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Lockyer > Johns: no contest

RABK

Referee
Messages
20,694
He also played in a time where Danial Wagon was the Queensland five eight...... says alot dont you think?

Daniel Wagon played 3 games for QLD during a purple patch of form in a series Johns played no part in.


Your point? He wasn't the only player in Origin history to be selected based on a purple patch.
 

Big Pete

Referee
Messages
29,039
You are normally a good poster Pete, but you lost the plot on the 'torn apart QLD team' line.

In reference to 95-97.

The other point I was making was that Queensland fielded some fairly average sides in 2002-2003 and 2005 but not for one second would I use that argument to discredit Johns' record at Origin. He deserves them, like Lockyer does.
 

isaiah

Bench
Messages
4,772
I never got to see the King in his prime, but I havent seen many players able to control a game quite like Johns. In every aspect of it. Wally Lewis was complete. Had it all and a bag of tricks. Johns was the same IMO.

Joey could absorb a game plan like no other, coaches often say that was his best aspect.

When talking Immortals, I think that title should go to players that had a forever lasting impact on the competition. Like Churchills taking on the line through defenders, Raper, Provan and the rest of that Dragons foward pack, they had to introduce a 4 tackle rule to stop their dominance, the way Coote would run lines through the defence, Fultons near perfect timing when chiming into attack , of course Wally Lewis and the impact he had on the Origin arena, the security he gave his team mates, and then theres Joey, his kicking game was revolutionary. The control he had on the ball was magnificent, and let alone his vision, passing skill etc etc, his kicking game made him a fullbacks worst nightmare. Another thing on Joey, he was able to bring the best out of his team mates, get them the ball in situations where their abilities would be best served. I point to Matt Gidley being a prime example there.

Lockyer to me isnt the complete player in my eyes. You could put Johns in a defence line and be sure that he wont be a liability, but Lockyer still has that about him, defence wise id much refer Johns. In attack Lockyer was and is still the greatest opportunist in the game. When ever there has been a sniff of blood, Lockyer was right there to capitolise. But he doesnt have that aura that the other immortals had. If Lockyer is better then Johns, then so is Fittler, Daley, Stuart, Langer, Lewis and Sterlo.

Jarryd Haynes form late last year was something special, but the best players keep reinventing themselves and continue to dominate.

johns was never in as good as wally and should now never be mentioned in the immortal conversation
 

ANTiLAG

First Grade
Messages
8,014
To all the Joey fans crying blue that he is better than lockyer on the origin pitch. I agree. However, you have a new problem. Your darling Joey is so far behind Thurston it is not funny.

Now the Joey fans cry 2005. This was the year Thurston - in his first season as a starting hlafback for a club was selected. Since then Thurston has dominated origin more cionstently than Joey did. The next common plea from Joey fans - is Joey's 1.5 premiership wins. Well - the answer to that - Thurston has managed to keep Prince and Cronk out who between know how to win a grand a final or three. Joey as good as he was did have to give way a few times to Kimmorley and Toovey. You wanna talk stats, winning records, or individual performances that won games - look at 2008 replays of games 2 and 3. Thurston is all over Joey at origin. Thurston is wihout doubt the single best halfback at origin level I have seen - and I've seen them all. Am I one eyed Qld fan? Well I am Qld fan who thinks Joey was a better player than Lockyer - so I do not think I am one eyed.

Thurston is so good at origin it makes me wonder what name Joey calls him.
 
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RABK

Referee
Messages
20,694
Haha yes, Paul Green would also look like a pretty damn good halfback in the mix of the current climate.

Thurston achievements are ahead of Johns or Langer in Origin but that is a product of the current Origin environment rather than a clear cut, black and white - Thurston > Johns at Origin.
 

Dazzat

First Grade
Messages
5,919
I think I've introduced a new concept that virtually no-one understands in this whole Lockyer v Johns debate.

I'm not talking about skills ... I'm talking TOTAL ACCUMULATED INFLUENCE throughout one's Origin career.

In other words, which player has had the most influence in the most games over time.

In my opinion Lockyer is pressing Lewis now for the No. 1 spot. Johns probably sits at No. 7 or 8 in my opinion.
 

Apey

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
27,437
I think I've introduced a new concept that virtually no-one understands in this whole Lockyer v Johns debate.

I'm not talking about skills ... I'm talking TOTAL ACCUMULATED INFLUENCE throughout one's Origin career.

In other words, which player has had the most influence in the most games over time.

In my opinion Lockyer is pressing Lewis now for the No. 1 spot. Johns probably sits at No. 7 or 8 in my opinion.

:lol: :lol:

Wow.
 

t-ba

Post Whore
Messages
57,296
In terms of Origin, Lockyer.

I'd say by the time Thurston's done he'll be regarded the best Origin has ever seen however. Shame he can't seem to guide a team to a premiership however. But then again, neither did the King in the nations premier competition.


Joey is still the best I've ever seen play this game. His body wasn't really made for the modern game however, and it's a shame he spent so much time on the sidelines.
 

Dazzat

First Grade
Messages
5,919
Joey is still the best I've ever seen play this game. His body wasn't really made for the modern game however, and it's a shame he spent so much time on the sidelines.

... and I thought it's Lockyer who is not the 'strong physical presence' on the field ... Johns was a lot heavier set than Johns ... and yet Johns spent more time on the sidelines ... interesting.
 

t-ba

Post Whore
Messages
57,296
... and I thought it's Lockyer who is not the 'strong physical presence' on the field ... Johns was a lot heavier set than Johns ... and yet Johns spent more time on the sidelines ... interesting.


Lockyer's an athlete, Johns never really was. Could have something to do with the fact Johns engaged a bit more readily in the rough stuff.
 

RABK

Referee
Messages
20,694
I think I've introduced a new concept that virtually no-one understands in this whole Lockyer v Johns debate.

I'm not talking about skills ... I'm talking TOTAL ACCUMULATED INFLUENCE throughout one's Origin career.

In other words, which player has had the most influence in the most games over time.

In my opinion Lockyer is pressing Lewis now for the No. 1 spot. Johns probably sits at No. 7 or 8 in my opinion.

You've introduced nothing. As Johns Magic said, it's nothing but straw grasping by people with a Johns chip on their shoulder or an inferiority complex.

Your logic is flawed and if we applied it to many comparisons you are also suggesting...


Rod Wishart > Eric Grothe Snr
Neville Costigan > Mark Geyer
Adrian Lam > Greg Alexander

You are an idiot. So basically you are saying because of certain fate in regards to injury, competition of their position and selection some players have had a more distinguished Origin career than some much better players than themselves?

Well woopde f**king do Einstein!


Your thread title 'Lockyer > Johns: No Contest' based on nothing but how longetivity is in Lockyers favour just proves that Johns been rated the most influential player of all time with selection in the team of the century really eats at you QLD's.

Lockyer injuries and personality > Johns - that's all you've got and all you'll ever have regardless of Lockyer plays on into his 40's or not.
 
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ANTiLAG

First Grade
Messages
8,014
You've introduced nothing. As Johns Magic said, it's nothing but straw grasping by people with a Johns chip on their shoulder or an inferiority complex.

You are an idiot. So basically you are saying because of certain fate in regards to injury, competition of their position and selection some players have had a more distinguished Origin career than some much better players than themselves?

Thurston > Johns
 

perverse

Referee
Messages
26,274
Thurston > Johns
he has to win a couple of premierships as a halfback before he's even in the same solar system. he can barely get the cowboys to the finals year to year. something neither Lockyer or Johns ever had any problems with.
 

ANTiLAG

First Grade
Messages
8,014
he has to win a couple of premierships as a halfback before he's even in the same solar system. he can barely get the cowboys to the finals year to year. something neither Lockyer or Johns ever had any problems with.

Haha!

Joey is not good enough to stand in Thurston's shadow....

Double post - but read the one below
 
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ANTiLAG

First Grade
Messages
8,014
he has to win a couple of premierships as a halfback before he's even in the same solar system. he can barely get the cowboys to the finals year to year. something neither Lockyer or Johns ever had any problems with.

Haha!

Your precious Joey is a state of origin fraud.

Thurston has guided Qld to 5 series wins at halfback. FIVE.

How many has joey done? 2005? 2005 was the very first year Thurston was even a club halfback!

Oh yeah - 2003 against Berrigan and one leg Ikin in Qld halves.

HAH!

Joey has to come out of retirement and take Thurston on to be in the same solar system as him.

I mean Joey did real well at halfback in the 2 years affected by superleague. What he do in 95 and 97 as a halfback? Lose 4 and won one! Awesome effort against a VERY WEAK Qld team with no Broncos. Oh year - superstar performer in Origin was Joey.

Thurston has Joey's number in big games - even if Joey has won 0.5 more premierships than Thurston. If the Cowboys had the talent that the NeWCastle teams had - oh wait -

Harrogan,
Muir,
mat Johns,
Hughes,
Butterfield,
Peden
Glanville,
McDougall
Tahu
M Gidley
Perry
Bederus
Simpson
Kennedy
and O'Davis offered nothing in those games eh?

Thurston is so far ahead of Joey at Origin the mind boggles. Oh but but but Joey won 1.5 premierships single handledly. Pffft.
 

Big Pete

Referee
Messages
29,039
I think I've introduced a new concept that virtually no-one understands in this whole Lockyer v Johns debate.

I'm not talking about skills ... I'm talking TOTAL ACCUMULATED INFLUENCE throughout one's Origin career.

In other words, which player has had the most influence in the most games over time.

In my opinion Lockyer is pressing Lewis now for the No. 1 spot. Johns probably sits at No. 7 or 8 in my opinion.

Lockyer has had a fantastic Origin career and will go down as one of the all-time greats.

What more needs to be said Daz?
 

Dazzat

First Grade
Messages
5,919
So basically you are saying because of certain fate in regards to injury, competition of their position and selection some players have had a more distinguished Origin career than some much better players than themselves?

Stickability ... an underestimated quality, even though it takes more guts to persevere than attaining one night of glory.

Excellence in your field spread over a long period of time ... in today's transient world, a rare quality.

Dependability ... delivering the goods year after year after year ... in professional sport, where money is the motivator for many, a rare personal quality ... a pearl.

Leadership without the ego ... a rare commodity indeed. Being prepared to change your own game to suit the team's needs at a given time.

While technical skill is lauded, the importance of these qualities are almost always underestimated. But ask any coach with a little experience what they think of these qualities.

That's what I'm talking about with total accumulated influence.
 

Johns Magic

Referee
Messages
21,654
Stickability ... an underestimated quality, even though it takes more guts to persevere than attaining one night of glory.

Excellence in your field spread over a long period of time ... in today's transient world, a rare quality.

Dependability ... delivering the goods year after year after year ... in professional sport, where money is the motivator for many, a rare personal quality ... a pearl.

Leadership without the ego ... a rare commodity indeed. Being prepared to change your own game to suit the team's needs at a given time.

While technical skill is lauded, the importance of these qualities are almost always underestimated. But ask any coach with a little experience what they think of these qualities.

That's what I'm talking about with total accumulated influence.

Ok cool.

Doesn't make him the better player, but if it settles the chip on your shoulder then I'm glad.

But you sound like a Raiders fan comparing Alan Tongue to Sonny-Bill Williams.
 

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