NRL Expansion Priorities

[Rodney]

I bet some NRL clubs would crave their success rate, crowd numbers and consistancy

First and last things, probably yes.
however CC crowds aren't really something any NRL club would crave.
CC have averaged below 10k for 4 consecutive seasons (despite last season finishing 2nd on the ladder and winning the finals) and is looking to continue that trend into this season (currently averaging 9915.5 for 2013/14)

 

[Perth Red]

Funny how you say there is not enough room for another NSW team but then you mention Perth where 100% of the team will need to be relocated from NSW and QLD anyways. Oh look there is a WA team in the NRL but no WA players, yeah makes sense. .

I'm sure we'll recruit some kiwis and poms as well. You know like every other team lol.

Whose to say in five years there won't be half a dozen WA players in the NRL ready to move home.

 

[Hello, I'm The Doctor]

Funny how you say there is not enough room for another NSW team but then you mention Perth where 100% of the team will need to be relocated from NSW and QLD anyways. Oh look there is a WA team in the NRL but no WA players, yeah makes sense. I have always regarded Melbourne as another QLD side. The Central Coast has the 3rd largest league nursery but we don't deserve our own side yet then people say without juniors there is no rugby league. We don't care about NRL game variety we want a side of our own.

Funny how people continually say how the Mariners are struggling financially but I bet some NRL clubs would crave their success rate, crowd numbers and consistancy. Hell the Mariners never buy players of STAR level but they are always up the top of the competition and this a soccer side in rugby league heartland. No wonder other clubs are scared of the Coast having an NRL side. Hell some clubs may have to start developing their OWN juniors.

Oh god, the stupidity of this physically hurts me.

I tried to go through everything and explain exactly why these are such arguments, but it made me sad for humanity that i had to explain such basic shit to another adult.

I try not to insult people too often but you sir have broken my spirit. You are a f*cking moron and it makes me sad that i had to read your shit.

 

[Ourimbah Magpies]

Oh god, the stupidity of this physically hurts me.

I tried to go through everything and explain exactly why these are such arguments, but it made me sad for humanity that i had to explain such basic shit to another adult.

I try not to insult people too often but you sir have broken my spirit. You are a f*cking moron and it makes me sad that i had to read your shit.

Haha good one Doctor, sorry if I don't agree with you but thats why we have these forums, I was thinking the same thing about you but I'm the type of guy to say it to somebodys face not behind a keyboard. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion the only problem is I live up here on the Central Coast and see everything first hand. I've watched Melbourne wait 15 years to produce their first NRL standard player while finishing in the red every season while being propped by News Ltd, I watched the Western Reds when they were in the competition and all of the financial problems they had especially with travel costs.

 

[Ourimbah Magpies]

I'm sure we'll recruit some kiwis and poms as well. You know like every other team lol.

Whose to say in five years there won't be half a dozen WA players in the NRL ready to move home.

Thats my point, WA may have a handful of NRL players after five years but the Central Coast are already producing them, why should we be overlooked because our players can go to other clubs. Under the Central Coast Bears brand we would've had Mitchell Pearce, Kieran Foran, James Maloney, Chris Heighington, Jono Wright, Tim Moltzen, Akuila Uate, Josh Drinkwater etc, etc. The Knights S.G.Ball squad is half full of Coast boys, Manly, the Bulldogs and Norths have a few also. Imagine if we had our own side for our local junior players to strive for, the potential is limitless. Oh but its okay for us not to have an NRL because our players can go to either the Knights or Manly. The future of the game are our juniors why aren't some NRL clubs forced to develop theirs afterall without juniors there is no future.

 

[Hello, I'm The Doctor]

Haha good one Doctor, sorry if I don't agree with you but thats why we have these forums, I was thinking the same thing about you but I'm the type of guy to say it to somebodys face not behind a keyboard. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion the only problem is I live up here on the Central Coast and see everything first hand. I've watched Melbourne wait 15 years to produce their first NRL standard player while finishing in the red every season while being propped by News Ltd, I watched the Western Reds when they were in the competition and all of the financial problems they had especially with travel costs.

Ok, youve talked me into it. But i cant put myself through reading your earlier posts again, so ill just speak broadly...

A National Rugby League team is not there to produce players, that is the job of every level beneath the NRL, from under-6 to the State Cups. The purpose of an NRL team is to produce fans and instill interest in a given community.

You say that Melbourne has been a failure because it took 15 years to bring in a local junior and you say Perth will fail in the same way. You also say that a Central Coast team will be a success because it will be stocked with local juniors from the first day. But let's examine that...

The Storm have, in an AFL territory, created a membership base of upwards of 15,000. The Storm have done well to create interest in the sport (regardless of the fact that all of their best players are Queenslanders); it is also important to realise that, without this interest, Rugby League would never have been noticed by the Victorian kid and a junior nursery could never have been created.

Its kind of a "cart before the horse" scenario; the NRL team always had to come first, and therefore was always going to be full of ring-ins.

If you consider it in those terms, then the Storm have been an increadibly successful team; a success that will only be duplicated in Perth with the placement of an NRL team.

Secondly..., as i said earlier, you would consider the Bears to be successful because they are stocked with local juniors from the beginning.

Lets be sure to state this, these are juniors that would have been brought through regardless of the bears existance, and that is the point. When arguing in terms of junior development, the Bears do not have a compelling case, because the systems are already there to bring players through and they are churning them out quickly; as you said, they are the 3rd biggest nursery in the country.

 

[reanimate]

Funny how you say there is not enough room for another NSW team but then you mention Perth where 100% of the team will need to be relocated from NSW and QLD anyways. Oh look there is a WA team in the NRL but no WA players, yeah makes sense. I have always regarded Melbourne as another QLD side. The Central Coast has the 3rd largest league nursery but we don't deserve our own side yet then people say without juniors there is no rugby league. We don't care about NRL game variety we want a side of our own. I couldn't support the Northern Eagles as it was really Manly in disguise, if the merger was 50/50 well yes but it wasn't.

Perth is already doing decently in terms of junior development- look at Perth Red's posts across the forum, the WARL have been doing really well with bugger all funding and the game being treated like absolute sh*t by Nine over there. Imagine what WA will be able to do with the consistent interest and money an NRL team would bring in.

It's all well and good to take potshots at the Storm for only recently bringing Victorian juniors into first grade, but that's ignoring the fact that they've had to battle to attract interest in a market where people are often openly indoctrinated into being hostile towards Rugby League and will go out of their way to try and block RL's progress in the area. The fact that they've survived, performed well onfield, and are now well on their way to pushing great crowd averages and membership numbers after they were nearly destroyed by the salary cap scandal speaks volumes of how far they've come. That they're now bringing Victorian born-and-bred players into first grade, a feat that would've seemed absolutely laughable before their existence, is a testament to their success.

The fact is that the NRL is a business. It's not an awards program for who can produce the most juniors, most juniors does not equal being rewarded with an NRL team (as much as that may be unfair). The NRL would much rather expand to Perth where they can have a team in a growing capital city, be open to sponsorship from local/WA businesses who would otherwise be uninterested in being involved in the NRL, open up a whole new tv timeslot (a very, very important point going for them), as well as grow RL interest and player base in an effectively untapped market.

Funny how people continually say how the Mariners are struggling financially but I bet some NRL clubs would crave their success rate, crowd numbers and consistancy. Hell the Mariners never buy players of STAR level but they are always up the top of the competition and this a soccer side in rugby league heartland. No wonder other clubs are scared of the Coast having an NRL side. Hell some clubs may have to start developing their OWN juniors.

Nah, no NRL side is craving having sub 10k averages while struggling financially.

 

[The Great Dane]

Ourimbah Magpies you clearly don't understand most of the fundamentals of the business side of professional sport (especially when it comes to the reasons why and how a competition would expand), that's no big deal, I don't think many on this site could claim to be experts of the business side of professional sport, certainly not myself.

But when it comes to conversations like these you need to at least have an understanding of the basics to push your point of view (lets be honest agenda), and quite frankly you seem to not have a grasp of any of the basics, the best example of this being this quote here-

Funny how people continually say how the Mariners are struggling financially but I bet some NRL clubs would crave their success rate, crowd numbers and consistancy. Hell the Mariners never buy players of STAR level but they are always up the top of the competition and this a soccer side in rugby league heartland. No wonder other clubs are scared of the Coast having an NRL side. Hell some clubs may have to start developing their OWN juniors.

.

You completely misunderstand that success and consistency on the field count for very little on this side of professional sport, it's all about sustainability, assets, parent companies, partners, sponsors and ultimately the bottom line. Though on field success and off field success are not always mutually exclusive, you don't need one to have the other and in lots of cases progressing one can be at the determent of the other.

Look at it this way which is better for the game and business of RL? A club that will almost certainly be around for a very long time, that during that time can invest in and make progress for the game in it's area for a long and sustained period of time without there being a constant shadow of possibly not being there in a years time, or a is club that has a short and inevitably unsustainable period of on field success that leads to better growth of the sport in it's area for a short period of time, but is financially unsustainable and is unlikely to be around in 5 years time?

 

[bobmar28]

I was thinking 8-4 split, but fair enough, Manly would be pretty thinly spread. Maybe the Roosters??? We all know they cant pack out a Stadium 12 times a year; If they moved games that wouldnt draw well in Sydney, say Newcastle, Manly,Melbourne and a Queenland team, itd probably give their crowds a nice boost and they could commit long term to the area, ala Dragons and the Illawarra.



Why would the Roosters move any games anywhere? Our club just won the comp, had a 20 000 crowd average and are very well off financially. Maybe instead of looking at moving Easts games in order to get more juniors maybe you could all look at why the NRL/ARL have ignored the Eastern Suburbs in development for so long.

Like it or not the East is a very important area to Sydney sport/business and while AFL,Soccor and RU have thrown so much time and money into the area the RL has left it to a club to fight against whole sports organisations. Don't get me wrong Easts could and should of done more yet if Souths didn't steal Easts boundaries( has anyone ever thought there in south sydney while in coogee?) and the RL made an effort in the East like they do in the west of Sydney then we would never be having this conversation.

The only way for a CC team to work is to have its own CC team and area. It can't work if a Sydney team goes and plays 4 games a year there. CC deserve there own team however unfortunately there is not enough room for another NSW team while there is no Perth.

There will never be enough room for an 11th NSW team. The CC will get a team only when a Sydney team fails or merges. Or maybe relocates.

 

[The Mad Hatter]

Not to be bitchy, but a team with very few if any local juniors won the 2013 NRL comp.

Bloody fantastic recruitment and development though.

 

[Perth Red]

Thats my point, WA may have a handful of NRL players after five years but the Central Coast are already producing them, why should we be overlooked because our players can go to other clubs. .

For the simple and obvious fact that, unfortunately for the prospects of a NRL club in Gosford, you are in NSW! Other things such as level of support, financial sustainability etc are all conjecture and can't really be proven one way or the other till a club is introduced. The one thing that is fact and will never change is that the NRL does not want or need another club in NSW. It, arguably, has too many already and will not add to that problem by bringing in another NSW club into a league it wants to have a bigger footprint with and that has under represenatation in 3 other key areas.

I actually agree with you and think a club in Gosford has the potential to be bigger than at least two current NSW clubs but that isn't the point. They have a license and it wil not be revoked and the NRL wants a more National game, TV wants another team in Brisbane and the game needs another club in NZ. That leaves Gosford in the unfortunate position of being in a saturated market that will not be added to.

 

[rednblack]

The one thing that is fact and will never change is that the NRL does not want or need another club in NSW.

Really? You have proof of this fact I assume? Perhaps you can point to the media release where this was categorically started? I didn't realize you were authorized by the NRL to speak on their behalf. Or is this really just your opinion, your assumption of what the situation might actually be...?

 

[The Great Dane]

Really? You have proof of this fact I assume? Perhaps you can point to the media release where this was categorically started? I didn't realize you were authorized by the NRL to speak on their behalf. Or is this really just your opinion, your assumption of what the situation might actually be...?

Name a market inside of NSW that would be able able to support a new(/ the return of a) team, without encroaching into the incredibly over saturated Sydney market?

A new club in NSW within the next 10-15 years just isn't going to happen, unless we want another club that lives on very unstable foundations.

The best the CC can hope for is a relocation by one of the current clubs in Sydney with some sort of deal like Wollongong has, unless of course they're willing to wait.

 

[ek999]

Funny how people continually say how the Mariners are struggling financially but I bet some NRL clubs would crave their success rate, crowd numbers and consistancy. Hell the Mariners never buy players of STAR level but they are always up the top of the competition and this a soccer side in rugby league heartland. No wonder other clubs are scared of the Coast having an NRL side. Hell some clubs may have to start developing their OWN juniors.

Lol. The Mariners average crowd is worse than every single NRL club.

 

[Rodney]

Thats my point, WA may have a handful of NRL players after five years but the Central Coast are already producing them, why should we be overlooked because our players can go to other clubs.

Because fielding an NRL side has a lot more qualifiers than the amount of juniors an area produces.
The viability of a team financially is probably the most important factor, with the club ideally supposed to be able to support itself into the future solely from Footballing activities alone.

A new NRL side should also be able to live up to the NRL's lofty standards for the future.
There are serious doubts that the Central Coast are going to be able to live up to the NRL's goal of an NRL wide average attendance of 20 000.

I realize that some clubs that are currently part of the NRL *cough Sharks cough* probably are even less ideal on paper and will probably fall well below this mark, however it would be stupid to birth another club bound to stuggle financially and crowd wise just because the Sharks have lowered the overall standards. The NRL should seek to only admit clubs that seem ideal in as many aspects as possible.

The future of the game are our juniors why aren't some NRL clubs forced to develop theirs afterall without juniors there is no future.

Every club devotes a decent chunk of resources to junior development and well as scouting.
Every NSW and ACT based club has an u16, u18 and u20s outfit.

 

[ek999]

Producing juniors is the key to getting an NRL side? f**k Perth, I look forward to the Riverina getting an NRL side soon instead. Add in Albury-Wodonga and the population is fairly similar to the Central Coast. I look forward to seeing Ryan Hinchcliffe, Andrew Fifita, Willie Tonga (started playing league in Coota), Nigel Plum, Jamie Soward, Michael Dobson, Josh McCrone and others finally return home and play for where they came from. Might get Barrett to be coach

 

[rednblack]

Name a market inside of NSW that would be able able to support a new(/ the return of a) team, without encroaching into the incredibly over saturated Sydney market?

A new club in NSW within the next 10-15 years just isn't going to happen, unless we want another club that lives on very unstable foundations.

The best the CC can hope for is a relocation by one of the current clubs in Sydney with some sort of deal like Wollongong has, unless of course they're willing to wait.

Where did I argue that the Sydney market is not saturated?
That's not my point. The point is that pr used speculation and stated it as fact. This is patently incorrect. Unless he knows something the rest of the world doesn't, the NRL has not taken this decision yet, so his fact is inaccurate.

 

[The Great Dane]

Where did I argue that the Sydney market is not saturated?
That's not my point. The point is that pr used speculation and stated it as fact. This is patently incorrect. Unless he knows something the rest of the world doesn't, the NRL has not taken this decision yet, so his fact is inaccurate.

My point was that whichever way you look at it, you don't need a statement from the NRL/ARLC to be able to see that it is a fact that at the moment NSW would be unable to support another team on top of the ones that are already there.

So if you know otherwise name one area inside of NSW that would be able to support a new team without encroaching into the Sydney market!

 

[rednblack]

My point was that whichever way you look at it, you don't need a statement from the NRL/ARLC to be able to see that it is a fact that at the moment NSW would be unable to support another team on top of the ones that are already there.

It may seem semantic, but again, this is not a fact.
Whether your assumption is correct or not, you've clearly assumed that any more teams in NSW will be unviable, and stated it as fact. Yes, this may be based on known factors, and you may have taken into account many objective factors as well as subjective ones, but it remains your assumption, stated as fact.
What if, and bear with me here, some king from the middle east were to wake up and decide he wanted an NRL team in his portfolio. He's got zillions to splash, and he wants his team in Armidale or Tamworth so that it's close to his racing stud. He loves rugby league and he wants to build a new square stadium, club facilities etc for his new plaything. He applies to the NRL for a franchise license. Now would the NRL knock back his cash because his team would be in NSW?
As fanciful and unlikely as I admit this is, it shows that you can't just say that the NRL will never want or need another team in NSW.
Logical or not, there is no way to state as fact a hypothetical outcome.

 

[The Great Dane]

It may seem semantic, but again, this is not a fact.
Whether your assumption is correct or not, you've clearly assumed that any more teams in NSW will be unviable, and stated it as fact. Yes, this may be based on known factors, and you may have taken into account many objective factors as well as subjective ones, but it remains your assumption, stated as fact.
What if, and bear with me here, some king from the middle east were to wake up and decide he wanted an NRL team in his portfolio. He's got zillions to splash, and he wants his team in Armidale or Tamworth so that it's close to his racing stud. He loves rugby league and he wants to build a new square stadium, club facilities etc for his new plaything. He applies to the NRL for a franchise license. Now would the NRL knock back his cash because his team would be in NSW?
As fanciful and unlikely as I admit this is, it shows that you can't just say that the NRL will never want or need another team in NSW.
Logical or not, there is no way to state as fact a hypothetical outcome.

Where did I claim that "the NRL will never want or need another team in NSW"?!

What I said was that

A new club in NSW within the next 10-15 years just isn't going to happen, unless we want another club that lives on very unstable foundations.

.

Now whether you like it or not it is a fact, that there is nowhere in NSW that is able to support a new team and (following the very best projections) there won't be for at least 10-15 years (more realistically 25-30).

Maybe there are extremely unlikely situations where another team in NSW happens sooner, but they are by definition very unlikely to an extreme, and there for can't be factored into an argument as a serious point.

So again I ask you to name one area inside of NSW that would be able to support a new team without encroaching into the Sydney market, name just one that could be set up straight away and I and everybody who shares my point of view or a similar one will be proven wrong.