Ivan Cleary One Step Away from the Dragons!!

[Uplifting]

He turned us into a very good defensive, disciplined, hard working and consistent team. But we were never a good attacking team under him, he seemed to value an honest reliable toiler with low error rates in nearly every position. I think he actually liked when we had backs get injured, as it let him play second rowers out there.

I think there might be some truth in what you are saying. Through what was reported through the club's website, the same players who stood out at training, not in the sense of talent but more in the area of hard work, were the same ones selected. Guys like, Rein, Debelin, Aitken and even Matautia were always rewarded with being selected in the 1st grade team.

So in hindsight, it makes sense that a team of players who are hard working, would have the ability to cart the ball up or defend. But not necessarily to score points.

If Mary went the other way and observed who were the creative ones, or even the ones who had the confidence to take the contest to the other team, the main stayers would have been players like Milne, Luciano, FFL, even Quinlan (as well as others that were like Dugan, Frizel and Marshall offcourse).

I just feel sorry for players like Havili and Lui, who I'm sure tried so very hard to keep up with their counterparts but were never going to beat them in a fitness training competition. I reckon these boys didn't get back what they put in. This is about man management too, you need to understand your players. Also, these boys might be a bit shy socially and may have been overlooked for the 'larrikins'. Status would normally be earned on the field! And not in the change rooms!

Mary needed to value skill, character (on the field) and attacking team work/ creativity, more than he did. I believe we had a great squad this year, with a great work ethic right across the squad, but the best PLAYERS (not trainers) weren't selected. And, this is why the Dragons couldn't score many points (even though I'm sure they rehearsed those players over and over again). This may also explain why the lower grades did so well (ie some of our best attacking players played in those teams). Makes sense I think.

 

[Dragonslayer]

I think there might be some truth in what you are saying. Through what was reported through the club's website, the same players who stood out at training, not in the sense of talent but more in the area of hard work, were the same ones selected. Guys like, Rein, Debelin, Aitken and even Matautia were always rewarded with being selected in the 1st grade team.

So in hindsight, it makes sense that a team of players who are hard working, would have the ability to cart the ball up or defend. But not necessarily to score points.

If Mary went the other way and observed who were the creative ones, or even the ones who had the confidence to take the contest to the other team, the main stayers would have been players like Milne, Luciano, FFL, even Quinlan (as well as others that were like Dugan, Frizel and Marshall offcourse).

I just feel sorry for players like Havili and Lui, who I'm sure tried so very hard to keep up with their counterparts but were never going to beat them in a fitness training competition. I reckon these boys didn't get back what they put in. This is about man management too, you need to understand your players. Also, these boys might be a bit shy socially and may have been overlooked for the 'larrikins'. Status would normally be earned on the field! And not in the change rooms!

Mary needed to value skill, character (on the field) and attacking team work/ creativity, more than he did. I believe we had a great squad this year, with a great work ethic right across the squad, but the best PLAYERS (not trainers) weren't selected. And, this is why the Dragons couldn't score many points (even though I'm sure they rehearsed those players over and over again). This may also explain why the lower grades did so well (ie some of our best attacking players played in those teams). Makes sense I think.

Good post Uplifting.

I'd like to add that I think McGregor had/has an issue with trust, stubbornness and with making hard decisions.
He was reliant on "old guard" players, players that played obviously busted and playing players out of position. The "D" line was always a deflection, something that would smooth over the cracks that were rapidly getting larger each week. Once those cracks became too cavernous, he then moved to the "blame" game.
If he had accepted ownership, gave fair and accountable explanations and heeded advice, we and he would not be talking about replacements, in fact 50% of the threads on this forum probably wouldn't even exist......including this one.

 

[BennyV]

Cleary has an overall 49% success rate for 28 points and Mary has a 42% success rate for 24 points this year as opposed to 28 points for last year. Not a huge difference. We need a coach with at least a 60% success rate. While 27 points was 8th position this year 32 points was 7th this year. I believe that our coach should be aiming for a Top 6 or better position meaning 34 points or more.

Which narrows it down to Bellamy, Green, Robinson or Bennett. Thats all.

Using a winning percentage alone is not enough to judge a coach. It's the equivalent of saying Hazem El Mazri was the best player to ever play because he scored the most points. Or that Merritt deserved to play origin because he was the best try scorer for so long. There's a lot more factors involved, with the obvious one being the team itself.

If you look even the tiniest bit deeper at Cleary, his career is very impressive. He took the Warriors to the finals 4/6 years he was there, and would have been 5/6 except they lost points due to being over the cap the previous year (before he started). That record included a grand final. By comparison, the Warriors have made the finals 3/15 years without him. Those stats clearly indicate that theres a far deeper cultural issue at the Warriors, and that Cleary was able to overcome that to build success.

You then look at Penrith. Before him coming along, Panthers had made the finals once in 8 years, narrowly avoided the spoon and had salary cap issues that make our club look like a well-oiled machine. Within 2 years, he re-vamped the roster and built to a Top 4 team and a pre-lim final. Yes, he had a crappy 2015 with an almost reserve grade side for most of the season due to a horrible injury run, but the evidence is there. And that rebuilding is something we will need over the next years too.

He is by far the best coach on the market, and better than half the coaches currently employed. To say he's a level above Mary is the understatement of the century; he's in a whole new league to McGregor. Not signing him would be a monumental f**k up.

 

[betcats]

Iven is a good coach he will be a big improvement. Re Nathan I could see him leaving in 5 or 6 years especially if our potential fizzles out. He will understand its a business more than most so he wont get bogged down with that loyalty bullshit for long. It wont be before then though, he had a get out clause for his dad in his contract and choose to remove it when he re-signed this year. But either way Ivan will get you guys moving up the table, he inherited a mess at Penrith and did well with it while bringing some good players through. We never really got to see what he could do with a decent injury free run and an established team.

 

[grouch]

It's a peculiar situation isn't it... an NRL coach, coaching against his own son. Imagine forming a game plan to nullify the opposition halfback - you're essentially plotting to exploit your own son's weaknesses! That'd be tough. Wonder if it's ever happened in the game's history?

 

[betcats]

It's a peculiar situation isn't it... an NRL coach, coaching against his own son. Imagine forming a game plan to nullify the opposition halfback - you're essentially plotting to exploit your own son's weaknesses! That'd be tough. Wonder if it's ever happened in the game's history?

John and Marty Lang? Ive seen it in the NBA a couple times. Doc Rivers even traded for and coached his own son the lasdt couple years.

 

[Dea]

Imagine the conversation at home in the week before the game. I reckon Dad would be adding a whole lot of house chores for Nathan to do... Dig a hole here, then move it to the other side of the yard....

 

[Dragon Revival]

I am not saying do not sign Ivan Cleary. We need to have a shortlist which includes at least Cleary(49%), Hagan(53%) , Toovey(58%), Demetriou and Head(65% this year) and pick the coach with the best credentials. I do not necessarily believe that Cleary is the best option and that there may be other alternatives which need to be considered. Demetriou and Head together could be a good option as they intimately know the skills of the players and their teams this year won nearly 2 out of 3 games that they played compared to Mary's success rate of 2 out of 5 games. I do not want us to maintain Mary as he has lost the plot and his selections are illogical.

 

[hazzbeen]

I am not saying do not sign Ivan Cleary. We need to have a shortlist which includes at least Cleary(49%), Hagan(53%) , Toovey(58%), Demetriou and Head(65% this year) and pick the coach with the best credentials. I do not necessarily believe that Cleary is the best option and that there may be other alternatives which need to be considered. Demetriou and Head together could be a good option as they intimately know the skills of the players and their teams this year won nearly 2 out of 3 games that they played compared to Mary's success rate of 2 out of 5 games. I do not want us to maintain Mary as he has lost the plot and his selections are illogical.

At the stage we are at , even Price looks good compared to Mary any of the above are better .......

 

[grouch]

John and Marty Lang? Ive seen it in the NBA a couple times. Doc Rivers even traded for and coached his own son the lasdt couple years.

Just checked rugbyleagueproject and nup, John never coached against Marty. Always at the same club. Martin retired before John went to Souths

 

[Sigurd]

Cleary turned the Warriors from a basket case to a powerhouse. I think a lot of the success Penrith have now is due to Cleary. Much like Bennett in regard to the Broncos and Griffin last year. Penrith had an incredibly bad run with injuries last year.

My first choice would still be Brian Smith for 2 years with an option in the clubs favor for a third. He doesn't seem to be in high demand so that should be easily doable. Apparently the Warriors are interested in Cleary so getting such a contract for him may be more difficult. Clearly will at least be better than just "ok" and that is infinitely better than we have had since supercoach Price took over.

 

[Dragon Revival]

On the subject of John Lang he could be a good coaching director for a Demetriou/Head coaching combination. He
would instil some toughness into our players and solve the positional problems.
He is a no nonsense type of guy noted for his tenacity.

 

[Objective View]

On the subject of John Lang he could be a good coaching director for a Demetriou/Head coaching combination. He
would instil some toughness into our players and solve the positional problems.
He is a no nonsense type of guy noted for his tenacity.

Although you've tried to explain it, I don't understand your fascination with recommending rookie coaches.

We don't need a coaching director or support staff to accomodate lack of experience, we need a good head coach. Simple.

Straight Shooter

 

[blacksafake]

Which narrows it down to Bellamy, Green, Robinson or Bennett. Thats all.

Using a winning percentage alone is not enough to judge a coach. It's the equivalent of saying Hazem El Mazri was the best player to ever play because he scored the most points. Or that Merritt deserved to play origin because he was the best try scorer for so long. There's a lot more factors involved, with the obvious one being the team itself.

If you look even the tiniest bit deeper at Cleary, his career is very impressive. He took the Warriors to the finals 4/6 years he was there, and would have been 5/6 except they lost points due to being over the cap the previous year (before he started). That record included a grand final. By comparison, the Warriors have made the finals 3/15 years without him. Those stats clearly indicate that theres a far deeper cultural issue at the Warriors, and that Cleary was able to overcome that to build success.

You then look at Penrith. Before him coming along, Panthers had made the finals once in 8 years, narrowly avoided the spoon and had salary cap issues that make our club look like a well-oiled machine. Within 2 years, he re-vamped the roster and built to a Top 4 team and a pre-lim final. Yes, he had a crappy 2015 with an almost reserve grade side for most of the season due to a horrible injury run, but the evidence is there. And that rebuilding is something we will need over the next years too.

He is by far the best coach on the market, and better than half the coaches currently employed. To say he's a level above Mary is the understatement of the century; he's in a whole new league to McGregor. Not signing him would be a monumental f**k up.

Imo, Spot on BV.

 

[TomRedVRiver]

Which narrows it down to Bellamy, Green, Robinson or Bennett. Thats all.

Using a winning percentage alone is not enough to judge a coach. It's the equivalent of saying Hazem El Mazri was the best player to ever play because he scored the most points. Or that Merritt deserved to play origin because he was the best try scorer for so long. There's a lot more factors involved, with the obvious one being the team itself.

If you look even the tiniest bit deeper at Cleary, his career is very impressive. He took the Warriors to the finals 4/6 years he was there, and would have been 5/6 except they lost points due to being over the cap the previous year (before he started). That record included a grand final. By comparison, the Warriors have made the finals 3/15 years without him. Those stats clearly indicate that theres a far deeper cultural issue at the Warriors, and that Cleary was able to overcome that to build success.

You then look at Penrith. Before him coming along, Panthers had made the finals once in 8 years, narrowly avoided the spoon and had salary cap issues that make our club look like a well-oiled machine. Within 2 years, he re-vamped the roster and built to a Top 4 team and a pre-lim final. Yes, he had a crappy 2015 with an almost reserve grade side for most of the season due to a horrible injury run, but the evidence is there. And that rebuilding is something we will need over the next years too.

He is by far the best coach on the market, and better than half the coaches currently employed. To say he's a level above Mary is the understatement of the century; he's in a whole new league to McGregor. Not signing him would be a monumental f**k up.

This is the best and most informed post I have seen on this forum in months. You hit the nail on the head Benny, nobody could have said it better and hopefully this shuts up a few of the sceptics.

 

[St Georgio]

Experience coach is what the Dragons need, JD might turn out OK, so too Head, but if JD was smart he would go off to ESL , win a couple of comps there, then try giving it a go here, Ivan Cleary, Brian/Tony Smith for me.

 

[Walpole]

Cleary or T.Smith for mine too. I like Garth Brennan and JD as well but the tried and true path for those sort of guys is through Super League. The path for McGregor goes in the opposite direction to any sort of coaching gig.

 

[Dragon Revival]

Bellamy and Bennett are obviously the best coaches.
The Dragons have had little
success in appointing coaches which shows that their selection process is flawed. They should search far and wide and undertake a proper recruitment process.
I would be prepared to back my judgement but that will probably not happen as they
will probably appoint Cleary and then sack him like Gould did. Bennett was the only standout coach employed by the Dragons since Harry Bath.
However Brian Smith and Andrew Farrar/David Waite got them to Grand Finals so it does not hurt to look outside the square. If Cleary interviews the best appoint him.

 

[dino2170]

so did we sign him or not

 

[dragonreddy]

I am not saying do not sign Ivan Cleary. We need to have a shortlist which includes at least Cleary(49%), Hagan(53%) , Toovey(58%), Demetriou and Head(65% this year) and pick the coach with the best credentials. I do not necessarily believe that Cleary is the best option and that there may be other alternatives which need to be considered. Demetriou and Head together could be a good option as they intimately know the skills of the players and their teams this year won nearly 2 out of 3 games that they played compared to Mary's success rate of 2 out of 5 games. I do not want us to maintain Mary as he has lost the plot and his selections are illogical.

Not having a crack at you but to compare JD and Matty Head's winning percentages with the NRL coaches just isn't comparing apples with apples.