NRL Expansion. Ideas and opinions.

[siv]

That is ridiculous idea but then maybe the Roosters could stretch to Newcastle as well and maybe merge take over with St. Steelers, Sharks and then push out west and merge also with the Eels, Bulldogs, Panthers, Souths and West Tigers and become a Super NRL side called New South Wales Blues or something ?

Why bother with a token NSW team let all NSW teams leave the NRL and go back and play NSWRL

And draw up a new TV deal

Then you can have all NRL grand finals up in Suncorp

 

[theo]

The Sydney representative team should be free from the bureaucracy of financial caps in the way the New South Wales state team and the Australian national team are free from the bureaucracy of financial caps.

With the Quantity Import Rule and the Quality Import Rule in place at club level,

Quantity Import Rule

Addressing the foreign worker issue (which is also a concern in politics amongst political parties, businesses, and voters) allow a maximum of three imports (players outside of the Sydney competition) for each club. If an imported player plays for the Sydney representative team, that player is then considered a local. The club is rewarded for Sydney representation and the import rule minimises the clubs risk from being an import dumping ground. The import rule doesn't mean a club must have three imports, indeed a club may have no imports.

Quality Import Rule

Have a points import rule to replace the financial aspects that is seeable. The seeable test could be as simple as, if a player plays first grade that player is worth one point, represents the state worth another point, represents the country worth another point, therefore the player is worth three points. Each club is allocated points they can spend on players outside the club.

The question of player payments and who pays arises.

All players are paid a base wage at every club in the competition and then more if they unlock achievements such as a certain amount of matches, state representation, country representation, etc. There's no competing for players on the market based on price because players will get the same amount at every club.

The league pays all players based on their achievements and the clubs are relieved of pay office duties. Payments made to players for sponsorships, advertisements, endorsements, etc. are not the concern of the league nor the clubs.

With the foundations in place at the Sydney competition level the Sydney representative team, like the New South Wales state team and the Australian national team, are free of bureaucracy.

 

[Teddyboy]

If we're doing our ideal lineups. Pie in the sky really when you consider we can't even get 2 new teams but here goes.

1. Newcastle Knights (12 Hunter)
2. North Coast Sea Eagles (6 Central Coast, 6 Brookvale or SFS)
3. Eastern Sydney Roosters (12 SFS)
4. South Sydney Rabbitohs (11 SFS or ANZ, 1 Country)
5. St George Illawarra Dragons (6 Kograh or SFS, 6 Wollongong)
6. Cronulla Sharks (12 Shark Park)
7. Parramatta Eels (11 WSS,1 Country)
8. Wests Tigers (9 WSS, 1 Leichardt, 1 Cambpelltown, 1 Country)
9. Penrith Panthers (9 Penrith, 2 WSS, 1 Country)
10. Canterbury Bulldogs (11 ANZ,1 Belmore)
11. Canberra Raiders (11 Canberra, 1 Riverina)
12. North Queensland Cowboys (12 NQ Stadium)
13. Brisbane Broncos (12 Suncorp)
14. Gold Coast Titans (12Cbus)
15. Western Jets (12 Games Suncorp, 6&6 if a 20-25k ground built in Ipswich)
16. Moreton Bay Dolphins (10 Suncorp, 1 Dolphin Oval, 1 Sunshine Coast)
17. Melbourne Storm (12 AAMI Park)
18. Adelaide Bears (11 Adelaide,1 SFS V Sea Eagles)
19. Perth Reds (12 Games NiB Perth)
20. South Auckland Warriors (12 Games Mt Smart)
21. North Auckland Vulcans (12 Games North Harbour)
22. South NZ Orcas (9 Wellington, 3 Christchurch)

20 is probably a better number if that can be consolidated a bit, 3rd NZ & Brisbane teams probably the obvious ones to leave out.

Like I said, pie, sky.

Christ no just any team play out of one ground as having more then one stadium is just a waste of space and money

 

[theo]

My opening statement in this thread was,

"Put all the Sydney teams in a Sydney rugby league competition to feed a Sydney rugby league team for the national competition."

When writing the statement I looked at the selection of City players against Country in the now-defunct fixture. City players were chosen on origin criteria, therefore, excluding players who resided and played for a Sydney team but were from another place. I thought there's nothing wrong with that but would there be room for those from another place while retaining local content, hence the Quantity Import Rule and Quality Import Rule.

Perhaps regarding the Quantity Import Rule and Quality Import Rule, they could be inclusive and exclusive of each other. If clubs have representative players then those players are counted in the three allowed column, and having three or more than three, means the club can't buy representative players from outside the club but can retain those that are already there. Also, if clubs don't have representative players but have three imports, the club can't buy players from outside the club.

I hope readers can see the logic and precedence of my statements.

My statements at this forum thread, and there have been a few, have been made with the intention of keeping the integrity of the sport at its soul.

 

[theo]

The culture for the sport from juniors through to seniors must be in place for sustainability. At the steelworks where I worked, we had a motto 'Do It Right The First Time' even if it meant waiting, like waiting for the swell to catch a wave surfing.

Sydney has a population of 5 million and has 9 teams = 555,555 per team, Melbourne has a population of 4 million and has 1 team = 4,000,000 per team because the culture for the sport ain't there.

However, it may appear as though Sydney teams are cannibalising each other and not feeling the full force of their final wins, one team one city, because since 1982 when the market was opened to teams outside of Sydney, Brisbane and Melbourne are top of the list https://forums.leagueunlimited.com/threads/final-wins.472429

What would happen if there was one team representing Sydney? The surplus of players who can play first grade and miss out would probably go to other teams outside of Sydney such as Melbourne, Brisbane, Canberra, etc. rather than settle for a lower reputation league. Or maybe not.

What if teams outside of Sydney were at full strength and do not take the surplus from Sydney?

Then expansion talks get aired but without my comment in the opening paragraph, they become mercenary teams. And as the Australian Rugby League and Australian Super League war found, the soul of the game takes precedence over the prostitution of the game.

I would rather see Perth and Adelaide in the national competition to complement the cities of... Townsville, Brisbane, Gold Coast, Newcastle, Canberra, Melbourne, Auckland, Sydney.

There are only two states playing state v state on a regular basis, New South Wales and Queensland because of quality reasons, so ten teams in the national competition are enough for a population of 25 million for quality reasons.

 

[MrE_Assassin]

I would rather see Perth and Adelaide in the national competition to complement the cities of... Townsville, Brisbane, Gold Coast, Newcastle, Canberra, Melbourne, Auckland, Sydney.

There are only two states playing state v state on a regular basis, New South Wales and Queensland because of quality reasons, so ten teams in the national competition are enough for a population of 25 million for quality reasons.

Wow, talk about spam.... Take a breath, son.

 

[theo]

Wow, talk about spam.... Take a breath, son.

Good luck against Melbourne MrE_Assassin. Bad luck about Cooper Cronk.

Easts had a good year finishing first and probably don't get the accolades they deserve as is the case with previous teams finishing first because the way the competition is structured apparently the competition starts three weeks before the Final. Really?

Interesting the format in world football. Most countries have a league and cup which are separate. I would like to see a knockout cup format that involves all teams but separate from the regular league. Along the lines of 1 V 16, 2 V 15, 3 V 14, etc. Straight knockout. Round of 16, Quarter Final, Semi Final, Final.

Perhaps all teams that lose can play the following week but in the loses side of the draw. The winners keep playing winners. In the end, every team will have played 4 matches to determine their position. At least fans will have something to watch rather than switch off. Fans support their own team more than another.

I wouldn't care if my preferred cup format was played post-season, in-season, or pre-season. If it was in-season then the last week or first week of every month for four months, because there would be four matches, would be set aside for cup matches only replacing the state matches. In an ideal environment, state matches would be played post-season as a matter of progression followed by international matches.

It's a matter of mentality and respecting team performances for the regular season in the way played in world soccer and finishing first, for example, doesn't diminish their season performance should they make and lose the cup final.

Perhaps there's a market to play monthly cup format tournaments throughout the season in the way tennis and rugby 7s are played replacing the league format. Or maybe not.

Ideas. It's not a crime to think.

 

[theo]

Wow, talk about spam.... Take a breath, son.

I'm a Saints fan.

Saints of modern times are the new North Sydney Bears. Somehow there was a transference of black swan events from the Bears to the Saints... snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. There are infinite ways to lose and Saints are going through them all. Modern day rugby league, and for that matter sport, because of the power of money and betting on sport is like a casino and the casino always has the edge. Winning 1 final from the last 6 appearances says so.

Though looking at the table https://forums.leagueunlimited.com/threads/final-wins.472429 Easts are not far behind with 2 wins from 6 appearances = 33%.

Easts get a chance to change those numbers and Sunday night we will know which way.

As I said in my previous post, good luck.

 

[MrE_Assassin]

Ideas. It's not a crime to think.

I wish I had that much spare time to think that much about stuff outside of work.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

Serious question, could we have P&R for Sydney teams only? (obviously for strategic reasons we can't risk Melbourne, Brisbane, Gold Coast or the Warriors being relegated).

Then we could have a 16 team comp with:
North Queensland
Brisbane
Brisbane 2
Gold Coast
Auckland
NZ 2
Melbourne
Canberra
Newcastle
Perth
and six spots for Sydney clubs

NSW Cup / NRL 2 to field independent clubs that don't align with any NRL clubs. Bottom placed Sydney club has a play-off against the NSW Cup premiers for the 6th Sydney NRL spot.

I know this is controversial but it would keep all traditional Sydney clubs relevant (including Newtown and North Sydney as they always have direct entry back to the NRL if they fall on hard times in the short term), it would definately boost the popularity and interest in the NSW Cup which could use the traditional suburban grounds. It would intensify Sydney rugby league rivalries as they all fight for NRL status each year and it would free up spots in the NRL to expand the game without expanding the number of teams.

Parachute payments from the NRL would help clubs that get relegated from going broke and the salary cap would be the same for all teams in the top two teirs (like in England) so that an ambitious, cashed up second teir side could compete.

Imagine North Sydney v Manly in a play-off for an NRL spot - I would imagine that tickets would be fairly hot for that one.

 

[Perth Red]

Serious question, could we have P&R for Sydney teams only? (obviously for strategic reasons we can't risk Melbourne, Brisbane, Gold Coast or the Warriors being relegated).

Then we could have a 16 team comp with:
North Queensland
Brisbane
Brisbane 2
Gold Coast
Auckland
NZ 2
Melbourne
Canberra
Newcastle
Perth
and six spots for Sydney clubs

NSW Cup / NRL 2 to field independent clubs that don't align with any NRL clubs. Bottom placed Sydney club has a play-off against the NSW Cup premiers for the 6th Sydney NRL spot.

I know this is controversial but it would keep all traditional Sydney clubs relevant (including Newtown and North Sydney as they always have direct entry back to the NRL if they fall on hard times in the short term), it would definately boost the popularity and interest in the NSW Cup which could use the traditional suburban grounds. It would intensify Sydney rugby league rivalries as they all fight for NRL status each year and it would free up spots in the NRL to expand the game without expanding the number of teams.

Parachute payments from the NRL would help clubs that get relegated from going broke and the salary cap would be the same for all teams in the top two teirs (like in England) so that an ambitious, cashed up second teir side could compete.

Imagine North Sydney v Manly in a play-off for an NRL spot - I would imagine that tickets would be fairly hot for that one.

The revenue gap between NRL and second tier would be so massive that clubs going down would likely go bust and clubs coming up would struggle massively. Pretty much every club that has been promoted to SL in last few years has either gone back down or sat at bottom of table.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

The revenue gap between NRL and second tier would be so massive that clubs going down would likely go bust and clubs coming up would struggle massively. Pretty much every club that has been promoted to SL in last few years has either gone back down or sat at bottom of table.

Well then it will show which clubs just don't have the fan base or clout to be in the NRL - P&R will allow every Sydney club to find their level and the game won't be artificially propping up clubs that don't belong there and are taking the spots of expansion clubs.

If the fanbase of a club that goes down doesn't like it, they can rally around the team by investing in memberships etc but ultimately if there are not enough of them then maybe NSW Cup is their correct level. At least they still exist and aren't doing so in a way that will hold the NRL back.

 

[Perth Red]

Well then it will show which clubs just don't have the fan base or clout to be in the NRL - P&R will allow every Sydney club to find their level and the game won't be artificially propping up clubs that don't belong there and are taking the spots of expansion clubs.

If the fanbase of a club that goes down doesn't like it, they can rally around the team by investing in memberships etc but ultimately if there are not enough of them then maybe NSW Cup is their correct level. At least they still exist and aren't doing so in a way that will hold the NRL back.

Accept that one automatically goes down regardless of if the club replacing them is any better, stronger or more sustainable. You end up with yoyo clubs which is exactly what happens in soccer and RL in UK. The club coming up doesn't have long enough to build a decent club before its battling relegation again. Reality is success on field equals success off the field in sport and coming up with no time to build a squad and little money to do so means the following year your not getting the revenue and are back at the bottom facing relegation. Its a fundamentally flawed system unless you have massive funding available for the second tier so the revenue and salary cap are very close to each other. It can get rid of the deadwood for sure but its rare the deadwood is replaced with a stronger club.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

Accept that one automatically goes down regardless of if the club replacing them is any better, stronger or more sustainable. You end up with yoyo clubs which is exactly what happens in soccer and RL in UK. The club coming up doesn't have long enough to build a decent club before its battling relegation again. Reality is success on field equals success off the field in sport and coming up with no time to build a squad and little money to do so means the following year your not getting the revenue and are back at the bottom facing relegation. Its a fundamentally flawed system unless you have massive funding available for the second tier so the revenue and salary cap are very close to each other. It can get rid of the deadwood for sure but its rare the deadwood is replaced with a stronger club.

I know what you mean, which is why I put a play-off in there rather than just one up, one down. What I would be trying to achieve out of this system is the six strongest Sydney clubs in the NRL (yes, they will probably be the same ones each year) but access to the NRL for all Sydney clubs so the fans of the clubs in NSW Cup don't feel like they've been left out in the cold. If they get their act together and (in the case of the Bears for example) can get some serious backing by some corporates or passionate wealthy supporters can achieve their dream of NRL status again.

 

[MrE_Assassin]

I know what you mean, which is why I put a play-off in there rather than just one up, one down. What I would be trying to achieve out of this system is the six strongest Sydney clubs in the NRL (yes, they will probably be the same ones each year) but access to the NRL for all Sydney clubs so the fans of the clubs in NSW Cup don't feel like they've been left out in the cold. If they get their act together and (in the case of the Bears for example) can get some serious backing by some corporates or passionate wealthy supporters can achieve their dream of NRL status again.

My problem would be that if your'e going to do this then where do the top flight teams source their replacments from in the event of injury, etc. The reason why teams use ISP/ISC teams as feeder clubs is so that their fringe players are playing regular, high-skill games and staying active, rather than typical park footy. If you cut that out from the clubs in the top tier then yes you can have a whole bunch of replacements in your top 30 players but half of them wont be playing regular footy week in and week out.

This then doesn't improve their skills at all and I'm sure teams in the lower flight who are vying for NRL acceptance wont be allowing top flight teams to pinch player in the event of injury, and damage their chances down the track.

You could implement trade schemes or player loans and stuff like that but I think on the whole the concept doesn't work, at least not for the NRL/Rugby League as it is. It would take a massive overhaul of the competition and probably a significant disruption/intro phase to get it off the ground.

 

[theo]

I'm a purist at heart and to tell the truth if you've gotta know, I wish it was just about kids having fun at the park without a scoreboard, and we have all felt that. Sure there was competition but it was about the object of the game, and not to be hurtful towards anybody.

What turns me on is the atmosphere. The expectation of the performance.

Think about your local area and how the juniors operate from Under 6's to Under 18's. The players play for their suburb, some may represent their council area if chosen, some from council representation may represent their city, some from city representation may represent their state, some from their state representation may represent their country.

I like the geographical feeder model... feels good.

There's a logical progression without corporate corruption.

 

[MrE_Assassin]

I'm a purist at heart and to tell the truth if you've gotta know, I wish it was just about kids having fun at the park without a scoreboard......

....Think about your local area and how the juniors operate from Under 6's to Under 18's. The players play for their suburb, some may represent their council area if chosen, some from council representation may represent their city, some from city representation may represent their state, some from their state representation may represent their country.

There's a logical progression without corporate corruption.

Unfortunately I don’t think any top flight teams can survive on a handful of mums & dad’s turning up and getting funds from the ground canteen and the local butcher.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

My problem would be that if your'e going to do this then where do the top flight teams source their replacments from in the event of injury, etc. The reason why teams use ISP/ISC teams as feeder clubs is so that their fringe players are playing regular, high-skill games and staying active, rather than typical park footy. If you cut that out from the clubs in the top tier then yes you can have a whole bunch of replacements in your top 30 players but half of them wont be playing regular footy week in and week out.

This then doesn't improve their skills at all and I'm sure teams in the lower flight who are vying for NRL acceptance wont be allowing top flight teams to pinch player in the event of injury, and damage their chances down the track.

You could implement trade schemes or player loans and stuff like that but I think on the whole the concept doesn't work, at least not for the NRL/Rugby League as it is. It would take a massive overhaul of the competition and probably a significant disruption/intro phase to get it off the ground.

I see what you mean but any form of expansion is going to require a growth in the player pool. PNG, the Pacific Islands, Vic and WA are not being tapped to their full potential at the moment and we could do more in New Zealand.

The idea is that using the popular suburban grounds, stand-alone clubs and the added reward of winning the premiership, the NSW Cup will grow in popularity to be more than just a park comp.

 

[MrE_Assassin]

I see what you mean but any form of expansion is going to require a growth in the player pool. PNG, the Pacific Islands, Vic and WA are not being tapped to their full potential at the moment and we could do more in New Zealand.

The idea is that using the popular suburban grounds, stand-alone clubs and the added reward of winning the premiership, the NSW Cup will grow in popularity to be more than just a park comp.

I think it would be better if it were run like College Football is in the States. College football is on a Saturday and it’s the only football that is on. If people want to see football on a Saturday they go to a college game. It has its own broadcast deals and all that, which in relation to the ISP/ISC would mean a good cash injection and exclusive broadcast on saturdays. It would also provide some of the smaller local businesses exposure too. It means people would get down those local grounds you talk of and support a local team. This means the smaller clubs could build up cash flow too.

The games are generally a lot cheaper to watch than your NFL games too. The lower cost to watch live games could encourage people to go watch the ISP/ISC games live and build up fan bases for those clubs as well as people supporting an NRL team through memberships and multi-ticket deals.

 

[theo]

Unfortunately I don’t think any top flight teams can survive on a handful of mums & dad’s turning up and getting funds from the ground canteen and the local butcher.

They could try

Then the question must be what next? One minute we are kids having fun in front of parents and friends with no responsibility other than to train and play because everything is organised for us, and the next minute we are in front of thousands of fans in the national competition.

The Australian team is funded and the state team is funded and accepted as part of the norm.

Everybody has a level and with that level comes funding.

If you want to raise the reputation of the league then you must give equal support to all teams in the competition and treat them like your own kids. And as parents, we are parents now, we've gone from kids having fun in front of parents and friends and then playing in front of thousands of fans, we are the providers albeit some richer than others.

Do the funders of the sport care about the sport, the league, or the club only?

I wouldn't care if there were no live matches on television or radio and only replays through the week.

Television and radio ratings are the sizzle but the meat is crowds at the ground.