NRL: Lets talk about relocating teams, says QRL boss.

[Pommy]

Have you any idea that these sports are very different! ? The tyranny of distance that you ignore is critical with respects to fan attendance. This isn't about the clubs travelling to and from games by air ? It's about the fans! Wow. How lost are you! ?

How many away fans fly up to Townsville or over to Auckland?
I know some do but the numbers must be pretty negligible.

 

[Stallion]

Do you understand what the tyranny of distance is?

In your own words explain to me what you think the tyranny of distance means...

Cause realistically with modern technology the effects of the tyranny of distance are negligible at best and only really effect away support that intends to attend away games, which realistically is a minor issue these day when games can be relatively easily broadcast around the world.

So you would rather rid a well established competition of its local derbies!? Mmmm. Then you would be achieving a tyrramy of distance and on top of that massive loss of established supporter bases! Mmmmm. Great thinking! Too good for me......

 

[Stallion]

How many away fans fly up to Townsville or over to Auckland?
I know some do but the numbers must be pretty negligible.

Mmmmmm! I think you're seeing the light? It must be by mistake, but still where there is hope........!

 

[Pommy]

Mmmmmm! I think you're seeing the light? It must be by mistake, but still where there is hope........!

So your answer to that is you have no idea and the below quoted post was just waffle.

Have you any idea that these sports are very different! ? The tyranny of distance that you ignore is critical with respects to fan attendance. This isn't about the clubs travelling to and from games by air ? It's about the fans! Wow. How lost are you! ?

 

[Stallion]

So your answer to that is you have no idea and the below quoted post was just waffle.

? Different planet I suggest?

 

[Perth Red]

A more interesting debate is if we should have one second tier national competition or two state based second tiers like we have now. Also if NRL clubs should have sides in the second tier or if they should partner with other clubs in it so it doesn't look like a half arsed reserve grade?

I can see for cost and size that two second tiern 12-14 team conferences primarily with Qland and NSW clubs in it would work best but call them the same competition name and set them up as conferences with end of season playoffs leading to a grand final imo.

 

[The Great Dane]

So you would rather rid a well established competition of its local derbies!? Mmmm. Then you would be achieving a tyrramy of distance and on top of that massive loss of established supporter bases! Mmmmm. Great thinking! Too good for me......

Instead of carrying on with this BS would you please humour me and describe to me what you personally think the tyranny of distance is?!

Give me your definition of tyranny of distance if you will, cause until that happens nobody can get anywhere in the discussion cause we seem to be talking past each other because we hold different definitions of what the tyranny of distance actual means.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

A more interesting debate is if we should have one second tier national competition or two state based second tiers like we have now. Also if NRL clubs should have sides in the second tier or if they should partner with other clubs in it so it doesn't look like a half arsed reserve grade?

I can see for cost and size that two second tiern 12-14 team conferences primarily with Qland and NSW clubs in it would work best but call them the same competition name and set them up as conferences with end of season playoffs leading to a grand final imo.

I've stated previously (which started Stallion on one of his tyrrany of distance rants - sorry guys, my bad) that I think a national second teir could be fully professional (with lower salaries than the NRL of course) fully broadcast on Fox League with a game a week on 9 (which they do now for QLD and NSW Cup). The league could focus on the traditional old school angles that the NRL can't suburban grounds, family friendly time-slots, afternoon grand final kick-off time at ANZ on grand final day.

Any new club or aspiring NRL club can start here. My example was the NBL that can run a pro league with teams from all over Australia and NZ with the revenue that a comp like this would generate.

 

[The Great Dane]

A more interesting debate is if we should have one second tier national competition or two state based second tiers like we have now. Also if NRL clubs should have sides in the second tier or if they should partner with other clubs in it so it doesn't look like a half arsed reserve grade?

I can see for cost and size that two second tiern 12-14 team conferences primarily with Qland and NSW clubs in it would work best but call them the same competition name and set them up as conferences with end of season playoffs leading to a grand final imo.

My answer would kind of be both.

We should drop the NSW cup and Qld cup down to the third tier, then put a new national competition in onto of them at the second tier. How many teams are in each comp depends on demand, but all three should have multiple conferences in them to cut travel down as much as possible to make it more feasible for small towns to support teams without huge travel costs, and then install one up one down promotion and relegation between to the two tiers (maybe one up from each third tier comp and two down from the second tier if the other way turns out to be less feasible). To decide who is promoted and who is relegated the NSW cup premiers and the Qld cup premiers would continue to play off like they currently do except whoever wins gains promotion as well, and to decide who drops down the bottom team of each conference in the second tier would play off in a round robin or playoffs system (whatever's more feasible) while the finals are going on and whoever's on the bottom at the end drops down.

That way you'd create a system that is sufficiently different to the NRL to attract interest independent of it (not just for fans but for broadcasters as well) and not be seen as just a lower quality NRL, because of the way the the pro & reg works the conferences would have to be constantly reshuffled which would keep it fresh for fans, and you have a system that is as approachable as realistically possible for people looking to invest in the system but is also attractive to sponsors cause it'd got national reach.

Anyhow that's how I'd do it at least.

 

[TheFrog]

Anyhow that's how I'd do it at least.

Very confusing. I understand 3rd tier is the current NSW/Qld Cup, second tier is a national comp, so what is first tier?

 

[Stallion]

Instead of carrying on with this BS would you please humour me and describe to me what you personally think the tyranny of distance is?!

Give me your definition of tyranny of distance if you will, cause until that happens nobody can get anywhere in the discussion cause we seem to be talking past each other because we hold different definitions of what the tyranny of distance actual means.

Tyranny of distance: Difficulties associated with population centres separated by large distances. As with Australia believe it or not!

 

[The Great Dane]

Very confusing. I understand 3rd tier is the current NSW/Qld Cup, second tier is a national comp, so what is first tier?

The NRL Telstra premiership.

Having pro & reg into the NRL (the first tier) wouldn't be sustainable in Australia because of the lack of large population centres, for example all it would take is for Melbourne or Brisbane to have a bad year and get relegated leaving no Melbourne or Brisbane presence in the NRL and boom a quarter of the NRL's value to broadcasters and sponsors would go up in smoke which would be disastrous.

But in the lower tiers that's not as concerning cause unlike the Telstra premiership it wouldn't be set up with the intent that it makes as much money as possible (at least not to begin with, that could change) only that it makes as much money as it needs to sustain it's self and (hopefully) to allow it to continue to slowly grow, and the NRL wouldn't be reliant on the money that lower tiers produce to survive either, so if one of the big draw cards for sponsors and broadcasters like e.g. the only Perth team dropped out of the second tier into the third and carved the value of the second tier in half it wouldn't be the end of the world cause the NRL and the frankly the sport as a whole in the southern hemisphere wouldn't be reliant on the income generated by the second tier to survive.

Of course after a time when the NRL has significantly diversified it's income streams it could become possible to open up pro & reg between the first and second tiers, and that'd probably be the next logical step, but that'd be decades away.

 

[The Great Dane]

Tyranny of distance: Difficulties associated with population centres separated by large distances. As with Australia believe it or not!

We're using the same definition, you just don't understand that with modern broadcasting technology it's not a problem to anywhere near the degree that you think it is.

People actually attending away games basically makes no difference at all anymore when it comes to attracting and retaining fans cause people can still watch the whole season on TV or on the Net. Hell apart from the fact that the clubs need the income from memberships and ticket sales actually attending games at all makes no difference whatsoever.

There're plenty of fans that have never attended any games at all that are still huge fans, that still watch all of their clubs games, etc, but surely you know that cause you are constantly going on about the Sydney clubs wide appeal, but of course if your theory about the tyranny of distance was true then those fans wouldn't exist cause you need the game on your doorstep to draw fans and for some reason to create rivalries...

 

[Stallion]

We're using the same definition, you just don't understand that with modern broadcasting technology it's not a problem to anywhere near the degree that you think it is.

People actually attending away games basically makes no difference at all anymore when it comes to attracting and retaining fans cause people can still watch the whole season on TV or on the Net. Hell apart from the fact that the clubs need the income from memberships and ticket sales actually attending games at all makes no difference whatsoever.

There're plenty of fans that have never attended any games at all that are still huge fans, that still watch all of their clubs games, etc, but surely you know that cause you are constantly going on about the Sydney clubs wide appeal, but of course if your theory about the tyranny of distance was true then those fans wouldn't exist cause you need the game on your doorstep to draw fans and for some reason to create rivalries...

Glad we agree on the tyranny definition! It's moreso the cultural and local rivalries that are sustained through good and bad times is the benefit for Sydney based Top flight clubs. These clubs have immense traditional rivalries which are necessarily augmented and sustained by localism. What I would describe as the fabric of the NRL in Sydney. It's very crucial and important. Only now are we seeing the results from losing North Sydney. It manifests itself over time. And this is what has happened. The code has declined in Northern Sydney and now, as you rightly stated, the vulnerability of the code in a competitive northern Sydney region is being witnessed. Poor Manly, now having a downtime, has no local derby rival to sustain the locality rivalry that satisfied and catered for the sports punter of this area. Instead the code withers and declines. But yes, you make good sense and I'm relieved and grateful you have pointed this out very well. Great Dane: I'm starting to change my opinion of you. This is the most constructive comment you have offered! Well done. And Merry Christmas!

 

[TheFrog]

The NRL Telstra premiership.

So you are basically booting clubs out of the current comp, to make a second tier, am I right? If so, which clubs? Or is the second tier a bunch of totally new franchises, the expansion clubs we hear about? You have a plan but don't make it very clear.

 

[The Great Dane]

So you are basically booting clubs out of the current comp, to make a second tier, am I right? If so, which clubs?Or is the second tier a bunch of totally new franchises, the expansion clubs we hear about?

To start with you'd kick all the NRL reserve grade teams out of the lower tiers (so no NSW cup Bulldogs and no clubs that have direct partnerships with a specific NRL club) and introduce a duel registration system, then you'd introduce two rules:
1. Each club can only have one team in the professional pyramid.
2. That only clubs that come from the lower tiers will be considered for expansion of the NRL.

Then you'd guarantee a license to the current NSW cup and Qld cup clubs in at least the third tier that the NSW cup and QLD cup would be reformed into, but if they wish you'd allow them to bid to be part of the second tier (you might even quietly encourage a few to bid), then you'd start a bidding process to fill the second tier and third tier comps, the size of the comps would depend on the demand for licenses, but the best even number of bids would make up the initial clubs in the new second and third tier plus the current NSW cup and Qld cup clubs.

After that you'd introduce a set of minimum standards that any aspiring club must meet to join the third tier, and basically anybody that shows up that can meet them will be grated entry into the pyramid so long as the competition can support it.

In theory at least you could also drop under performing NRL clubs down into the second tier, though I'm not sure whether or not I'd do that to fill up the competition to begin with (or if it'd even be legal to force a club with an NRL license into the lower tiers), but if it was me I'd use it for rationalisation in the future and simply as a safety net for clubs that have gone broke or are struggling in the NRL and are open to dropping down.

You have a plan but don't make it very clear.

Unfortunately it's unavoidable, to fully lay out my thoughts on this subject I'd almost need to write a full business plan on it, which would take multiple long posts and would be very time consuming, so instead I just bring up the bits that are relevant to the discussion at hand and if people want ot know more I ask their questions as they come.

 

[The Great Dane]

Glad we agree on the tyranny definition!

That is good.

It's moreso the cultural and local rivalries that are sustained through good and bad times is the benefit for Sydney based Top flight clubs. These clubs have immense traditional rivalries which are necessarily augmented and sustained by localism. What I would describe as the fabric of the NRL in Sydney. It's very crucial and important.

But the tyranny of distance has no effect on local rivalries whatsoever, unless you are moving clubs and thus moving them away from their local rival (which as I've stated a million times I'm against relocations, so we agree that would be a bad thing), but even if the NRL was to expand to Timbuktu (to be clear I'm not suggesting that the NRL should actually expand to Timbuktu) the local rivalries in Sydney wouldn't be effected by that, they'd keep occurring year after year without change, it's just that a Timbuktu club would also be a part of the competition and every year the Sydney clubs would play them as well.

The Timbuktu club may not have a local rivalry of it's own, but that is a totally different issue.

Only now are we seeing the results from losing North Sydney. It manifests itself over time. And this is what has happened. The code has declined in Northern Sydney and now, as you rightly stated, the vulnerability of the code in a competitive northern Sydney region is being witnessed. Poor Manly, now having a downtime, has no local derby rival to sustain the locality rivalry that satisfied and catered for the sports punter of this area. Instead the code withers and declines. But yes, you make good sense and I'm relieved and grateful you have pointed this out very well. Great Dane: I'm starting to change my opinion of you. This is the most constructive comment you have offered! Well done. And Merry Christmas!

I don't want to get into this but with or without Norths and their rivalry with Norths, Manly would have got into the trouble that they are currently in. Their current struggles are all a product of mismanagement.

 

[Perth Red]

Storm have proven you don’t need to be in a neighbouring suburb to create rivalaries.

 

[mave]

Manly lost the North's rivalry, and we all quickly focused on Parra, Knights, Storm, etc. There will always be someone to hate.

PS...fk the Bears.

 

[Stallion]

That is good.



But the tyranny of distance has no effect on local rivalries whatsoever, unless you are moving clubs and thus moving them away from their local rival (which as I've stated a million times I'm against relocations, so we agree that would be a bad thing), but even if the NRL was to expand to Timbuktu (to be clear I'm not suggesting that the NRL should actually expand to Timbuktu) the local rivalries in Sydney wouldn't be effected by that, they'd keep occurring year after year without change, it's just that a Timbuktu club would also be a part of the competition and every year the Sydney clubs would play them as well.

The Timbuktu club may not have a local rivalry of it's own, but that is a totally different issue.



I don't want to get into this but with or without Norths and their rivalry with Norths, Manly would have got into the trouble that they are currently in. Their current struggles are all a product of mismanagement.

A long time rival being exited from a world renowned competition is having a negative affect in many ways on the remaining club in Manly Warringah . The dynamics of local rivalries are very imporant in a city with the geography and population of Sydney. Northern Sydney is in decline as far as rugby league is concerned. The code's vulnerability has been exposed since a major and longstanding rivalry has been eliminated. It's a very crucial aspect of rugby league's decline in northern Sydney. The people of northern Sydney have now been coerced /compelled into looking for alternative cultural rivalries and union,in particular, is benefitting.It matters Great Dane.