Lockyer > Johns: no contest

[ANTiLAG]

You obviously don't watch because in 96/97 he played in the 9 jersey but Toovey was the dummy half while Johns played halfback. In 2000 Johns had a bigger influence on the result than Kimmorley even without the 7 jersey. Johnathan Thurston was moved to 5/8 for Scott Prince in 08 doesn't make him a lesser player because blind freddy can see Thurston is better than Prince. Anthony Minichiello got moved for Ben Hornby, doesn't make him a lesser origin player

Andrew Johns has had his injury problems as well he wasn't even fully fit for a lot of the ones he wasn't available for he wasn't dropped for any of those games.

And Daley and Fittler got moved around for each other throughout their career, you must think they are lesser players then hmmmm

Thurston was not moved out fo the halves for this switch.

Toovey play a lot of those minutes in that series as halfback. In fact game 3 95 - Toovey replaces your precious Johns altogether at halfback from the team. Having shown disasterous form in 95 losing a series that could not be lost - they probably thought Johns be better suited as a hooker the following two years.

 

[ANTiLAG]

2005 you say Knights had their worst year ever. This is actually one of the best reasons of Joeys superiority.
Johns was injured in the first few rounds, Knights lose thirteen straight. Johns comes back after Origin 2, they win 8 of their last 11 including beating leaders Parramatta and narrowly losing to second placed Dragons. They were one of the form teams of the comp during the latter stages, would this be the case if Johns had not returned?

Compared this year to Thurston's Cowboys, well they have only won four games the entire year, two while Thurston was not playing.
You can keep returning to the five straight series wins but I say if Prince or Cronk wears the 7 jersey during 2006-2010 no results change, or not by much. I do not take one dummy and go in 2008 as proof of a 'Joey 2005'.

Uhmm forgotten some facts there champ. Johns Magic would call youa liar for that. I won't but I will remind you that Johns was captain and led the knights to 6 straight defeats in his first 6 matches for them. The roll to 13 straight defeats was well in motion. He also played in round 13 - which they also lost. Yes they did well in the last few games for an 8-2 record with Johns. Howver - looking at the season as a whole:

That gives Joey playing in the Knights for ..... 8 losses and 8 wins.


Thats a 50% return rate. Minus the game stars play for origin - and whattdayaknow - its a disapointing club return for the club with the Mega dollar man and would have missed the 8 on either point difference or percentages anyway. Chalk that up as a bad year. Just like Knights fans accuse Thurston of. Its all irrelevant in my view to origin. But lets get the fact straight if you persist. So he led them well at the back end when NOTHING to play for. He led them into season destruction with 6 losses at the start of the season WHEN THEY STILL HAD HOPE.

Also - look at the Joeys spectacular results in 94 - 10th after being 4th in 92 and lets not forget 96 not making the finals when only one game away from the grand final the year before. Once again - I say look at the talent Joey had around him compared to Thurston then appreciate that Thurston has had some bad seasons with the cows but Joey has had bad seasons with Newcastle but with more and better talent around him. I do not see why club is relevant to origin. But man you Newcastle fans need to look at the facts.

 

[typicalfan]

Thurston was not moved out fo the halves for this switch.

Toovey play a lot of those minutes in that series as halfback. In fact game 3 95 - Toovey replaces your precious Johns altogether at halfback from the team. Having shown disasterous form in 95 losing a series that could not be lost - they probably thought Johns be better suited as a hooker the following two years.

Lets not kid ourselves pretending that 6 and 7 are similar positions. If anything moving Johns to hooker on occasion was a way of getting him even closer to the action, the same reason why Lockyer moved to 5/8.

Apart from half a yard of pace there isn't anything to Thurston's game that wasn't in Joeys. Andrew Johns though had a much more complete kicking, passing and organisational game and particularly strong in defense.

Thurston and his organising isn't that crash hot, he has Aaron Payne and Cameron Smith. Two organising hookers that could play 7 at a pinch.

 

[ANTiLAG]

Lets not kid ourselves pretending that 6 and 7 are similar positions. If anything moving Johns to hooker on occasion was a way of getting him even closer to the action, the same reason why Lockyer moved to 5/8.

How many halfbacks have played standoff as compared to halfbacks and hooker. The halves are much more similar role depending style than hooker and halfback can be on in any style. Left and right first receiver?! Heard of this concept. Additionally - how often does Locky play first receiver and THurston second. But more importantly - Thurston was moved to cover injury - Johns was flatly ousted from the halves. From the 13. From the team. None of which has happened to Thurston in his career.

Apart from half a yard of pace there isn't anything to Thurston's game that wasn't in Joeys. Andrew Johns though had a much more complete kicking, passing and organisational game and particularly strong in defense.

Thurston has extra speed - a great kicking game - a great passing game - less strong in defense than Joey.

Thurston and his organising isn't that crash hot, he has Aaron Payne and Cameron Smith. Two organising hookers that could play 7 at a pinch.

OMG - Johns had Bedurus and McCormack - as a Newcastle fan you're going to tell me Bedurus(Aus) and McCormack(NSW) are potatoes now? Are you going to suggest Paine is better than McCormack let alone Bedurus? Christ lets compare who they had outside them for completeness. Thurston had Myles, Rovelli, Justin Smith and Burns. SUchya taleneted crop of NRL stars there. Joey had Kurt Gidley, Mathew Johns, Sean Rudder and Jared Mullen. Well it would appear Joey had superior talent inside and outside. Oh wait - Joey made Mathew Johns(Aus), Kurt Gidley(Aus) and Mullen(NSW) look good did he?

Wanna compare backlines and packs from Newcastle grand final teams too? I mean - Thurston needs more premierships - Im sure if he had packs and backs of that quality he'd get them too!

Lets not kid ourselves pretending that 6 and 7 are similar positions. If anything moving Johns to hooker on occasion was a way of getting him even closer to the action, the same reason why Lockyer moved to 5/8.

How many halfbacks have played standoff as compared to halfbacks and hooker. The halves are much more similar role depending style than hooker and halfback can be on in any style. Left and right first receiver?! Heard of this concept. Additionally - how often does Locky play first receiver and THurston second. But more importantly - Thurston was moved to cover injury - Johns was flatly ousted from the halves. From the 13. From the team. None of which has happened to Thurston in his career.

Apart from half a yard of pace there isn't anything to Thurston's game that wasn't in Joeys. Andrew Johns though had a much more complete kicking, passing and organisational game and particularly strong in defense.

Thurston has extra speed - a great kicking game - a great passing game - less strong in defense than Joey.

Thurston and his organising isn't that crash hot, he has Aaron Payne and Cameron Smith. Two organising hookers that could play 7 at a pinch.

OMG - Johns had Bedurus and McCormack - as a Newcastle fan you're going to tell me Bedurus(Aus) and McCormack(NSW) are potatoes now? Are you going to suggest Paine is better than McCormack let alone Bedurus? Christ lets compare who they had outside them for completeness. Thurston had Myles, Rovelli, Justin Smith and Burns. SUchya taleneted crop of NRL stars there. Joey had Kurt Gidley, Mathew Johns, Sean Rudder and Jared Mullen. Well it would appear Joey had superior talent inside and outside. Oh wait - Joey made Mathew Johns(Aus) selected after Joey was dropped from origin 3 and before Joey was selected for Australia, Kurt Gidley after Joeys retirement(NSW + Aus) and Mullen(NSW) after Joeys retirement look good did he? Even though they hit rep straps without Joey's assistance at that time.

Wanna compare backlines and packs from Newcastle grand final teams too? I mean - Thurston needs 1.5 more premierships to rival Joey's origin achievments as NEwcastle fans suggest - Im sure if he had packs and backs of that quality he'd get them too!

I've heard all these Newcastle arguments and dismiss the lot of them. Joey was great. He was fantastic. He is not as good in origin as Stuart, Langer, Daley, Fittler, or Thurston were!

 

[Knights_Premiers]

Why resting your case? They had their worst year when he was playing in 2005. In fact that was his best year for origin. So if Joey was in career best form in 2005 and the Knights had their worst season ever your point is made redundant. Knights played crap at times both without Joey and with him.

In the first few rounds he was coming off a cruciate ligament injury from 2004 then broke his jaw against the Warriors. Naturally he wasn't going to be fully fit at the start of the season. Looking at when Joey was in full fitness at the second half of the season, we didn't play crap at all with him. Nothing demonstrates how Johns can influence a team better than the 2001 season. The Knights had O'Davis, Tahu, Gidley, MacDougall, Buderus, Simpson and Kennedy yet when Johns got injured or suspended, our performances dropped considerably. I still can't believe that you continue being the ONLY one trying to argue a point with everyone against you. Has it ever occurred to you that you're just wrong?

 

[Didgi]

In the first few rounds he was coming off a cruciate ligament injury from 2004 then broke his jaw against the Warriors. Naturally he wasn't going to be fully fit at the start of the season. Looking at when Joey was in full fitness at the second half of the season, we didn't play crap at all with him. Nothing demonstrates how Johns can influence a team better than the 2001 season. The Knights had O'Davis, Tahu, Gidley, MacDougall, Buderus, Simpson and Kennedy yet when Johns got injured or suspended, our performances dropped considerably. I still can't believe that you continue being the ONLY one trying to argue a point with everyone against you. Has it ever occurred to you that you're just wrong?

So because there are more Knights/NSW fans that Cowboys/QLD fans in this argument he should just shut up? Weight of numbers doesn't mean you're right.

2. Ty Williams
3. Ben Harris
4. Ash Graham
5. John Williams

All-star backline, isn't it.

 

[Ghoulies]

So because there are more Knights/NSW fans that Cowboys/QLD fans in this argument he should just shut up? Weight of numbers doesn't mean you're right.

2. Ty Williams
3. Ben Harris
4. Ash Graham
5. John Williams

All-star backline, isn't it.

Indeed. Personally I think Anti has put forward a very good argument, but because I find all Johns v *insert QLD player here* threads incredibly boring, I've avoided posting until now.

 

[perverse]

it's actually a pretty poor argument mostly consisting of fantasy, fiction and a bunch of origin series wins... but i think most people just don't care. it's not like anyones minds have ever been changed in one of these threads before.

it's actually quite an insult to compare Thurston to Johns in terms of footballing ability... not just to Johns' ability on the football field, but to all the other players in between those 2 as well. Lockyer - well i can understand the comparison. bringing Thurston into it is just taking the piss, for mine.

blokes like Alfie Langer, Freddy Fittler... Laurie Daley, Sticky Ricky... heaps of names in between Johns and Thurston for mine. i won't be responding to any challenges to this post either, there's no real point. we all see it a different way.

 

[typicalfan]

How many halfbacks have played standoff as compared to halfbacks and hooker. The halves are much more similar role depending style than hooker and halfback can be on in any style. Left and right first receiver?! Heard of this concept. Additionally - how often does Locky play first receiver and THurston second. But more importantly - Thurston was moved to cover injury - Johns was flatly ousted from the halves. From the 13. From the team. None of which has happened to Thurston in his career.



Thurston has extra speed - a great kicking game - a great passing game - less strong in defense than Joey.



OMG - Johns had Bedurus and McCormack - as a Newcastle fan you're going to tell me Bedurus(Aus) and McCormack(NSW) are potatoes now? Are you going to suggest Paine is better than McCormack let alone Bedurus? Christ lets compare who they had outside them for completeness. Thurston had Myles, Rovelli, Justin Smith and Burns. SUchya taleneted crop of NRL stars there. Joey had Kurt Gidley, Mathew Johns, Sean Rudder and Jared Mullen. Well it would appear Joey had superior talent inside and outside. Oh wait - Joey made Mathew Johns(Aus), Kurt Gidley(Aus) and Mullen(NSW) look good did he?

Wanna compare backlines and packs from Newcastle grand final teams too? I mean - Thurston needs more premierships - Im sure if he had packs and backs of that quality he'd get them too! How many halfbacks have played standoff as compared to halfbacks and hooker. The halves are much more similar role depending style than hooker and halfback can be on in any style. Left and right first receiver?! Heard of this concept. Additionally - how often does Locky play first receiver and THurston second. But more importantly - Thurston was moved to cover injury - Johns was flatly ousted from the halves. From the 13. From the team. None of which has happened to Thurston in his career.



Thurston has extra speed - a great kicking game - a great passing game - less strong in defense than Joey.



OMG - Johns had Bedurus and McCormack - as a Newcastle fan you're going to tell me Bedurus(Aus) and McCormack(NSW) are potatoes now? Are you going to suggest Paine is better than McCormack let alone Bedurus? Christ lets compare who they had outside them for completeness. Thurston had Myles, Rovelli, Justin Smith and Burns. SUchya taleneted crop of NRL stars there. Joey had Kurt Gidley, Mathew Johns, Sean Rudder and Jared Mullen. Well it would appear Joey had superior talent inside and outside. Oh wait - Joey made Mathew Johns(Aus) selected after Joey was dropped from origin 3 and before Joey was selected for Australia, Kurt Gidley after Joeys retirement(NSW + Aus) and Mullen(NSW) after Joeys retirement look good did he? Even though they hit rep straps without Joey's assistance at that time.

Wanna compare backlines and packs from Newcastle grand final teams too? I mean - Thurston needs 1.5 more premierships to rival Joey's origin achievments as NEwcastle fans suggest - Im sure if he had packs and backs of that quality he'd get them too!

I've heard all these Newcastle arguments and dismiss the lot of them. Joey was great. He was fantastic. He is not as good in origin as Stuart, Langer, Daley, Fittler, or Thurston were!

I am not a Knights fan but I can tell that Johns is a better halfback than Thurston. Plenty of halfbacks have been tried at standoff. Ricky Stuart was a total flop there, as was Craig Gower. 5/8 especially in the 90's was worlds apart from a genuine halfback, just because we can't develop a quality 6 or 7 anymore doesn't mean they are able to be swapped around. Laurie Daley, Brad Fittler, Brett Kenny etc would have made ordinary halfbacks.

Hooker? Robbie Farah, Cameron Smith, Ben Hunt, Cooper Cronk, Geoff Toovey, Craig Wing, John Morris, Nathan Fien, Aaron Payne, Jeff Robson, Ben Jones the list goes on and on all these players have played either position and could do so easily hell even Danny Buderus was a junior rep halfback. Hooker and halfback have been closely related positions for years now and more so today than ever. Because Thurston has Aaron Payne who is such a good organiser Thurston doesn't need too, Thurston is a natural 5/8 he is best with the ball on the edges running and hitting his players on the chest with short balls.

Ricky Stuart, Allan Langer and Peter Sterling all had champion backlines and were all superb players but it is Joey that rides on the coat tales of his all star team? right. A great halfback lifts the team around him, those 4 I mentioned did it but I don't think Thurston does it as well.

Buderus and McCormack are old school hookers more dangerous in defense and running the ball than organising. Buderus got better at it as his career went on but they aren't in the same mould as a Payne/Smith type hooker who have all the skills of a halfback plus the toughness of a hooker, different type of player.

 

[ANTiLAG]

I am not a Knights fan but I can tell that Johns is a better halfback than Thurston.

Are you going to give a reason or are you some authority like Allan Langer or Peter Sterling whose word I can take as gospel?

Plenty of halfbacks have been tried at standoff.

As have standoffs at halfback. What was Kevin Walters? What was Terry Lamb? Did Thurston start as a standoff or a halfback? Is Barrett remembered as a 6 or a 7? There are standoffs who are suited to playing first and second receiver, and those who are cannot. Depends on the suitability of their style. Thurston clearly is plays both positions similarly. Run into the grand final in '05 he was standoff - then played halfback on the day. We're talking Thurston here - he remained in the halves in 08. And he is often second receiver outside Lockyer. You make no relevant valid points here.

Thurston is a natural 5/8

See even you see how universal halfback and five eigth is to certain players. Thus Thurston never really had to change his game when Lockyer was injured. The fact Prince was injured meant he was the only half on the field.

Hooker? Robbie Farah, John Morris, Jeff Robson, Ben Jones Hooker and halfback have been closely related positions for years now and more so today than ever.

Are these the NSW halfback options now? If not then you make no point.

Ricky Stuart, Allan Langer and Peter Sterling

Thurston has a better origin record than all of them only rivalled by Stuart with an all star origin backline at his disposal. Langer's record without Lewis was woeful - really only contributing to a full series win in 98, however there was a one off game and a drawn series, too. Still not as good as Thurston's record. Club is not relevant. But if you wish to compare the stars Joey had I listed the 18 if not more internationals he played with compared with 7 Thurston has played with.

Buderus and McCormack are old school hookers more dangerous in defense and running the ball than organising. Buderus got better at it as his career went on but they aren't in the same mould as a Payne/Smith type hooker who have all the skills of a halfback plus the toughness of a hooker, different type of player.

Hold on - are you suggesting Paine > Bedurus? Is Justin Smith and Grant Rovelli > Matty Johns and Kurt Gidley too?

Hey Typical fan this is an interstate thread. Try and keep it origin related. If you cannot keep it origin related - Joey had at least 18 internationals at his disposal when he played. This included Matt Johns, Kurt Gidley, Jared Mullen, Robbie McCormack and Danny Bedurus to structure play. Thuston has had Payne.

Thurston has had international players like Carl Webb to work with while Joey had Ben Kennedy. He had one year with Paul Rauhihi - Joey had many with Paul Harrogan. Thurston had Matt Sing for a couple of years - Joey had Gidley, Tahu and Carney. Thurston has Bowen at the back - Joey had Robbie Ross and Robbie O'Davis.

Thurston has not had players at the club to rival what the Knights have had thus unfair to compare premierships and club results. You could compare Dally M results but now Joey not receiving them they seem to be worthless. Thus we can only go by origin performances which exclude salary caps. Hey look - Joey's origin record at halfback is 2 series wins and two draws and two losses. The draws are effectively losses as Qld retained the shield and that is the goal of origing - to get the shield.

So you compare a 2-4 (or 2-2-2_ record with all the might of NSW to a 5-1 for Thurston. And if you say but Queensland is so much stronger than NSW (since 2009) - look at the 95 series WHICH JOEY LOST.

Got it? Good.

 

[AuDragon]

That would be my doing. You do not think comparing halfbacks is sensible?

Feel free to open a new thread comparing half backs. This one is about Lockyer superiority to Johns, which in itself is a source of annoyment for you, hence the continuous highjacking.:sarcasm:

Having said that, Lockyer will become an Immortal, Johns will not and Thurston is a good chance if he manages to achieve more at the cows...

 

[ANTiLAG]

it's actually a pretty poor argument mostly consisting of fantasy, fiction and a bunch of origin series wins.

Where is the fantasy? Where is the fiction? Are origin series wins not relevant anymore? Who are you? Laurie Daley? The only fiction here is that Joey has a great origin record. Yeah he had a good game game 2, 2005.

Check out these results:

1995 The series that could not be lost - Joey lost it from halfback. Dropped from Game 3 team. Replaced by Toovey.
1998 Joey at halfback again - woops - NSW lost. Must have been those average players Daley and Fittler outside him.
1999 Joey is halfback - still cannot crack a win
2000 NSW win with KIMMORLEY
2001 No Joey - may have been selected when Kimmorley injured - but was injured himself
2002 Joey halfback and... Still cannot crack a win.
2004 NO JOEY yet NSW win
Thats four series losses and a lot of giving way to Kimmorley and Toovey as halfback.

it's actually quite an insult to compare Thurston to Johns in terms of footballing ability...

Only to Thurston. I mean Thurston's never been benched or dropped from origin.

not just to Johns' but to all the other players in between those 2 as well. Lockyer - well i can understand the comparison. bringing Thurston into it is just taking the piss, for mine.

Theres a contradiction. Its permissable to compare Locky and Johns but not Thurston and Johns because of other player's influence? You ridiculously inconsistent.

Joey had an average origin career at best. 2 series wins from 6 attempts at halfback. He is far below Langer, Stuart and Thurston for the best origin halfback. Unless we live in the "White trash from Cessnock" fantasy world.

 

[ANTiLAG]

Feel free to open a new thread comparing half backs. This one is about Lockyer superiority to Johns, which in itself is a source of annoyment for you, hence the continuous highjacking.

Thanks for your offer - I respectfully decline - I am quite happy to do Thurston > Lockyer here thanks all the same.

 

[AuDragon]

Thanks for your offer - I respectfully decline - I am quite happy to do Thurston > Lockyer here thanks all the same.

Then you won't mind people throwing the club stats into the discussion, since it is as relevant to this thread as Thurston is... :-k

 

[hellteam]

Then you won't mind people throwing the club stats into the discussion, since it is as relevant to this thread as Thurston is... :-k

What the heck do premierships have to do with Origin? I thought only Newcastle fans were this slow. Seems Broncos fans are too.

Nope not allowed

 

[AuDragon]

Nope not allowed

Either that, or anti-Lockyer fans with a hint of Thurston love are slow... 8-[

 

[Didgi]

From 11 pages of posts we have found that:

Thurston has more series wins, and perhaps a greater influence in Origin than Johns
Johns had perhaps more influence on his club side than Thurston, and more premierships
then we say:
Thurston has better Origin players around him than Johns had (this is debateable imo, but I'll go with it)
Johns had better club players around him than Thurston has
so I conclude:
This argument is going around in circles. For every origin argument there is a club argument, and vice-versa.

Who knows, maybe the current QLD side with a Johns style halfback wouldn't be successful (I laugh at that) and maybe the Cowboys with Johns would be successful (I laugh at that too, unfortunately).

 

[ANTiLAG]

Either that, or anti-Lockyer fans with a hint of Thurston love are slow... 8-[

Or the logical answer which is Thurston > Johns in origin is more relevant within an interstate thread titled "Lockyer > Johns" than club stats ever will be in determining who the superior origin player is.

Geesh you anti-Thurstons with a hint of Lockyer love aint the sharpest tools in the shed.

 

[Didgi]

Perhaps I should have selected hide signature :sarcasm:

 

[ANTiLAG]

Thurston has more series wins, and perhaps a greater influence in Origin than Johns

True - 5 series wins out 6 attempts is better than 2 series wins out of 6 attempts.

Johns had perhaps more influence on his club side than Thurston, and more premierships
then we say:
Thurston has better Origin players around him than Johns had (this is debateable imo, but I'll go with it)

Nah - 1995 Joey could not lose that series and did. Joey was surrounded by the greater cattle in 95, 98, 99, and 02. He just could not guide them to victory despite having as good as if not better than Qld origin players around him.

Johns had better club players around him than Thurston has

True.

This argument is going around in circles. For every origin argument there is a club argument, and vice-versa.

Nah apparently you can be wrong with a logically sound with accurate facts inductive argument as pointed out by Newcastle fans. :lol: