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"It’s very realistic to say that we’ll have a second team in Brisbane in 2023": V'landys

Pj,Rj,Hj

Juniors
Messages
113
Any merit in a small renovation to the QASC as a short to medium term solution for a budget yet more capacity suitable stadium for the Roar, Reds and 2nd NRL Side?
I'm thinking as little as *$20 million.
Demolish the track and the temporary stands that boarder the track bends.
Replace the bench seating in the permanent Western Stand with the seating from the demolished stands.
Remodel the ground level of the Western Stand for field side, touchline suites and Bar/s (even at "pop-up" standard) if it isn't already.
Dismantle the modular Eastern Stand as it's basically glorified scaffold grandstand.
Reassemble the Eastern Stand 30/35m in towards the Western Stand.
Then small earthworks embankment terracing to square the ends, enclosing a rectangular pitch that's 128m/80m.
I can't imagine the maintenance cost would be much different to the current barely used facility. The rent would be cheaper than Suncorp.
If Brisbane gets the Olympics, used it for some minor sports or Field Hockey for one last hurrah, then demolish if the Western Stand has really reached the end of it's life.
Still, the corporate options in the Western Stand may be so antiquated that it isn't worth it. Is QASC any better or worse than Ballymore?
 
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Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
65,420
Arent brisbane in the running for the 2032 Olympics...surely there is a stadium in that

yes there is, for afl lol
The games will be the Qlnd games and qlnd already has three fit for purpose rectangular stadiums, not sure the olympics needs more than that? I guess if Redcliffe are announced as the new club soon then they could lobby to get Redcliffe stadium re developed to 25k nrl standard but not sure of it is actually needed air if qlnd govt would see it as a priority to spend $200mill on. Or for that matter of a nrl based in another peninsula area aka manly2 is a good idea.
 

mongoose

Coach
Messages
11,217
Any merit in a small renovation to the QASC as a short to medium term solution for a budget yet more capacity suitable stadium for the Roar, Reds and 2nd NRL Side?
I'm thinking as little as *$20 million.
Demolish the track and the temporary stands that boarder the track bends.
Replace the bench seating in the permanent Western Stand with the seating from the demolished stands.
Remodel the ground level of the Western Stand for field side, touchline suites and Bar/s (even at "pop-up" standard) if it isn't already.
Dismantle the modular Eastern Stand as it's basically glorified scaffold grandstand.
Reassemble the Eastern Stand 30/35m in towards the Western Stand.
Then small earthworks embankment terracing to square the ends, enclosing a rectangular pitch that's 128m/80m.
I can't imagine the maintenance cost would be much different to the current barely used facility. The rent would be cheaper than Suncorp.
If Brisbane gets the Olympics, used it for some minor sports or Field Hockey for one last hurrah, then demolish if the Western Stand has really reached the end of it's life.
Still, the corporate options in the Western Stand may be so antiquated that it isn't worth it. Is QASC any better or worse than Ballymore?

Better off building a boutique stadium at Perry Park, much more central and right next to Bowen Hills Station. I think Ballymore is getting a reno but will only be 18k or thereabouts. Problem with QSAC is its not near any train lines nor has any bars or anything near by. It's in a bit of a dead zone

Edit - i just looked on google maps and QSAC its beside a cemetery lol, no pun was intended
 
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LeagueXIII

First Grade
Messages
5,966
yes there is, for afl lol
The games will be the Qlnd games and qlnd already has three fit for purpose rectangular stadiums, not sure the olympics needs more than that? I guess if Redcliffe are announced as the new club soon then they could lobby to get Redcliffe stadium re developed to 25k nrl standard but not sure of it is actually needed air if qlnd govt would see it as a priority to spend $200mill on. Or for that matter of a nrl based in another peninsula area aka manly2 is a good idea.
True...not sure how many stadiums are required for soccer.
 
Messages
12,422
Better off building a boutique stadium at Perry Park, much more central and right next to Bowen Hills Station. I think Ballymore is getting a reno but will only be 18k or thereabouts. Problem with QSAC is its not near any train lines nor has any bars or anything near by. It's in a bit of a dead zone

Edit - i just looked on google maps and QSAC its beside a cemetery lol, no pun was intended
QEII Stadium should be demolished. It's a white elephant that never gets used for anything purposeful. The seats could be reused at community sports grounds.

If QEII Stadium were to be redeveloped then buses could exit the SE Busway at Garden City and travel up Kessels Rd to QEII Stadium.
 
Messages
12,422
If NRL stadiums needed to be in rich suburbs half the stadiums here in Sydney wouldn't exist.
I don't think a stadium in Ipswich will attract too many people from Brisbane and Logan. I went to a Jets game at North Ipswich Reserve around a decade ago and was disgusted by the aggression shown by some of the fans. It was a really unpleasant experience and most families wouldn't want their kids to experience anything like it. The place is as rough as Tweed Heads.
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
65,420
Now this is very interesting!!!

Part1

No one can say exactly how many pages were in the report. Some say 150, others suggest 250. Regardless, it is what is on the pages that matters. The devil, as they say, is in the detail.

In October 2019, a year-long study into the game’s footprint was presented to the ARL Commission. The details are sketchy but in an email to club chief executives 12 months earlier, the NRL said it wanted to consider a range of matters on the game’s future.

It talked about where the game would be in 2050. What should the game be doing to optimise its footprint? Was there enough talent to expand? The document was researched and compiled by the NRL’s strategic guru Lachlan Smith, hired by former chief executive Todd Greenberg and charged with surveying the expansionary landscape.

According to those with knowledge of Smith’s report, it indicated expansion was a risk. One source told the NRL that after reading the report, they believed expansion bordered on insanity.

Smith is now at the centre of the expansion debate again. This time, charged by ARL Commission chair Peter V’landys and NRL chief executive Andrew Abdo with determining whether the game should add another team in Brisbane
from 2023.

His old report is apparently gathering dust in a drawer somewhere at Rugby League Central, V’landys and Abdo overseeing a fresh dive into expansion.

It seems a fait accompli that the shift to 17 teams will get the green light. The three bidding groups were told to lodge expressions of interest this week, handed a secret code which enabled them to access the criteria and begin the formal process of applying to set up a new club in southeast Queensland.

Less than two years after the ARL Commission was handed a report that some would have you believe expansion was problematic, they are ready to hit the go button. The Gold Coast Titans are among those with deep concerns, having led the charge for clubs to hire their own consultancy firm to conduct their own inquiries expansion.

Up to 12 clubs will share the costs of the Gemba Group’s investigation, which is expected to be finalised in coming weeks. More about that later.

Firstly though, back to Smith’s original report. Sources with knowledge of the report say it talked about putting the kybosh on expansion for three reasons. One, the financial numbers didn’t stack up — the cost was prohibitive.

Two, the playing talent wasn’t there to support another team. And three, no sporting competition in their right mind moves to an odd number of teams, thereby ensuring one side has a bye each week while adding no extra games to each round.

“They were the big things that came out of it,” said a source familiar with the report.

“You need another 40-odd players. The view was you can find jersey fillers. But you are already finding three to five jersey fillers in every club at the moment. That is very subjective, but that’s what the paper said.”

Gold Coast chair Dennis Watt, whose club led the charge to hire the Gemba Group, believes that two-year-old report should play a part in the current decision-making.

He wants the ARL Commission to share it with the clubs so they can make a three-pronged decision on whether they support expansion. They can consider Smith’s original document. They can look at the new report he is preparing for the commission. And they can consider the Gemba Group findings.

“There are three bodies of work that need to be reviewed,” Watt said. “The work being done by the NRL under Lachlan Smith, who was heavily involved in the last expansion work.

“The work the 12 clubs are getting done through Gemba — three-quarters of the clubs are helping fund this independent analysis of expansion in the Brisbane market.

“There is also a 250-page report that was presented to the ARLC in October 2019, which was firmly against the introduction of a 17th team and said there was no case for a 17th team.

“They committed considerable resources to that. It should be available. It may well be that covering the same territory but I think what happened there was they were talking about merging teams.

“From what we were told, the overwhelming finding was that the 17th team was not a worthwhile pursuit.

“If it is proven it grows the entire pie and does not diminish it, we will have a look at it. Our feeling is it might be a bit premature for us.

“It is three years under the current ownership and the ownership was forced to pay a significant amount of money for the privilege of taking over the basket case for the NRL.

“But we are still battling to be an NRL team and it is pretty clear there will be competition not just for players, but also for coaches, for staff, for sponsors and for members because it is just up the road.

“There is definitely going to be an inflationary effect right across the industry, but particularly so for us. It is already the case that managers and platers are sitting back and waiting to see what offers come in from the 17th team. So it does complicate your roster management even more.”
The sense among some in clubland is that the decision has already been made. That expansion is a fait accompli. V’landys and Abdo insist that is far form the case, a point they have made to clubs during visits in recent weeks.

Next week, they will head to Brisbane for Magic Round and meet the three Queensland clubs. Among them will be the Gold Coast, the club some would say with the most to lose from expansion.

The Broncos are a juggernaut. The Titans are only a few short years removed from teetering on extinction. V’landys and Abdo insist they should have nothing to fear.

Only when Smith presents his latest deep dive into expansion will a call be made. Even then, the broadcasters will have a part to play.

Within weeks, the ARL Commission should have a better idea of the merits of the respective bid teams — the Brisbane Jets, Brisbane Firehawks and Redcliffe have put their hand up to join the competition.

V’landys insists the clubs they have met thus far have dropped any resistance once they have had their club visits and been taken through the plans for expansion,

“We haven’t found that resistance for any of them,” V’landys said.
“Once they understand the strategy they have a different view on it and they have an open mind on it.

“What we said all along was that the business case has to stack up. That is why we have gone out with the expressions of interest.

“As Andrew and I have both said, it is not a fait accompli. It has to add value to the game. The reason we are looking at it is because Queensland is a major market for us and we want to have prominence in the Brisbane market every week, not every second week.
“You have eight teams in Sydney and one in Brisbane. When we go to broadcasters, Origin is important.

“You need to have pathways in various forms in Queensland. Otherwise you are not going to get future Queensland players.

“Like it or not, other sports have made inroads up there and we need to counteract it. We have a duty to make the game the most popular sport in Australia.

“Any board, that should be their objective.”

Abdo added: “We have asked for expressions of interest because some of the questions we have to satisfy the commission with we can only do after we engage the bidders.

“It is also about what your brand will deliver to the game. What is your plan for acquiring new fans? What is your plan for participation and elite player development.

“The answers around whether this is viable to some extent has to come in some way from understanding the strategy, understanding the capabilities and understand the financial security.

“You can’t answer the question on whether or not it works until you engage with the potential bidders and understand whether they have financial security.”


V’landys and Abdo have some powerful figures in their corner. When the pair flew to America early last year, before COVID-19 turned the world on its head, they received the imprimatur of News Corp (publisher of The Weekend Australian) boss Lachlan Murdoch, whose company is the major shareholder of the Broncos.

“We’re certainly not opposed to a second team in Brisbane,” Broncos chair Karl Morris said.

“We’re still to see the report from the NRL. But the Broncos have looked at rivalries not only in Australia, but other places in the world where they have a local derby, and it has always been relatively successful.

“It takes a long time for the second team to get to economic viability — just as long as it isn’t at the serious expense of other teams.”

Sydney Roosters supremo Nick Politis and South Sydney chair Nick Pappas have backed a 17th team in southeast Queensland as has seven-time premiership winner Wayne Bennett, although his support should be balanced against the point that he is on the lookout for a new job at the end of the season and the expansion franchise beckons.

Supporters of expansion use the example of Manchester United and Manchester City. Would Manchester United have supported City being formed? Likewise Adelaide and Port Adelaide in the AFL and West Coast and Fremantle. Those respective rivalries have become integral parts of their respective competitions.

So, they say, will a Brisbane rivalry involving the Broncos and a new team. Things will, however, get interesting if the Gemba investigation comes back with a finding that expansion cannot work.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/sp...n/news-story/7589862cda76e14fe9a6fbef8a944a71
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
65,420
Part 2


Privately, there is cynicism at Rugby League Central over the veracity of the Gemba inquiries. They are unlikely to engage in depth with broadcasters or have intimate knowledge of the game’s finances.

Nevertheless, the natural question is to ask what would happen if the Gemba Group reject expansion and the commission presses ahead anyway, Watt said: “I think we would have a conflict. I think he fact that three-quarters of the club want to conduct their own independent analysis speaks volumes.

“There are probably some lessons to be learned from the expansion of the AFL competition to 17 and 18 teams.

“That hasn’t been inversely applauded especially in terms of the dramatic blowouts that happen regularly in games, and they have a draft which is about more even distribution of talent.

“Because the bulk of our money comes from broadcast we have to be very careful that we retain that spectacle of evenly-matched teams going up against each other each week.”

Ultimately the decision will rest with the commission. V’landys will take advice and study the analytics, something he has consistently done during his time in charge.

Remember COVID-19 last year and the push to have the competition back by May 28. V’landys studied infection rates and declared it would happen as the sporting world looked on with cynicism.

He had the last laugh. He insists his and the commission’s only concern is fortifying the game’s future. That won’t be done at the expense of the existing clubs, but there is an acknowledgment that the game needs to do more to protect its patch in southeast Queensland.

“The big thing for me is participation,” V’landys said.

“Everything the commission is going to do in the next five years is going to revolved around participation. When we look at the expressions of interest, the things I am going to focus on is how are they going to improve participation, how are they going to include women in the game, how are they going to set up their pathways?

“The whole purpose of this is to look at the game as a whole, not individual clubs. The commissioner’s role and strategy is to grow the game and keep it vibrant in key markets.

“I have been on the record every single time … that the business case has to stack up. I have said it all the time. We will always look at ways to improve ourselves and improve the competition, and ensure that we ‘re not complacent. If we didn’t do this exercise, we are negligent in our duties because we are not looking at how to improve the game.”

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/sp...n/news-story/7589862cda76e14fe9a6fbef8a944a71
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
65,420
Some of the key points out of that very good article.
1. Clubs are far from convinced, especially Gold Coast.
2. The original Greenberg report said 17 teams was ludicrous as it didn’t generate extra content and therefore any extra direct revenue
3. Vlandys doesn’t know what he wants, one sentence he says it’s their job to grow the game across Australia, next he says it’s all about a vibrant existing market
4. Player Depth remains a key sticking point despite it being an unmeasurable thing.
 
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The Great Dane

First Grade
Messages
7,726
Some of the key points out of that very good article.
1. Clubs are far from convinced, especially Gold Coast.
2. The original Greenberg report said 17 teams was ludicrous as it didn’t generate extra content and therefore any extra direct revenue
3. Vlandys doesn’t know what he wants, one sentence he says it’s their job to grow the game across Australia, next he says it’s all about a vibrant existing market
4. Player Depth remains a key sticking point despite it being an unmeasurable thing.
It also strongly suggests that Greenberg/Smith’s initial report was pushing rationalisation, which is interesting.

Looks we might be headed for a power struggle between V’landys and the majority of the clubs as well.
 

MugaB

Coach
Messages
11,822
It also strongly suggests that Greenberg/Smith’s initial report was pushing rationalisation, which is interesting.

Looks we might be headed for a power struggle between V’landys and the majority of the clubs as well.
I wonder if the initial report was based on how NRL HQ was being run too, with the over staffing and blown out expenses in and around them, also the money spent on 2 refs, along with the blown out amounts each club was spending on their own football departments.
I'm not saying these were definitely factors in whatever findings there was regarding a 17th team, just saying were these factored in, and what would be the difference now, will the cost of a new team be affordable since all the cost cutting done this past year, compared to 2-3 years ago when the original study was done.

Plus was this original study done on a generic team coming from anywhere, or specifically SEQ, coz there probably are a lot more factors that might boost the expansion viability to a yes, being in a certain area, or having a certain bid in brisbane versus a bid in a city with little junior participation, like Adelaide for instance.
 
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Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
65,420
I wonder if the initial report was based on how NRL HQ was being run too, with the over staffing and blown out expenses in and around them, also the money spent on 2 refs, along with the blown out amounts each club was spending on their own football departments.
I'm not saying these were definitely factors in whatever findings there was regarding a 17th team, just saying were these factored in, and what would be the difference now, will the cost of a new team be affordable since all the cost cutting done this past year, compared to 2-3 years ago when the original study was done.

Plus was this original study done on a generic team coming from anywhere, or specifically SEQ, coz there probably are a lot more factors that might boost the expansion viability to a yes, being in a certain area, or having a certain bid in brisbane versus a bid in a city with little junior participation, like Adelaide for instance.

it was done looking at expansion options everywhere. I know they came to perth to talk to govt’s and backers here. I’d love to get my hands on a copy!

re finances, nrl was in first two years of the new tv deal and had a $42.8mill surplus in 2018 and $30.1million in 2019 so when the report was done they were pretty flush with spare cash.
 
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flippikat

Bench
Messages
4,379
Disappointed with the Titans as they seem to be the club leading the resistance against expansion. They've had over 10 years now to sort their shit out if they can't make it work on the Gold Coast then they shouldn't be in the comp. They only have to compete against one team unlike Sydney clubs which are competing against 8!

If they can't cut it where they are, then re-brand as "South Queensland *something*", play most home games at Suncorp & take a few each year to the GC.
 

flippikat

Bench
Messages
4,379
It also strongly suggests that Greenberg/Smith’s initial report was pushing rationalisation, which is interesting.

Looks we might be headed for a power struggle between V’landys and the majority of the clubs as well.

One of the key points they made was about player depth - the curious thing is that there seems to be no recommendation about how to tackle that AND expand (if expansion is deemed desirable).

Assuming that growing the player base will take time, and expansion is deemed an urgent priority - does the report recommend more mergers, or demoting teams to NSW Cup, or relocations?

Or does the report make no assessment of those options?

From the sound of it, either the report doesn't touch that topic - OR there's something hidden (redacted?).

About time the plethora of reports done over the years was opened up (as much as possible) to scrutiny.
 

MugaB

Coach
Messages
11,822
One of the key points they made was about player depth - the curious thing is that there seems to be no recommendation about how to tackle that AND expand (if expansion is deemed desirable).

Assuming that growing the player base will take time, and expansion is deemed an urgent priority - does the report recommend more mergers, or demoting teams to NSW Cup, or relocations?

Or does the report make no assessment of those options?

From the sound of it, either the report doesn't touch that topic - OR there's something hidden (redacted?).

About time the plethora of reports done over the years was opened up (as much as possible) to scrutiny.
If you merge or demote, you are not expanding, maybe relocations, but anything less than 17 teams will not be expansion...
Talented player depth is a myth, nearly every round there is a rookie from some club either playing his very first nrl game, or playing their first Nrl game for a new club they've gone to, Zac Cini debuted for Tigers 2 weeks ago, Scott Sorenson debuted for Penrith this past weekend, these 2 players have taken someones 1st grade spot, either thru injury or just form, either way there's 2 more players who have joined the 1st grade club somewhere, Charlie Staines debuted for Penrith last year, scored 4 tries on debut, and effectively took Josh Mansours 1st grade spot, josh has since gone to souths, and taken Jackon Paulos spot, the merry go round continues, Adam Reynolds is unwanted at souths as 2 new rookie halves are set to take over in the coming seasons, a new QLD franchise could do with a adam reynolds. Even without expansion, players leave the Pacific to get better contracts in Europe or Union, talent is subjective to how good that roster has been put together.
Manly without Tommy Turbo, is pretty pathetic, but with him, they can match some of the better teams.
 
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