depends on a number of factors...Austin, type of play etc as he offers something different which I agree with. But the fact we are now talking about circumstances....means that it isn't clear cut is it?

And your issue of the attitude of Gould & Cleary with Austin and Moylan....Austin is playing this week in Round 5...and Moylan needs to play a bit better to take that spot off Whare and he'll get his chance soon.

Cartwright will be considered when he is ready and better than who is there who you now say will depend on circumstances and whether or not Austin is at five-eight or backrow etc.

I'd imagine if we have an injury blowout next year that Cartwright would get a run. But fully fit...it wouldn't be until end of 2014 or beginning of 2015 that I'd consider him tbh. We have better players right now in front of him for 2014.

Please do not fret too much mate. I understand you are frustrated and you have EVERY RIGHT to be. And I'm not trying to be argumentative and mean. I'm just trying to provide rationale to counter the argument. I don't think it'll be as rosey as some make it out to be (Guilty!) but I don't think it'll be as bad as some think it will be either..

 

[MaxPower]

Anyway...Cleary is hardly in a win-win situation here.

He doesn't promote the guy...he is a shit coach because he isn't putting young guys up.

He does promote the guy and he suffers and never recovers his form and is out of the league...he is a shit coach because he put him up too early and Gus is shit because he didn't recruit anyone else.

The only win he gets is if puts the young guys up and they all go well.

Even then he'll still be called a shit coach, because he didn't promote them sooner.

 

[Pomoz]

But here's the issue, the attitude Gould and possibly Cleary are displaying in relation to Moylan and Austin makes me very seriously doubt they'd consider Cartwright at that "stage of development" even if we have an injury blowout to multiple back rowers as is a very plausible scenario.

Chris, Gus has won two Premierships and oversaw the building of a Roosters outfit that went from being a transit club to making 4 grand finals. Ivan has coached the Warriors to a Grand Final and has coached junior grades to Premierships. Do you really think if they thought that the team would be better if they promoted the juniors, that they wouldn't do that? You don't think Gus can spot a good junior player? Ivan promoted a number of juniors at the Warriors and has a track record of doing so. There is a massive scrap heap of players pushed too early who then fade away. Remember, 10% of players play only one first grade game. 73% manage less than 50 games. First Grade chews people up and spits them out. The physical toll it places on the body can wreck young players who are not ready.

If you think Ivan and Gus are idiots, then lets look at Wayne Bennett and Craig Bellamy. They do exactly the same as we are trying to do. They don't throw u20 players in at the deep end. At most, they may let them play one or two games (usually around SOO) and then drop them back into reserve grade. Last year Austin got a bit of a run. He is about to get another one. Bellamy is always adding depth by signing no name players. Why would he not just throw another junior in rather than sign Brian Norrie?

How many players do we see at the lower grades who look like world beaters and then when they step up are very ordinary. Masada Iosefa anyone? Harry Sjeika?

 

[franklin2323]

Pomoz, All the more reason to try as many as possible. Waddell was meant to be a star didn't get a game. Sammut lasted 20. Masada was terrible in 1st grade.

In 2006 we won all 3 junior grades. Yet got no one from those squads. 2007 we won u20's again got nothing from that win. So if they seem good enough now holding them back is crazy.

You mention the Warriors. That 2010 NYC team was the best I have seen yet from this GF team not many kicked on:

Fisiiahi,
Slaimankel,
Feki,
Likiliki,
Niko,
Tuimavave,
Johnson.
Areaiiti.
Chan-Ting,
Ioane,
Robinson,
Taylor,
Ikahihiko.

Seluini,
Cubb,
Lousi,
Palau,
Henry didn't play.

At 23 most will never see FG. So best to test them even in NSW Cup as early as possible.

From u16's to NYC there's roughly 60 players only 5-6 will make it as even standard 1st graders. 5-6 from NYC look to be able to handle NSW Cup now try & now and go from there.

Big Mick. I am not talking NYC. The lack of interest promoting Windsor players is my concern.

Moylan 62 NYC games. Was good enough for the NSW residents side yet not good enough for a team hoping to not get the spoon. Despite being better fb option

Robinson graduated NYC in 2010. Played NSW GF in 2011. Was very strong last year. Seemingly had a full off-season. Ciraldo pretty average. Didn't play a trial 1st game is Round 3. Next week straight in 1st grade despite Robinson being 18th man.

Anderson IMO should be in on the bench. Newcastle NYC player of the year 2011. Full year in NSW Cup last year. Strong in the trials. Strong in NSW Cup round 1. Best forward last week.

 

[murraymob]

there is no doubt the term dud does not apply to cleary in any shape or form.But being a windsor man like franklin.I feel if your playing well at windsor you should get first shot if the first grader is not playing well.Moylan being the prime example
What more does he have to do.Whare is struggling and seem better suited at center.Put him there give moylan a shot

 

[MaxPower]

Mate, first grade doesn't exist to trial players no matter how much you wish otherwise.

 

[murraymob]

if your refering to moylan .He has had 2 seasons at windsor he is past the point of trialing and at the point of getting a shot

 

[MaxPower]

I was referring to franklin, who wants as many kids to play first grade as possible.

 

[franklin2323]

Mate, first grade doesn't exist to trial players no matter how much you wish otherwise.

Yeah because picking the players that train well is working well! Performance on the field counts more then anything.

Do you follow cricket?? How annoying is it hearing (insert name) has great net form when you have better with runs in Sheild? Same applies here.

We have holes in our roster like Fullback (Moylan), Halves (Austin), Backrow (Robinson) small bench (Anderson).

It's not like we replace the whole team or we are benching stars like Slater, Gallen & co. Our weaknesses have replacements waiting and they aren't going to be instantly ready.

 

[bellyache]

The truth is Panthers are keeping teams honest and still finding their feet, Lazurus could where the shoes.. I like him, last week 1 try and 4 goals.. hasn't Looked out of place in the NRL in the past.

 

[defunk]

I don't care JUST GLAD WALSH IS GONE.

 

[franklin2323]

I was referring to franklin, who wants as many kids to play first grade as possible.

No. I want from Windsor Moylan, Robinson, Austin, Robinson, Anderson in NRL. Replaced in Windsor by NYC players.

Then both go back at like round 20. Finish the year in their 'normal grades' using that experience and an off season start 2014 better then them not being tested.

 

[bellyache]

I don't care JUST GLAD WALSH IS GONE.

Bit harsh, his attacking kicks have been great and he was the man chopping GI's legs out v Rabbits. Walsh needs a creative 6 outside him.

 

[franklin2323]

Jennings went up & stayed up & missed part of his development. He should of gone back down after a few games. Same with Coote.

It's a balance NRL is so much faster then NSW Cup players need to taste it so they know what to expect then go back and use what they use and go from there.