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NRL officially docks 2 points over Bulldogs 14 players

El Diablo

Post Whore
Messages
94,107
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25237741-2722,00.html

Bulldogs on mission to alter the law

Stuart Honeysett | March 25, 2009
Article from: The Australian

THE Bulldogs have called for an overhaul of the NRL's interchange rules after indicating they would appeal against a decision to strip the club of two competition points for fielding 14 men during their thrilling win over Penrith.

The league yesterday issued the club with a breach notice which includes the two-point penalty after its captain Andrew Ryan returned to the field last Saturday night to cover for hooker Michael Ennis who was down in back play.

The club has until next Wednesday to respond to the notice at which stage the points will be taken away and can only be reinstated if the club is successful in its appeal.

Ryan had already been interchanged for half Ben Roberts but rejoined the attacking line after allegedly being called back into play by trainer Tony Ayoub.

The Bulldogs shifted the ball wide for Roberts to score in the corner to help set up a 28-26 win and put them on top of the competition table.

Although Ryan was not involved in the movement, the league believed Penrith was disadvantaged because it should have only been defending against 12 men when the Bulldogs attacked their line.

After indicating the club intended to appeal on the grounds that the punishment was too severe, chief executive Todd Greenberg said the fact there had been five interchange bungles since 2000 suggested the NRL might need to fine-tune its system.

Of all the incidents, only two clubs lost points - North Queensland for having 14 men on the field against Parramatta in 2000 while the Broncos had theirs reinstated on appeal for a similar offence against Wests Tigers in 2004.

Several alternatives were mooted yesterday, including players entering and exiting from the same side of the field to avoid confusion, or even the introduction of the gate system that is employed by the AFL.

"For us, we've got to concentrate on getting an appeal done but on the broader issue of whether the system is right, it does tend to happen every couple of years," Greenberg said. "Maybe it's time we sit down with the league and all clubs try to refine the process.

"Continual improvement is important and certainly in this case we're in trouble for it, but someone else will be in the future.

"The consequence of this is two competition points which seems like an extremely harsh penalty given the circumstances."

Ryan agreed with Greenberg, claiming he never knew he was the 14th man on the field after being asked to return.

"With a few minutes to go, we were behind at the time and I got told by the trainers to go off," Ryan said.

"I had no idea what was happening on the other side of the field and got told to go back on the field by the trainer.

"It was just business as usual. That happens many, many times in a game so I had no idea what was happening."

Ayoub, who won't face any sanctions from the club if he is found to be the culprit, didn't want to discuss the incident yesterday.

NRL chief operating officer Graham Annesley rejected calls for an overhaul, claiming any changes to the system were impractical.

"Gates, boxes, the same side of the field ... any system that you can think of that requires the player coming off at the same point where the player goes on is going to result in a team playing with 12 temporarily, or the game being stopped until that interchange is affected.

"I would suggest to you most people would find those two options equally unattractive.

"There's absolutely nothing wrong with the system at all. It's not the first time a player has gone on without authority, but it's the first time we've had 14 players where a player has gone on from the far side of the field."

Bulldogs coach Kevin Moore said his main focus was to get the team prepared for Friday night's game against the Gold Coast at Skilled Stadium.

"It's happened. You can't change it so we've just got to get on with it," Moore said.

"We'll deal with the appeals process and do whatever we can there because from a fans' point of view we want to make sure we're showing that we're in there fighting."

* Manly chairman Scott Penn has conceded he and fellow co-owner Max Delmege might have to tip more money into the club if they are unsuccessful in appealing against a $100,000 fine from the NRL.

The league issued the club with a breach notice proposing a $100,000 fine for bringing the game into disrepute after several players misbehaved following the club's season launch.

Suspended fullback Brett Stewart will face Manly Local Court next month to answer a sexual assault charge while backrower Anthony Watmough was fined $10,000 for fighting with a club sponsor.

Penn has signed off on a letter signalling the club's intention to fight for a reduction in the fine.

"One-hundred-thousand dollars is a fairly steep penalty for any club to bear given the current financial world," Penn said.

"There's no guarantees from crowd numbers and the like, so to have $100,000 taken away before the first game is kicked off makes it pretty difficult.

"If we couldn't pick it up through other sources over the season, we would have to dip into our pocket for it."
 

jimmythehand

Juniors
Messages
2,071
that is a horribly slanted way of looking at it.

It could be seen as:

Player has a few too many v Team illegally fields 14 men when the game is on the line and helps to score the final try.

how exactly did it help to score the final try? Tell me which Panthers player marked up on Ryan? In fact tell me which Panthers player even saw Ryan on the field? Ryan had no effect on the try.

The Panthers defence was retreating and in such disarray that it's ridiculous to suggest they had to contend with another player to mark who was nowhere near the action. They weren't even marked up on the players that were in the action.
 

bobmar28

Bench
Messages
4,304
Panthers should get the points even if it was accidental. I don't know how much Ryan had an effect on the game winning try, but he would have had some effect since the defenders will try to mark every attacking player, so Ryan inadvertently took a defending player out of the play.
How about one point each?
 

skeepe

Immortal
Messages
48,315
how exactly did it help to score the final try? Tell me which Panthers player marked up on Ryan? In fact tell me which Panthers player even saw Ryan on the field? Ryan had no effect on the try.

The Panthers defence was retreating and in such disarray that it's ridiculous to suggest they had to contend with another player to mark who was nowhere near the action. They weren't even marked up on the players that were in the action.

It doesn't matter. They had 14 players on the field. That's all the law cares about.

Oh and for all those saying Penrith should get the points, what crack have you been smoking? This breach does NOT change the result of the game. The result of the game is Bulldogs 26 def. Panthers 24. The stripping of two points is totally unrelated to the result of the game - if the Bulldogs had lost, they still would have been stripped of the points. It just so happens that the penalty for fielding too many players is the same number of competition points as a win. There is absolutely no mechanism in place to give the points to the Panthers, because they lost the game.
 

Gaba

First Grade
Messages
8,197
It doesn't matter. They had 14 players on the field. That's all the law cares about.

Oh and for all those saying Penrith should get the points, what crack have you been smoking? This breach does NOT change the result of the game. The result of the game is Bulldogs 26 def. Panthers 24. The stripping of two points is totally unrelated to the result of the game - if the Bulldogs had lost, they still would have been stripped of the points. It just so happens that the penalty for fielding too many players is the same number of competition points as a win. There is absolutely no mechanism in place to give the points to the Panthers, because they lost the game.


Actually it does if this was a finals game instead of a replayed game, the bulldogs would be declared the losers and the panthers would be declared the winners, so why is it different to the finals and normal rounds, the nrl needs to make it the same for all games,

if the panthers would be classed the winners in the finals then they should get the 2 points in the normal rounds, if the bulldogs appeal is lost

Also another mistake the nrl gotten itself into for the finals, what happens if the bulldogs appeal was successful the appeal committee said there was no breach , then the dogs should stay as winners but the decision was already made for the panthers to go through
 
Last edited:

The Dodger

First Grade
Messages
6,065
It doesn't matter. They had 14 players on the field. That's all the law cares about.

Oh and for all those saying Penrith should get the points, what crack have you been smoking? This breach does NOT change the result of the game. The result of the game is Bulldogs 26 def. Panthers 24. The stripping of two points is totally unrelated to the result of the game - if the Bulldogs had lost, they still would have been stripped of the points. It just so happens that the penalty for fielding too many players is the same number of competition points as a win. There is absolutely no mechanism in place to give the points to the Panthers, because they lost the game.

i agree with skeepe.

the panthers defence line was shiit and regardless of whether the dogs had one less player, they were going to score.

also, why change the subbing process?
just because ryan wasn't bothered to run off on the right side of the field.

most players do, unless injured.

if it was that much of an issue, then more teams would be getting done for it.

how many clubs have been confused by this in the last decade?
2, 3 clubs?


on another point, i heard a conversation about how both teams have a bye on the same weekend and it was mentioned that both teams play then to see who gets the two points.

i disagree with it but i wanted to know what everyone else thought.
 
Messages
17,427
Actually it does if this was a finals game instead of a replayed game, the bulldogs would be declared the losers and the panthers would be declared the winners
Unconvinced, my main thought is that they would shut up about it and hope no-one notices.

if the panthers would be classed the winners in the finals then they should get the 2 points in the normal rounds, if the bulldogs appeal is lost
Panthers wont get any points. A losing team in this position never has.

Also another mistake the nrl gotten itself into for the finals, what happens if the bulldogs appeal was successful the appeal committee said there was no breach , then the dogs should stay as winners but the decision was already made for the panthers to go through
Either way the Bulldogs won so I'm guessing they'd go through but get fined or something...it's all guessing though.
 

skeepe

Immortal
Messages
48,315
Which points? they "lost"
They would have been fined. They would not have had points deducted if they lost the game.

I disagree, but I'm happy to be proven wrong.

My interpretation is that the penalty for fielding an extra man is 2 competition points, regardless of the result of the game in question.
 

Dogs Of War

Coach
Messages
12,721
also, why change the subbing process?
just because ryan wasn't bothered to run off on the right side of the field.

most players do, unless injured.

I do think they have a point in bringing it into line with other competitions (ARL/IRL rules).

It would take a little more of the confusion out of this in the heat of the moment. And rules can always be improved, as shown in this instance, it's only when they are broken that you review them to see if they can be improved.
 

Mr Saab

Referee
Messages
27,762
I disagree, but I'm happy to be proven wrong.

My interpretation is that the penalty for fielding an extra man is 2 competition points, regardless of the result of the game in question.

Never has a team who fielded an extra player and lost the game then lost 2 competition points.
You will be proven very wrong.
 

bartman

Immortal
Messages
41,022
Yep, a fine if you have 14 on the field and are the losing team.

And a fine and deduction of the points if you have 14 on the field and were the winning team.

Couldn't be simpler. Appeal and keeping the points should only be if the NRL officials were somehow at fault. Bad luck Bulldogs, bring on the next game.
 

big country

Juniors
Messages
1,319
with due respect i really dont know why this is still being discussed - there was a precedent set in 1988 when souths lost 2 points for having 13 (read :13 NOT 14) men on the ground, one of whom was an illegal 17 year old rookie who came on in the last 10 mins when souths had the game won 28-4 and at that stage were cruising into the finals...........for canterbury to have 14 men on the ground it's bye bye 2 points, end of story
 

The Dodger

First Grade
Messages
6,065
I do think they have a point in bringing it into line with other competitions (ARL/IRL rules).

It would take a little more of the confusion out of this in the heat of the moment. And rules can always be improved, as shown in this instance, it's only when they are broken that you review them to see if they can be improved.

from what i recall, most subs get done when the team is attacking and behind the line (unless injured)

there is nothing wrong with this process.

i don't see why they would change it.

creating a gate, such as the halfway line, will just be a hassle. if the team is attacking on the ten metre line, the player coming on would have to wait for the player running off, then run on the field and back down the ten metre line.

not a big difference, but i don't think the majority would agree with this, subbing right behind the line saves time.

again, this incident has only happened to 2 to 3 teams in the last ten years.
if it was confusing, then more teams would be getting done for it.
 

mickdo

Coach
Messages
17,355
I don't see why the rules need to be changed. As it stands, you have to hand over a gigantic card with a big fat number on it that Ray Charles could see from the moon. If the idiot trainers still can't figure out how that works then sack your trainers, don't blame the system.
 

Timmah

LeagueUnlimited News Editor
Staff member
Messages
100,987
Oi WTF, What the hell does Brett Stewart have to do with the Bulldogs having 14 on the field.
He has nothing to do with it.
After all, the thread is called 'Bulldogs 14 players'.
Why bring up Brett Stewart for?
That is just silly bra.
You'll find someone else brought it into it:
The bulldogs disregard for the image of the game just cost *insert club* a $1.5m sponsor deal. Oh wait, somebody has already used a line like that before... Who was it?
But you didn't bother reading that, did you?

Actually it does if this was a finals game instead of a replayed game, the bulldogs would be declared the losers and the panthers would be declared the winners, so why is it different to the finals and normal rounds, the nrl needs to make it the same for all games,

if the panthers would be classed the winners in the finals then they should get the 2 points in the normal rounds, if the bulldogs appeal is lost

Also another mistake the nrl gotten itself into for the finals, what happens if the bulldogs appeal was successful the appeal committee said there was no breach , then the dogs should stay as winners but the decision was already made for the panthers to go through
:lol: Stopped reading at "if". When you have to use baseless hypotheticals to prove your point, you've got a weak argument.
 

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