Lockyer > Johns: no contest

[ANTiLAG]

Complete lies actually, the Knights without Johns were atrocious whereas the Cowboys without Thurston almost made the grand-final.
Let's see you try and twist that.

Yet with Thurston they actually made the grand final. Joey led the Knights to dead last the very same year. Twisted enough?

So where Johns had the ability to make his teammates look better and get rep jerseys they didn't deserve, Thyrston had the opposite effect?

Who did not deserve their Australian jerseys and only got them because of Joey? I thought he just brought Bedurus with him and Priddis got stuffed.

Yeah it was Harragon who made Johns the dominant player he was in the 2000's...from the grandstand.

Since when were we we only talking 2000's?

Convenient for you, lucky you don't run a business where these 'oversights' would have you laughed at and lose you any credibility.

Well if it was professional the facts would have been researched further for veracity. However, as you find Tonga and Bowen, I have many many more Newcastle Internaionals. None of which you ever offered up. Disclosure works two ways. You have done none at all.

So you think the Knights would have made a grand-final in 2001 without Johns playing a single game?

Whats that mean? You think the Cows would have in 2005 if Thurston had not played a single game? Relevance. What are you on about?

So he walked into a team that was on the edge of a grand-final, and has proceeded to miss out on the finals series four times in six years since, often in spectacular fashion.

Look at the talent he has had at his disposal - now compare that to Joeys.

f**k, he took them from 3rd to 2nd. Give the merkin a medal :lol:

Well in 4 years Joey took the Knights from first to last. He deserves the medal!

He walked into a very good team, you lied. That's all there is to it.

No I said what I said was he did not have the talent in that team that Joey always had around him throughout his career. No lies. You're just ignorant and do not comprehend. This is what I said

"If he had the cattle Joey had at club - the Cows would have won in 05 - and made more grand finals." You then misconstrue this idiotically as me saying Thurston only had chumps around him and the Cows are a chump team. Not what I said at all. No lies. You're just illiterate.

They have also had great players like Luke O'Donnell, Willie Tonga and Matt Scott emerge/come to the club in that time. And all of a sudden Steve Simpson is the greatest forward in the history of the world when it suits you.

Lets compare international players at the end of this post. Where have I ever said a bad word about Simpson? Hey you're the one pointing out Rauhihi was a great prop which I even agree with. I just said Harrogan was better.

Whatever you think the thread is about, it does not give you a free license to lie to suit yourself.

If forgetful omissions of Bowen and Tonga playing for Australia as I am making a point is lying then you lied by not further disclosing all the reps past, present and future that Joey played with. Have you lied? Be consistent now.

I'm sorry, read a newspaper. Every second article refers to Thurston as the best player in the game. You might want to check some of the front pages from when he re-signed with the Cowboys this year.

He is the best player in the game in my view. Why does that make him a media darling?

Well this is probably why you've been talking such weird sh*t all thread, when you can't even read the title.

Did the title include Tonga and Bowen played for Australia? No. You have been equal party in the conversation.

You are absolutely deluded. Undeniably, if you think that is what I am disputing in the slightest.

WHo has the better origin history in your view? Thurston or Joey? Answer it please.

Firstly, don't forget to omit internationals like Willie Tonga or it might make you look like more of an idiot...oh wait, whoops. Sorry.

Secondly, do you really think the Knights would have made the grand-final at any point during Johns's career if he wasn't there? Because the Cowboys did, the year before Thurston turned up.

1992. Knights came fourth. Joey debut'd next year. Took them to tenth in 1994. Woopee.

I don't care that much that I am going to soend days arguing with a complete idiot who continues to lie and twist the truth. But you saying Thurston walked into a sh*t team incapable of winning the competition is a complete lie, and you know it.

Never said sh*t team. You are the liar. Never have you quoted where I apprently said this. You are so emotional about someone questioning Joeys record.

Now I do not claim to be an almanack - but this is a growing list of internationals Joey has played with at Newcastle

1 ODavis
2Kennedy
3 Muir
4 Sargent
5 Ainscough
6 Carney
7 M Johns
8 Harrogan
9 Tahu
10 M Gidley
11 K Gidley
12 Sargent
13 Muir
14 Mad Dog
15 Perry
16 Robbie Ross
17 Bedarus.
18 Simpson

I'm sure there is more too. I am not lying by omitting them - I just cannot be bothered researchign them. This ignores those who merely played origin such as Hughes.

1 Webb
2 LOD
3 Sing
4 Rauhihi
5 Mason
6 Bowen.
7 Tonga

Wow - put Thurston in the group A and see if Newcastle would have only won 1.5 premierships then.

You're the one who lies by saying I said the Cowboys were a crap team. I never said that at all. I said Thurston did not have the same talent around him Johns did - I offer the above list to proove my point.

I never said it was a comprehensive list - nor do I now - but look at the difference in the talent pool there. The point is valid as much now as it was pre Bowen and Tonga. There were no lies. There are no lies now. If you cannot see that the point is still valid and one or two omissions is merely splitting hairs then you have limited potential in life.

 

[typicalfan]

Thurston is a better player than Johns now? :sarcasm:

Thurston is a great player but not in the same mould as a Johns or Lockyer.

 

[ANTiLAG]

Nice little edit.

Clearly you were asleep during 2005, there's not much more that can be said about it, and it proves that you are indeed just being moronic for the sake of it.

No I mention it because you talked about the Cows poor performances with Thurston at the helm recently. Thus it is highly relevant to counter your point - irrelevant to the original topic though it is. You idiot.

 

[ANTiLAG]

Thurston is a better player than Johns now? :sarcasm:

Thurston is a great player but not in the same mould as a Johns or Lockyer.

Why not? You offfer no reasons but just merely assert.

 

[ANTiLAG]

Knights fans being biased, broncos fans being biased, antilag making a complete fool of himself..

What else is new..

How am I making a fool of myself saying Thurston is a better origin player than Johns? he has won 5 origin in a row in the halves.

Joey won '03 and '05. End of list. Thats 5 versus 2.

Joey did howver manage to lost the 95 series.

 

[typicalfan]

You say that Thurston doesn't have the rep players around him like Joey did (or Lockyer I assume as well). The Knights had representative players because between 97 and 2003 they were consistently among the top 4 sides only ever not so in Johns absence. Regular success means more chance of rep selection. The Cowboys on the other hand apart from 05 and 07 have been disgraceful and even worse this year, so why would their side gain rep jerseys?

Thurston needs to win a premiership and I doubt he will ever do so at the Cowboys. There are rumours up there that there is too much player control up there and he would be the leading hand in that being captain. I think Thurston is a very busy player who takes a lot of the responsibility on himself but he has yet to show he is a great leader by any stretch of the imagination and will likely never captain is state or country.

 

[typicalfan]

How am I making a fool of myself saying Thurston is a better origin player than Johns? he has won 5 origin in a row in the halves.

Joey won '03 and '05. End of list. Thats 5 versus 2.

Joey did howver manage to lost the 95 series.

??? You mean 5 v 5 plus one off the bench at hooker and still managing to star.

 

[ANTiLAG]

??? You mean 5 v 5 plus one off the bench at hooker and still managing to star.

No I mean 5 v 2 with the players in the halves.

NSW wins with Joey even in the team.

1996 Joey was hooker.
1997 Hooker.
2000 Bench
2003 and 05 were the only series he was the winning halfback.

Those are the only NSW winning series he played in. Where do you get this plus 1?

Lets look at his lost series

1995 The series that could not be lost - Joey lost it from halfback.
1998 Joey at halfback again - woops - NSW lost. Must have been those average players Daley and Fittler outside him.
1999 Joey is halfback - still cannot crack a win
2000 The shield is taken from Qld with noddy at the helm
2001 No Joey
2002 Joey halfback and... Still cannot crack a win.
2004 No Joey however NSW win
Thats four series losses and a lot of giving way to Kimmorley and Toovey as halfback.

Thurston's career....

2005 Loss - but more nobly than 1995 - Qld were not expected to win
2006 Win
2007 Win
2008 Win
2009 Win
2010 Win

Hmmm - never been dropped or moved to accomodate other players.

but, but, but, but, but, but, but game 2, 2005.:roll:

 

[ANTiLAG]

You say that Thurston doesn't have the rep players around him like Joey did (or Lockyer I assume as well). The Knights had representative players because between 97 and 2003 they were consistently among the top 4 sides only ever not so in Johns absence. Regular success means more chance of rep selection.

Many of the repl players I mentioned were rep players BEFORE this time period.

The Cowboys on the other hand apart from 05 and 07 have been disgraceful and even worse this year, so why would their side gain rep jerseys?

I thought it was more the players who gain rep honours rather than the team. Look at Tigers in 94 - 3 rep players - dead last.

Thurston needs to win a premiership

What has this got to do with origin?

and I doubt he will ever do so at the Cowboys.

Well many doubted Penrit and Tigers winning the years they did. Stranger things have happened.

There are rumours up there that there is too much player control up there and he would be the leading hand in that being captain. I think Thurston is a very busy player who takes a lot of the responsibility on himself but he has yet to show he is a great leader by any stretch of the imagination and will likely never captain is state or country.

Who is the better origin player? Not leader, not captain, not inspiration. Just player. I think Thurston has had the greater career at origin.

 

[Knights_Premiers]

No I mean 5 v 2 with the players in the halves.

NSW wins with Joey even in the team.

1996 Joey was hooker.
1997 Hooker.
2000 Bench
2003 and 05 were the only series he was the winning halfback.

Those are the only NSW winning series he played in. Where do you get this plus 1?

Lets look at his lost series

1995 The series that could not be lost - Joey lost it from halfback.
1998 Joey at halfback again - woops - NSW lost. Must have been those average players Daley and Fittler outside him.
1999 Joey is halfback - still cannot crack a win
2000 The shield is taken from Qld with noddy at the helm
2001 No Joey
2002 Joey halfback and... Still cannot crack a win.
2004 No Joey however NSW win
Thats four series losses and a lot of giving way to Kimmorley and Toovey as halfback.

Thurston's career....

2005 Loss - but more nobly than 1995 - Qld were not expected to win
2006 Win
2007 Win
2008 Win
2009 Win
2010 Win

Hmmm - never been dropped or moved to accomodate other players.

but, but, but, but, but, but, but game 2, 2005.:roll:

The problem with all this is that you are saying Thurston is a better Origin player but basing it on his TEAM's results. Thurston has only ever played in this amazing QLD side. We will never know how he'd go steering NSW around nowadays. Game 2 2005 is brought up often because it is the only piece of evidence we have to differentiate the two. Johns almost single handedly changed the fortunes of NSW in a game between two evenly matched sides. Thurston has not had a chance to do this at state level but he has consistently failed at club level where Johns also succeeded.

IMO there is no real answer as to who is the better Origin player. We'll never know how Thurston would have performed in the last five years in a more competitive Origin arena. I think people who say Johns is better are assuming that because Thurston can't produce at club level with a weaker side, he won't be able to do it at Origin level.

 

[ANTiLAG]

The problem with all this is that you are saying Thurston is a better Origin player but basing it on his TEAM's results. Thurston has only ever played in this amazing QLD side. We will never know how he'd go steering NSW around nowadays. Game 2 2005 is brought up often because it is the only piece of evidence we have to differentiate the two. Johns almost single handedly changed the fortunes of NSW in a game between two evenly matched sides. Thurston has not had a chance to do this at state level

In 2008 Thurston did this in my view as much as Joey did in 2005.

but he has consistently failed at club level where Johns also succeeded.

But Joey had amazing talent to work with. Thurston has not failed at club level else he would not have been awarded the Dally M's and second place last year. But if we ignore that award and base it in premierships - in Joeys 1.5 premierships HE HAD AMAZING TEAMS TO WORK WITH. Just using your own logic back on you. Just look at all the past, present or future internationals he had to work with.

IMO there is no real answer as to who is the better Origin player. We'll never know how Thurston would have performed in the last five years in a more competitive Origin arena.

Ever crossed your mind that Thurston is one of the very reasons for origin not being competitive now?

I think people who say Johns is better are assuming that because Thurston can't produce at club level with a weaker side, he won't be able to do it at Origin level.

Agreed. But once again you're basing this on TEAM results which you find problematic to do for Origin - thus you should be consistent in club.

 

[Noname36]

How the hell did this thread go from Johns/Lockyer to Johns/Thurston?

fmd, Thurston isn't fit to lace up Lockyer's boot yet, let alone John's.

 

[ANTiLAG]

How the hell did this thread go from Johns/Lockyer to Johns/Thurston?

That would be my doing. You do not think comparing halfbacks is sensible?

fmd, Thurston isn't fit to lace up Lockyer's boot yet, let alone John's.

Disagree. Thurston is the only one of those 3 players to have played 5 straight series winning sides. His influence in those series wins has been constantly sensational and at times essential.

 

[Knights_Premiers]

In 2008 Thurston did this in my view as much as Joey did in 2005.

A matter of opinion, I couldn't see many people agreeing with you though.

But Joey had amazing talent to work with. Thurston has not failed at club level else he would not have been awarded the Dally M's and second place last year. But if we ignore that award and base it in premierships - in Joeys 1.5 premierships HE HAD AMAZING TEAMS TO WORK WITH. Just using your own logic back on you. Just look at all the past, present or future internationals he had to work with.

What did they amount to without Johns though, again the Knights had many rep players in their team but what happened when Johns didn't play? I rest my case.

Ever crossed your mind that Thurston is one of the very reasons for origin not being competitive now?

He is one of the 17 reasons in each game, nothing more. He is a great player in the current crop, that's it.

But once again you're basing this on TEAM results which you find problematic to do for Origin - thus you should be consistent in club.

Again, this is because of how badly the Knights did without Johns. A team that still had Tahu, Buderus, Kennedy, Simpson and Gidley still could not get the near the same results. Just like Australia are unfazed without Thurston, the QLD side could slot Prince in at halfback and nothing would change.

 

[Knights_Premiers]

ANTiLAG, don't know why you're bothering with this. You're fighting an unwinnable battle comparing Thurston to Johns. Nobody agrees with you now but that could change come the end of Thurston's career.

 

[ANTiLAG]

What did they amount to without Johns though, again the Knights had many rep players in their team but what happened when Johns didn't play? I rest my case.

Why resting your case? They had their worst year when he was playing in 2005. In fact that was his best year for origin. So if Joey was in career best form in 2005 and the Knights had their worst season ever your point is made redundant. Knights played crap at times both without Joey and with him.

He is one of the 17 reasons in each game, nothing more. He is a great player in the current crop, that's it.

The same is true for Johns - the question is which player is greater.

Again, this is because of how badly the Knights did without Johns.

He played 16 games for the Knights in 2005 - they came last. He missed a few through origin commintments - played quite well apparently. I guess it shows an origin star cannot be held solely responsible for his club's woes - just like Thurston cannot.

A team that still had Tahu, Buderus, Kennedy, Simpson and Gidley still could not get the near the same results. Just like Australia are unfazed without Thurston, the QLD side could slot Prince in at halfback and nothing would change.

You cannot be serious?! That would not be true until last year. 06,07,08 your point is invalid. But the funny thing is - NSW did better with Kimmorley at halfback than with Joey between years 1995 - 2002. Maybe thats where you got the idea from.

If you want to say Joey has played the single most influential performance in a game via game 2 2005 - you have an argument subject to Kenny and Lewis performances. However, to say Joey is a great origin star when he was overlooked and moved around for Toovey and Kimmorley is ridiculous. He performed abysmally in 95 and years 98,99,02 show he really was not that great even when playing for the "stronger" team as opposed to Thurston. Yeah Joey was great in 05 - hardly rivals Thurstons achievements over his 6 years as a halfback.

Both Joey and Thurston have now had 6 seasons as origin halfbacks. The record is incredibly in Thurston's favour. Many times NSW had the "stronger" team and did not win with Joey at the helm. Thurston has a 5-1 record and Joey, what, a 2-2-2? Would have been 2-1-3 if Qld actually cared about winning the game knowing a draw was enough - Carlaw would have run round under the posts which to me demonstrated Qld knew a draw when holding the shield is effectively a win.

 

[typicalfan]

No I mean 5 v 2 with the players in the halves.

NSW wins with Joey even in the team.

1996 Joey was hooker.
1997 Hooker.
2000 Bench
2003 and 05 were the only series he was the winning halfback.

Those are the only NSW winning series he played in. Where do you get this plus 1?

Lets look at his lost series

1995 The series that could not be lost - Joey lost it from halfback.
1998 Joey at halfback again - woops - NSW lost. Must have been those average players Daley and Fittler outside him.
1999 Joey is halfback - still cannot crack a win
2000 The shield is taken from Qld with noddy at the helm
2001 No Joey
2002 Joey halfback and... Still cannot crack a win.
2004 No Joey however NSW win
Thats four series losses and a lot of giving way to Kimmorley and Toovey as halfback.

Thurston's career....

2005 Loss - but more nobly than 1995 - Qld were not expected to win
2006 Win
2007 Win
2008 Win
2009 Win
2010 Win

Hmmm - never been dropped or moved to accomodate other players.

but, but, but, but, but, but, but game 2, 2005.:roll:

You obviously don't watch because in 96/97 he played in the 9 jersey but Toovey was the dummy half while Johns played halfback. In 2000 Johns had a bigger influence on the result than Kimmorley even without the 7 jersey. Johnathan Thurston was moved to 5/8 for Scott Prince in 08 doesn't make him a lesser player because blind freddy can see Thurston is better than Prince. Anthony Minichiello got moved for Ben Hornby, doesn't make him a lesser origin player

Andrew Johns has had his injury problems as well he wasn't even fully fit for a lot of the ones he wasn't available for he wasn't dropped for any of those games.

And Daley and Fittler got moved around for each other throughout their career, you must think they are lesser players then hmmmm

 

[Springs]

2005 you say Knights had their worst year ever. This is actually one of the best reasons of Joeys superiority.
Johns was injured in the first few rounds, Knights lose thirteen straight. Johns comes back after Origin 2, they win 8 of their last 11 including beating leaders Parramatta and narrowly losing to second placed Dragons. They were one of the form teams of the comp during the latter stages, would this be the case if Johns had not returned?

Compared this year to Thurston's Cowboys, well they have only won four games the entire year, two while Thurston was not playing.
You can keep returning to the five straight series wins but I say if Prince or Cronk wears the 7 jersey during 2006-2010 no results change, or not by much. I do not take one dummy and go in 2008 as proof of a 'Joey 2005'.

 

[1 Eyed TEZZA]

Brett Kenny moved Wally Lewis out of the Australian five eight jersey I believe. Does that make Kenny better then Lewis?

 

[typicalfan]

Yes it is one of the regular but ridiculous arguments on here. Doesn't represent or show anything whatsoever. 2000 was the most one sided origin series ever and Joey managed to shine without even being in the starting 13 and easily outshone Brett Kimmorley. I still remember the second half of game 2 2000 with Joey coming on with the game in the balance and blowing QLD out of the water in a short period of time. He is the most dynamic player in origin except for Lewis imo.