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New Zealand 2 will deal a massive blow to NZ rugby

Matua

First Grade
Messages
5,247
Yeah, I told you the math... it's 12 million dollars divided by 30 players.
Outside of All blacks contracts , that'll be more than any current players in Super Rugby can make without leaving the country ( significantly more).

Currently we can assume Rugby Union has the most talented players playing in NZ ( they have the whole All blacks squad playing in NZ) which is a bigger squad than the Warriors and probably pay more in total right?

But... a second New Zealand team in the NRL actually sees Rugby league possessing the most Rugby talent ( top line talent) in NZ ...let that sink in...
Rugby League will have the Lions share of top Rugby talent playing in NZ ..
A MASSIVE BLOW.
Going by this years Warriors squad it's to be divided by 21 players as 9 of the players are not eligible for NZ. That also needs to factor in that the Aussie "stars" will be eating up a big chunk of the cap, the NZ stars will eat up a big chunk of the cap, and Aussie journeymen will have been paid overs to get them to NZ. That would leave a much smaller portion for the rest of the squad.

When it comes to Super squads the high earning players don't eat up as much of the cap because the AB/NZR payments aren't included in a Super cap.

I don't think the earning potential gap is as big as you make out. Plus, even if we have two teams and say Chch only has 5 non NZ eligible that's still only 45 players on those top contracts. The Super squads have roughly 200 spots and however many Moana Pasifika players are NZ eligible.
 

Gobsmacked

Bench
Messages
3,228
Going by this years Warriors squad it's to be divided by 21 players as 9 of the players are not eligible for NZ. That also needs to factor in that the Aussie "stars" will be eating up a big chunk of the cap, the NZ stars will eat up a big chunk of the cap, and Aussie journeymen will have been paid overs to get them to NZ. That would leave a much smaller portion for the rest of the squad.

When it comes to Super squads the high earning players don't eat up as much of the cap because the AB/NZR payments aren't included in a Super cap.

I don't think the earning potential gap is as big as you make out. Plus, even if we have two teams and say Chch only has 5 non NZ eligible that's still only 45 players on those top contracts. The Super squads have roughly 200 spots and however many Moana Pasifika players are NZ eligible.
And Aussie clubs pay overs for Kiwi journeymen..
My point isn't about Kiwi or non Kiwi anyway.

The point is the NRL will have more top line talent performing on a week to week in NZ then Rugby Union.
Rugby League in NZ = 24 million dollars of talent dividend among 60 players, an average of 400k.

Correct me if I'm wrong but that would be more than the top 60 spots in Union?
 

Matiunz

Juniors
Messages
919
And Aussie clubs pay overs for Kiwi journeymen
Not sure I can think of too many examples of this?
Warriors is one of the toughest recruitment sells in the NRL for a number of reasons, international travel, NZ perception etc.

We tend to have to pay Australian players overs to get them to come and frustratingly we also tend to buy NZ players back at an inflated rate once they’ve developed at another club as well as paying NZ star players a ‘retirement package’ in the twilight of their careers. Same problems will arise for NZ2.
Where we do benefit is with the local talent that don’t want to leave home that tend to be on unders in many cases although on the flip side the better ones have to be paid enough to hold off rival club interest. The local guys are what we need to grow obviously but the development level isn’t there yet to rely on those players at a higher number just yet
 

Wb1234

Immortal
Messages
35,228
I read somewhere the warriors struggle to spend the full salary cap (given the currency conversion especially)

The fact that 30 percent of nrl players are kiwis shows how much good talent there is

The fact the warriors aren’t getting them is a reflection of the warriors organisation as opposed to the potential of league in nz

Said before a Christchurch nrl team could be like super rugby and dominate over the Auckland side

On another point how does Ireland manage to pay higher wages than nz ? Union isn’t even the major football code there either

 

AlwaysGreen

Post Whore
Messages
51,067
Not this 30% thing again. So your expectation is that lads born and bred in Australia will move to New Zealand to play league just because their parents are kiwis?
 

Matiunz

Juniors
Messages
919
On another point how does Ireland manage to pay higher wages than nz ? Union isn’t even the major football code there either
Ireland have the advantage of its proximity to UK and Europe and tapping into their markets whereas NZ has on really Australia.

Also worth noting outside of Football Rugby is the only other professional sport, Gaelic is semi pro and hurling is amateur.
Same can be said for NZ, technically Soccer is more popular in NZ it’s just we aren’t particularly good at it and it doesn’t get that much exposure locally
 

Matua

First Grade
Messages
5,247
And Aussie clubs pay overs for Kiwi journeymen..
My point isn't about Kiwi or non Kiwi anyway.

The point is the NRL will have more top line talent performing on a week to week in NZ then Rugby Union.
Rugby League in NZ = 24 million dollars of talent dividend among 60 players, an average of 400k.

Correct me if I'm wrong but that would be more than the top 60 spots in Union?
It's like you completely ignored the points in my post on purpose. ;)

That 60 does not get divided between all NZers as long as there are Aussie players in the teams. I gave a conservative number of Aussies for NZ2 which puts the number at 45. The top 45 NZ rugby players would likely all be on ;over 400K. And as I pointed out there will be a lot of league players well over that average in the cap which will reduce the amount for other players.

The whole point of this thread is about kiwis, claiming your point isn't about kiwi or not kiwi makes no sense.

And there's no way Oz clubs pay overs for NZ journeymen, they might for the odd star, but definitely not journeymen.
 

SirPies&Beers

Juniors
Messages
754
is nz2 a sure thing? v'landys has obviously been in talks with png/aus govs for png and wa gov for west aussie bears.

theres a clear trend here. makes you wonder who would be easier to negotiate with right now. qrl and qld gov for a 4th seqld team or a private nz consortium.

pvl could easily ask qld gov that after the 2032 olympics he would like x olympic purpose built facility to be turned into a head office or coe for brisbane 3/ipswich which honestly wouldn't be hard to do and can end up being a cost saving for everyone.

bit harder to do if only negotiating with a private organisation.
 

Wb1234

Immortal
Messages
35,228
Nz has the stadiums already

It’s not a bad idea using another Brisbane team as a carrot to get Suncorp rebuilt vs a new Gabba

There doesn’t seem to be any chat though about the arl being involved in the stadium debate in qld which is a shame

If I were betting I would say nz are 85 percent chance to get it and maybe sooner if Perth falls over
 

SirPies&Beers

Juniors
Messages
754
Nz has the stadiums already

It’s not a bad idea using another Brisbane team as a carrot to get Suncorp rebuilt vs a new Gabba

There doesn’t seem to be any chat though about the arl being involved in the stadium debate in qld which is a shame

If I were betting I would say nz are 85 percent chance to get it and maybe sooner if Perth falls over
why would perth fall over when as some expansionista experta, yourself included, claim negotiations are deep rooted? seems to me like west aussies and nrl are at the same stage right now as what feds and nrl were in august/september tbh

also why couldn't there be 2 games spread out between thurs to sun at suncorp? accord/stadium australia used to have multiple games played on it a week for years no issue. brissie 3 the ippy edition could use it until such time that a boutique 22k stadia is built in ippy regions. it wouldn't need to be an instant thing tbh. they could also just call themselves south queensland whatever and share games between cbus goldie and suncorp. maybe a 4/8 split or something.

all they really need is facilities for training and set up and with a few of these facilities being built for olympics anyways why not piggyback off them and take ownership after olympics. guaranteed its a better idea then leaving purpose built facilities with no tenants for months or years post olympics. just spit balling here
 

Wb1234

Immortal
Messages
35,228
I didn’t say Perth falling over was likely lol

They can play multiple games at Suncorp dunno why you raised that point

I just don’t see Brisbane 3 being on the radar anytime soon

Why would they add Ipswich so soon after the dolphins when league is booming in nz and they have a new stadium ready to go

Nz2 offers more than Brisbane 3 does imo (I’d say Brisbane 3 offers more than Perth though)
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
70,318
is nz2 a sure thing? v'landys has obviously been in talks with png/aus govs for png and wa gov for west aussie bears.

theres a clear trend here. makes you wonder who would be easier to negotiate with right now. qrl and qld gov for a 4th seqld team or a private nz consortium.

pvl could easily ask qld gov that after the 2032 olympics he would like x olympic purpose built facility to be turned into a head office or coe for brisbane 3/ipswich which honestly wouldn't be hard to do and can end up being a cost saving for everyone.

bit harder to do if only negotiating with a private organisation.
I'd say its doubtful given what they've demanded from PNG and WA. Depends how deep pockets any of the bids really have and if NRL has a genuine NZ development strategic goal, which they've showed little signs of to date.

I think they missed the boat with Brisabne3, should have demanded a new stadium in Ipswich and redevelopment of redcliffe as part of the Olympics in return for a license. That ship has now sailed
 

Pippen94

First Grade
Messages
7,509
I'd say its doubtful given what they've demanded from PNG and WA. Depends how deep pockets any of the bids really have and if NRL has a genuine NZ development strategic goal, which they've showed little signs of to date.

I think they missed the boat with Brisabne3, should have demanded a new stadium in Ipswich and redevelopment of redcliffe as part of the Olympics in return for a license. That ship has now sailed

Brisbane teams will all play at Suncorp. Transport links will be improved.
 

Matiunz

Juniors
Messages
919
is nz2 a sure thing? v'landys has obviously been in talks with png/aus govs for png and wa gov for west aussie bears.

theres a clear trend here. makes you wonder who would be easier to negotiate with right now. qrl and qld gov for a 4th seqld team or a private nz consortium.

pvl could easily ask qld gov that after the 2032 olympics he would like x olympic purpose built facility to be turned into a head office or coe for brisbane 3/ipswich which honestly wouldn't be hard to do and can end up being a cost saving for everyone.

bit harder to do if only negotiating with a private organisation.
It does seem NZ2 isn’t getting much more than lip service, also seems like they’re holding out to see what they can get out of the bid like they have with PNG and WA.
Also seems like NRL is weighing up whether the Warriors are enough to keep NZ engaged rather than a growth mindset
 

Wb1234

Immortal
Messages
35,228
It does seem NZ2 isn’t getting much more than lip service, also seems like they’re holding out to see what they can get out of the bid like they have with PNG and WA.
Also seems like NRL is weighing up whether the Warriors are enough to keep NZ engaged rather than a growth mindset
Andrew abdo met the orcas bid again last week
 

Gobsmacked

Bench
Messages
3,228
It's like you completely ignored the points in my post on purpose. ;)

That 60 does not get divided between all NZers as long as there are Aussie players in the teams. I gave a conservative number of Aussies for NZ2 which puts the number at 45. The top 45 NZ rugby players would likely all be on ;over 400K. And as I pointed out there will be a lot of league players well over that average in the cap which will reduce the amount for other players.

The whole point of this thread is about kiwis, claiming your point isn't about kiwi or not kiwi makes no sense.

And there's no way Oz clubs pay overs for NZ journeymen, they might for the odd star, but definitely not journeymen.
And you've completely missed the point.
There will be more talented people playing Rugby league in New Zealand than Union.
Fans want to watch the most talented players, it doesn't matter where they're from ( obviously all you care about lol)
The big show with all the stars each week will be NRL.
I'm sure you won't get it, the pompous pricks in Union don't get it but that's exactly why the NRL are in the position they're in .
Please don't change.
 
Messages
15,281
From the link posted above.


Southern Orcas look to untapped international regions to bolster their chances of NRL entry
In a fresh bid to secure entry into the NRL, an ambitious Christchurch expansion franchise will go where no club has been in 116 years of rugby league – Hawaii and the Caribbean.

An NRL bid consortium is ready to break into two international player markets where no rugby league club has gone in the game’s 116-year history – Hawaii and the Caribbean.
In an unprecedented move, the Christchurch-based Southern Orcas will start a development program early next year which will span across Fiji, Samoa, Cook Islands, Solomon Island, Vanuatu, French Polynesia and expand to Hawaii and the Caribbean.
“The number of players that would be suited to our game would be phenomenal,” said Orcas’ managing director, Andrew Chalmers.
“The Caribbean have absolutely fantastic athletes and Hawaii is a huge catchment area of athletes that would be suited to our sport – they just haven’t been exposed to it. It would help with the internationalisation of rugby league.”

The initiative will form part of the club’s expanded sports education pathways and be included in the Orcas’ bid for NRL inclusion.
“The Hawaiian breeding ground is untapped when it comes to rugby league – the athletes there are big and powerful and would be ideal for the NRL. This could be a historic move by the Orcas,” said former Australian NFL player Colin Scotts, who won a scholarship to play American football at the University of Hawaii during the early 1980s.
The Orcas remain a key candidate for inclusion in the NRL’s proposed 20-team competition and targeting players from Hawaii and the Caribbean could prove enormously productive, according to Chalmers.
“The Caribbean has absolutely fantastic athletes. When you think about the opportunities in and around the Caribbean, they are all running ten seconds (over 100 metres), and they’re the bad ones,” Chalmers said. “It’s about teaching them to play our sport.
“When you think of Caribbean athletes, you think about sprinting, NFL and basketball but this would be a great opportunity to integrate their DNA into our sport.
“It’s not just the Caribbean but through the Pacific Islands and then extend to Hawaii and the Caribbean. The success of Hawaiian athletes is phenomenal but they haven’t been exposed to rugby league.

“This is a great opportunity to expose these young men and women to the opportunities that exist in a great sport such as rugby league. It would create a new benchmark in terms of rugby league.”
“We would use a sports education program to develop those athletes through the Orcas sports academy. You’d be identifying all those key athletes at aged 14 and 15 into a focused sports education program, all built around rugby league.
“Our thinking is to offer a sports education model to attract them to rugby league. We need to develop the pathways domestically and internationally.”
Elite players would be developed and identified at ages 14 and 15 before being relocated to a high performance program in New Zealand aged 16.

The Orcas plan to launch their pathway and development academy in February next year.
“The target ages would be 14 or 15 – that’s your key development age,” Chalmers said.
“We would develop them in their countries and islands – they would need their families and support – and then the next level of development would be relocation to New Zealand and into a high performance system.
“That’s when you can start to build all the armoury needed for playing a collision sport like rugby league.
“We want to broaden the pathways. There are a number of phenomenal athletes that haven’t been able to access pathways to reach their potential in rugby league. We will put pathways into the islands.”
The Orcas hope to be the NRL’s 20th side behind the Western Bears and PNG, who will formally be announced on Thursday
 

Matt_CBY

Juniors
Messages
1,964
From the link posted above.


Southern Orcas look to untapped international regions to bolster their chances of NRL entry
In a fresh bid to secure entry into the NRL, an ambitious Christchurch expansion franchise will go where no club has been in 116 years of rugby league – Hawaii and the Caribbean.

An NRL bid consortium is ready to break into two international player markets where no rugby league club has gone in the game’s 116-year history – Hawaii and the Caribbean.
In an unprecedented move, the Christchurch-based Southern Orcas will start a development program early next year which will span across Fiji, Samoa, Cook Islands, Solomon Island, Vanuatu, French Polynesia and expand to Hawaii and the Caribbean.
“The number of players that would be suited to our game would be phenomenal,” said Orcas’ managing director, Andrew Chalmers.
“The Caribbean have absolutely fantastic athletes and Hawaii is a huge catchment area of athletes that would be suited to our sport – they just haven’t been exposed to it. It would help with the internationalisation of rugby league.”

The initiative will form part of the club’s expanded sports education pathways and be included in the Orcas’ bid for NRL inclusion.
“The Hawaiian breeding ground is untapped when it comes to rugby league – the athletes there are big and powerful and would be ideal for the NRL. This could be a historic move by the Orcas,” said former Australian NFL player Colin Scotts, who won a scholarship to play American football at the University of Hawaii during the early 1980s.
The Orcas remain a key candidate for inclusion in the NRL’s proposed 20-team competition and targeting players from Hawaii and the Caribbean could prove enormously productive, according to Chalmers.
“The Caribbean has absolutely fantastic athletes. When you think about the opportunities in and around the Caribbean, they are all running ten seconds (over 100 metres), and they’re the bad ones,” Chalmers said. “It’s about teaching them to play our sport.
“When you think of Caribbean athletes, you think about sprinting, NFL and basketball but this would be a great opportunity to integrate their DNA into our sport.
“It’s not just the Caribbean but through the Pacific Islands and then extend to Hawaii and the Caribbean. The success of Hawaiian athletes is phenomenal but they haven’t been exposed to rugby league.

“This is a great opportunity to expose these young men and women to the opportunities that exist in a great sport such as rugby league. It would create a new benchmark in terms of rugby league.”
“We would use a sports education program to develop those athletes through the Orcas sports academy. You’d be identifying all those key athletes at aged 14 and 15 into a focused sports education program, all built around rugby league.
“Our thinking is to offer a sports education model to attract them to rugby league. We need to develop the pathways domestically and internationally.”
Elite players would be developed and identified at ages 14 and 15 before being relocated to a high performance program in New Zealand aged 16.

The Orcas plan to launch their pathway and development academy in February next year.
“The target ages would be 14 or 15 – that’s your key development age,” Chalmers said.
“We would develop them in their countries and islands – they would need their families and support – and then the next level of development would be relocation to New Zealand and into a high performance system.
“That’s when you can start to build all the armoury needed for playing a collision sport like rugby league.
“We want to broaden the pathways. There are a number of phenomenal athletes that haven’t been able to access pathways to reach their potential in rugby league. We will put pathways into the islands.”
The Orcas hope to be the NRL’s 20th side behind the Western Bears and PNG, who will formally be announced on Thursday
So the Orcas would become the derecho Pasifika team? Just not playing there.

While also representing the entire South Island and people on here suggest Wellington as well?
 

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