Is St George Illawarra Still A Joint Venture Club

[The calm one]

After 22 years the parties' may no longer be joint venturers and the association is possibly a partnership?

According to footy tab they are a joint venture. When it all said and done it all comes back to the all mighty $$$$$$$$$$. Call it what you like

 

[Willow]

Just a trivial question.
When did the club stop being the "Saints" and start being the "Dragons"
I will always regard our team as St. George and our moniker "The Saints"
The team song has no reference to dragons...
Call me sentimental

"The Dragons" nickname existed well before the JV. But "The Saints" has been the most enduring nick since 1921.

Historically, the early nicknames were decided by the fans and/or the media. In 1921, "the Dragon Slayers" were common in the media but was perhaps shortened by the fans over time to become "Dragons". And for brief while, "the Illawarraites" were written in match reports - a bit of a mouthful that didn't fully catch on with the fans. (NB: everything south of the Cooks River was referred to as Illawarra back then).

There seems to be gap in the 30-40s as to what the nickname was, I'm guessing it just wasn't that important. But older fans like Clive James said he called us St George or just "Saints" and he made no mention of "the Dragons"

But from the 1950-60s, it appears to be there. I had a picture of fans hanging a "Dragons" banner over the fence at a game in the 1960s. Plus I recall as a child in the 60s hearing the same nick being uttered. The "St George Dragons" gained momentum in the media in the 1980s and definitely recall it becoming more officially adopted, albeit in tandem with "Saints".

But again, "the Saints" was the name that stuck best with the fans and still does to this day.

As you say, it is in the current team song. Interestingly, "When the Saints Go marching in" replaced "We are the St George Boys" as the team song when the JV came into being, so "Saints" is here for some time to come.

FTR, I call us St George or Saints, as do most of us when we go to Kogarah. Nothing sentimental about it imo, it;s just the way it is.

 

[Old Timer]

"The Dragons" nickname existed well before the JV. But "The Saints" has been the most enduring nick since 1921.

Historically, the early nicknames were decided by the fans and/or the media. In 1921, "the Dragon Slayers" were common in the media but was perhaps shortened by the fans over time to become "Dragons". And for brief while, "the Illawarraites" were written in match reports - a bit of a mouthful that didn't fully catch on with the fans. (NB: everything south of the Cooks River was referred to as Illawarra back then).

There seems to be gap in the 30-40s as to what the nickname was, I'm guessing it just wasn't that important. But older fans like Clive James said he called us St George or just "Saints" and he made no mention of "the Dragons"

But from the 1950-60s, it appears to be there. I had a picture of fans hanging a "Dragons" banner over the fence at a game in the 1960s. Plus I recall as a child in the 60s hearing the same nick being uttered. The "St George Dragons" gained momentum in the media in the 1980s and definitely recall it becoming more officially adopted, albeit in tandem with "Saints".

But again, "the Saints" was the name that stuck best with the fans and still does to this day.

As you say, it is in the current team song. Interestingly, "When the Saints Go marching in" replaced "We are the St George Boys" as the team song when the JV came into being, so "Saints" is here for some time to come.

FTR, I call us St George or Saints, as do most of us when we go to Kogarah. Nothing sentimental about it imo, it;s just the way it is.

Re everything south of Cooks River being the Illawarra that is a bit of an urban myth and has been posted on before. There certainly was the terminology of "Illawarra Highway" but as Sans Souci, Kogarah, Taren Point, Blakehurst, Rockdale etc are all south of the Cooks River and formed part of the "St George Area" which had its own County Council then I suggest the Illawarra was a fair bit south of that.
As a kid in the 50's we had relatives in Sutherland who were certainly considered part of the Sydney Metropolitan area but anything south of that or Port Hacking was pretty much considered the start of the south coast or Illawarra.

 

[denis preston]

Re everything south of Cooks River being the Illawarra that is a bit of an urban myth and has been posted on before. There certainly was the terminology of "Illawarra Highway" but as Sans Souci, Kogarah, Taren Point, Blakehurst, Rockdale etc are all south of the Cooks River and formed part of the "St George Area" which had its own County Council then I suggest the Illawarra was a fair bit south of that.
As a kid in the 50's we had relatives in Sutherland who were certainly considered part of the Sydney Metropolitan area but anything south of that or Port Hacking was pretty much considered the start of the south coast or Illawarra.

Illawarra Rd Arncliffe ?

 

[Dennis Papaioannou]

"The Dragons" nickname existed well before the JV. But "The Saints" has been the most enduring nick since 1921.

Historically, the early nicknames were decided by the fans and/or the media. In 1921, "the Dragon Slayers" were common in the media but was perhaps shortened by the fans over time to become "Dragons". And for brief while, "the Illawarraites" were written in match reports - a bit of a mouthful that didn't fully catch on with the fans. (NB: everything south of the Cooks River was referred to as Illawarra back then).

There seems to be gap in the 30-40s as to what the nickname was, I'm guessing it just wasn't that important. But older fans like Clive James said he called us St George or just "Saints" and he made no mention of "the Dragons"

But from the 1950-60s, it appears to be there. I had a picture of fans hanging a "Dragons" banner over the fence at a game in the 1960s. Plus I recall as a child in the 60s hearing the same nick being uttered. The "St George Dragons" gained momentum in the media in the 1980s and definitely recall it becoming more officially adopted, albeit in tandem with "Saints".

But again, "the Saints" was the name that stuck best with the fans and still does to this day.

As you say, it is in the current team song. Interestingly, "When the Saints Go marching in" replaced "We are the St George Boys" as the team song when the JV came into being, so "Saints" is here for some time to come.

FTR, I call us St George or Saints, as do most of us when we go to Kogarah. Nothing sentimental about it imo, it;s just the way it is.

Thank you for a most insightful and important (for the younger fans especially) post.
Much appreciated.

 

[Fat Tony Kandos]

When it all said and done it all comes back to the all mighty $$$$$$$$$$.

Exactly. Which is why (to answer Possm's question "Is St. George Illawarra still a joint venture club?") the ATO and ASIC, after roughly 22 years, may now consider the association a partnership?

 

[Willow]

Re everything south of Cooks River being the Illawarra that is a bit of an urban myth and has been posted on before. There certainly was the terminology of "Illawarra Highway" but as Sans Souci, Kogarah, Taren Point, Blakehurst, Rockdale etc are all south of the Cooks River and formed part of the "St George Area" which had its own County Council then I suggest the Illawarra was a fair bit south of that.
As a kid in the 50's we had relatives in Sutherland who were certainly considered part of the Sydney Metropolitan area but anything south of that or Port Hacking was pretty much considered the start of the south coast or Illawarra.

For what it's worth, I'm going back a little further than the 1950s.

In the early 1800s, south of the Cooks River was pretty much undisturbed. North of the Cooks River were settled sooner (eg Newtown, Marrickville, Canterbury etc). To go further south meant that you were heading to the Illawarra. At the time people didn't differentiate too much beyond that.

There are number of roads that went to river crossings and were regarded as such. Illawarra Road, Marrickville is one example, at the end of Illawarra Rd was a river crossing to Undercliffe. There used to be more indicators there that the area was (rightly or wrongly) associated with the Illawarra in these early colonial days.

There was no St George Council. The area got its name from the Parish of St George which was established in 1835, and many businesses derived their name from that. By the early 1900s the area was well enough developed for it have its own identity and therefore the name of the new Rugby League team. The nickname "Illawarraites" is an indication that the area still had an association with the Illawarra.

I've sometimes thought that if not for a quirk of history and a parish name, our Club could have been called Illawarra in 1921. Of course I'm just supposing now... but If that happened everything would be different and I doubt we'd be having this conversation.

 

[Old Timer]

For what it's worth, I'm going back a little further than the 1950s.

In the early 1800s, south of the Cooks River was pretty much undisturbed. North of the Cooks River were settled sooner (eg Newtown, Marrickville, Canterbury etc). To go further south meant that you were heading to the Illawarra. At the time people didn't differentiate too much beyond that.

There are number of roads that went to river crossings and were regarded as such. Illawarra Road, Marrickville is one example, at the end of Illawarra Rd was a river crossing to Undercliffe. There used to be more indicators there that the area was (rightly or wrongly) associated with the Illawarra in these early colonial days.

There was no St George Council. The area got its name from the Parish of St George which was established in 1835, and many businesses derived their name from that. By the early 1900s the area was well enough developed for it have its own identity and therefore the name of the new Rugby League team. The nickname "Illawarraites" is an indication that the area still had an association with the Illawarra.

I've sometimes thought that if not for a quirk of history and a parish name, our Club could have been called Illawarra in 1921. Of course I'm just supposing now... but If that happened everything would be different and I doubt we'd be having this conversation.

I didn’t actually say council I said “St George County Council” which was formed in 1920 and ran to 1979 and it was the electricity provider and maintainer of sub stations etc etc to the St George district which was incredibly large back then.
Many older posters would remeber St George Council’s Council iconic offices (with the St George range of stoves etc) in Forest Rd Hurstville which is well south of the Cooks River.

 

[Saints Forever]

I didn’t actually say council I said “St George County Council” which was formed in 1920 and ran to 1979 and it was the electricity provider and maintainer of sub stations etc etc to the St George district which was incredibly large back then.
Many older posters would remeber St George Council’s Council iconic offices (with the St George range of stoves etc) in Forest Rd Hurstville which is well south of the Cooks River.

And Montgomery Street Kogarah

 

[Old Timer]

And Montgomery Street Kogarah

There are many instances of street names in a different location so I think people are drawing very long bows
Belmore Rd Riverwood
George’s River Rd Punchbowl
Bathurst St Sydney
Goulburn St Sydney
If you google how did the Illawarra get it’s name whilst not definitive the explanation
is that Illawarra is the misspelling of an Aboriginal name “Allowrie or Eloura” with a note saying in 1817 Governor Macquarie referred to it as part of the coast known by the natives as the “Five Islands” which today is Port Kembla.
There were obviously many indigenous groups throughout the Cooks, Georges & Woronora River areas but Macquarie made his reference specifically to the south coast area.

 

[possm]

There are many instances of street names in a different location so I think people are drawing very long bows
Belmore Rd Riverwood
George’s River Rd Punchbowl
Bathurst St Sydney
Goulburn St Sydney
If you google how did the Illawarra get it’s name whilst not definitive the explanation
is that Illawarra is the misspelling of an Aboriginal name “Allowrie or Eloura” with a note saying in 1817 Governor Macquarie referred to it as part of the coast known by the natives as the “Five Islands” which today is Port Kembla.
There were obviously many indigenous groups throughout the Cooks, Georges & Woronora River areas but Macquarie made his reference specifically to the south coast area.

Getting back on topic.

If Illawarra Rugby Leagues Club joined with St George Leagues Club to form a join venture and then, Illawarra Rugby Leagues Club sold their shares to WIN TV. and no longer hold shares any longer, then surely there is no longer any joint venture. I'd say there is an association of some type between St George Leagues Club and WIN TV.

St George Rugby Leagues Club is the only football entity involved now.

 

[muzby]

Getting back on topic.

If Illawarra Rugby Leagues Club joined with St George Leagues Club to form a join venture and then, Illawarra Rugby Leagues Club sold their shares to WIN TV. and no longer hold shares any longer, then surely there is no longer any joint venture. I'd say there is an association of some type between St George Leagues Club and WIN TV.

St George Rugby Leagues Club is the only football entity involved now.

So you’re saying we should drop the JV team name?

Given WIN are the dominant partner, the name would change to the WIN Dragons.

I like it.. that’s the type of club name that’s marketable anywhere around the world.. No longer bounded by territory or location..

Cracking idea possum!

 

[Willow]

There are many instances of street names in a different location so I think people are drawing very long bows
Belmore Rd Riverwood
George’s River Rd Punchbowl
Bathurst St Sydney
Goulburn St Sydney
If you google how did the Illawarra get it’s name whilst not definitive the explanation
is that Illawarra is the misspelling of an Aboriginal name “Allowrie or Eloura” with a note saying in 1817 Governor Macquarie referred to it as part of the coast known by the natives as the “Five Islands” which today is Port Kembla.
There were obviously many indigenous groups throughout the Cooks, Georges & Woronora River areas but Macquarie made his reference specifically to the south coast area.

Ergo, it is drawing a long bow to suggest that all street names do not lead to that named location.

Of course Bathurst Street, Sydney doesn't go Bathurst - it was named after some English Earl. Goulburn Street was named after another Englishman who never came to Australia. Most old inner suburban roads have their origins from when the road network was very different and much smaller, often due to the natural barriers of the time. New roads emerge, old roads become shorter or may even cease to exist.

What we do know is in the 1800s people travelling down towards Cooks River (eg Illawarra Road) were heading towards Illawarra. There was a river crossing there...

...a punt also operated somewhere about the same time [1831] at Undercliffe, known as Thorpe's Punt. This was a link on one of the roads to the Illawarra district.
http://www2.canterbury.nsw.gov.au/cooknet/www/html/209-cooks-river-history.html

And FTR the 'five islands' reference also comes from the original name for Wollongong. As you say, not definitive. The invaders of the day didn't take a great deal of time to learn from the locals.

 

[Old Timer]

Ergo, it is also drawing a long bow to suggest that all street names do not lead to that named location.

Of course Bathurst Street, Sydney doesn't go Bathurst - it was named after some English Earl. Goulburn Street was named after another Englishman who never cane to Australia. Most old inner suburban roads have their origins from when the road network was very different and much smaller, often due to the natural barriers of the time. New roads emerge, old roads become shorter or may even cease to exist.

What we do know is in the 1800s people travelling down towards Cooks River (eg Illawarra Road) were heading towards Illawarra. There was a river crossing there...

...a punt also operated somewhere about the same time [1831] at Undercliffe, known as Thorpe's Punt. This was a link on one of the roads to the Illawarra district.
http://www2.canterbury.nsw.gov.au/cooknet/www/html/209-cooks-river-history.html

And FTR the 'five islands' reference also comes from the original name for Wollongong. As you say, not definitive. The invaders of the day didn't take a great deal of time to learn from the locals.

No doubt the name of the road can be the indicator of the final destination but that doesn’t mean that all that between the starting and finishing points are therefore categorised by the ultimate destination.
I’m away at the moment but I do have some books on early colonisation, expansion and names of suburbs and parishes so I will have a look see when I get home as it is a great subject to reflect on.
I have difficulty thinking that south of Cooks River would have been classified Illawarra in anything but the very earliest days of the colony but happy to be proven wrong.

 

[Willow]

Books? Don't do it OT. You can catch diseases from those things.

All this because of something I posted as an afterthought (in brackets) in a much larger post that was mostly on topic

How about we just declare you the winner?

 

[JDHD]

It wasn’t a joint venture, it was a hostile takeover

 

[Fat Tony Kandos]

It wasn’t a joint venture, it was a hostile takeover

I think it (quite intelligently and responsibly) begun as a joint venture and now in its true construction is a partnership.

Why do you consider it a hostile takeover?

Credit where it is due: Combining two (or was it three?) associations and successfully keeping that relationship together for nearly 22 years could not have been easy - look at the plight of Balmain, Western Suburbs, North Sydney, Manly-Warringah, Cronulla, Newcastle, Gold Coast, South Sydney, and Melbourne over the past 22 years.

Things also look on the up re: Gordon (see, the advertising thread), and, a new CEO.

Yes, I know, the coach, but in the scheme of things that is and will be a short-term problem (i.e., he is not going to be there in 22 years time), but, St. George Illawarra is an awesome club who is, in my opinion, sitting very well.

 

[Forster Dragon]

It wasn’t a joint venture, it was a hostile takeover

Crap

 

[Como Connection]

Thank you for a most insightful and important (for the younger fans especially) post.
Much appreciated.

Very wise man is our Willow.
CC

 

[Coffs dragon]

Still is and will always remain St. George Illawarra Dragons which is a joint venture in name & title irrespective of finance. Support by 2 regions of fans is imperative to survive.