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Nrl plans for a 20 team comp

Gobsmacked

Bench
Messages
2,781
It's interesting to see how many compelling bids are out there, more than the 3 the NRL needs to get to 20 teams.

That really presents the question of whether the NRL sees more than 20 teams as the future - and if another phase of expansion happens, then how soon would it be after we get to 20.

I remember the last time we went to 20 teams (1995), all the talk from the ARL at the time was that there'd be a "bedding in" period after that expansion, no further expansion for a while.

That would've also given the ARL a chance to see if any teams (presumably Sydney clubs) would "hit the wall" and warrant relocation or demotion, so that an even bigger footprint could be accomplished while keeping the competition to just 20 teams.

But looking at places that didn't have teams in 1995, we now have a Melbourne team, probably a PNG team shortly & either an NZ 2 or 3rd Brisbane team (Possibly western Brisbane).. so even IF the situation arises that makes relocation a chance, there will probably be fewer viable destinations - Adelaide, maybe NZ, maybe Brisbane if Brisbane 3 isn't chosen and that's about it.. yeah?
Genuine expansion list imo:
1.Christchurch
2.Perth
3.PNG
4. Wellington
5. Ipswich
6. Adelaide
7. Melbourne 2
8. Sunshine Coast
9. Central Coast
10. Fiji
All those without question are 100% legitimate viable expansion options.
Questionable one's :
Auckland 2
Hamilton
Dunedin
Pasifika

An amazing amount of potential still lays in the northern hemisphere though, with the NRL invested into the Super league after we go to 20 teams could see an investment into club grants, a salary cap lift and expansion.
 

titoelcolombiano

First Grade
Messages
6,328
It's interesting to see how many compelling bids are out there, more than the 3 the NRL needs to get to 20 teams.

That really presents the question of whether the NRL sees more than 20 teams as the future - and if another phase of expansion happens, then how soon would it be after we get to 20.

I remember the last time we went to 20 teams (1995), all the talk from the ARL at the time was that there'd be a "bedding in" period after that expansion, no further expansion for a while.

That would've also given the ARL a chance to see if any teams (presumably Sydney clubs) would "hit the wall" and warrant relocation or demotion, so that an even bigger footprint could be accomplished while keeping the competition to just 20 teams.

But looking at places that didn't have teams in 1995, we now have a Melbourne team, probably a PNG team shortly & either an NZ 2 or 3rd Brisbane team (Possibly western Brisbane).. so even IF the situation arises that makes relocation a chance, there will probably be fewer viable destinations - Adelaide, maybe NZ, maybe Brisbane if Brisbane 3 isn't chosen and that's about it.. yeah?
Let's assume it's...

18. Western Bears
19. The Hunters
20. South Island Kea

We would still have some genuinely lucrative options to tap into...

The Jets
Adelaide
Wellington
Melbourne 2
Fiji (if there's some juicy Govt cash)
 

flippikat

First Grade
Messages
5,008
Let's assume it's...

18. Western Bears
19. The Hunters
20. South Island Kea

We would still have some genuinely lucrative options to tap into...

The Jets
Adelaide
Wellington
Melbourne 2
Fiji (if there's some juicy Govt cash)
Fair point, but is 24ish teams a feasible proposition in the long run? That's a lot of players, coaching talent, sponsors & fans to find.

Admittedly we won't hit that issue for another 10 years at least, as this expansion phase (teams 18-20) will be rolled-out sometime between 2027 & 2032.. but it's a question that needs to be pondered - exactly what is the optimal size - or MAXIMUM feasible size - of the NRL in the long term?

Do we need a period of "bedding in" 20 teams, and hoping that market forces spur a relocation or two from current Sydney teams (as was projected in the 1990s).. or do we start groundwork for teams 21 & 22 regardless?
 

titoelcolombiano

First Grade
Messages
6,328
Fair point, but is 24ish teams a feasible proposition in the long run? That's a lot of players, coaching talent, sponsors & fans to find.

Admittedly we won't hit that issue for another 10 years at least, as this expansion phase (teams 18-20) will be rolled-out sometime between 2027 & 2032.. but it's a question that needs to be pondered - exactly what is the optimal size - or MAXIMUM feasible size - of the NRL in the long term?

Do we need a period of "bedding in" 20 teams, and hoping that market forces spur a relocation or two from current Sydney teams (as was projected in the 1990s).. or do we start groundwork for teams 21 & 22 regardless?
Good questions

As far as players go, we as a game have recently implemented proper pipelines in NZ (warriors pathways), Melbourne and PNG. Add Perth and better academy setups in the Pacific and you have access to the talent we need.

Coaching is the real problem in today's game I think, not necessarily talent. I think the NRL could quickly change this if they got serious about it.

Sponsor and fans I'm not too concerned about because of the options I laid out, Perth, Adelaide, Wellington and Fiji all are new markets bringing new NRL fans (PNG to a lesser extent because they are already consuming the game in large numbers).

I would only bring Melbourne 2 in when the Storm are consistently selling out AAMI park and I would look to start building the fan base of a second team. Sure, they'll start averaging around 8k a season but you've just got to build them up slowly. The advantage a second Melbourne team would have (when the time is right), is that the Storm have done the hard yards breaking into the sporting psyche in down there (Storm are the most popular non-AFL team now), they have access to Victorian talent that wasn't available when the Storm started, they have access to a quality Stadium that wasn't available when the Storm started and they will have at least two marquee games to help support their crowd average in the rough first decade while they are trying to carve out their own fanbase; storm and warriors. It will be as tough as GWS is finding things in Western Sydney but will be a long-term project.

Bedding in is only required for markets where you are going back for a second and third dip (i.e. Ipswich and Melbourne 2) and potentially in NZ where you'd wait a while for Christchurch to gain traction in the national sporting landscape before introducing Wellington.

I'd do the whole thing over a period of 20 or 30 years adding a couple of teams each 5 years inline with the broadcast deal and as the NRL have already indicated, we'll eventually go to conferences to maximise rivalry matchups etc. The broadcast deal will be the key to it all though, provided we can keep getting increases from Aus and NZ TV, we will be able to keep growing the comp. 24 is probably a good place to pause though because you are then starting to run out of feasable markets and risk doing an AFL and getting desperate with things like Tassie and Darwin which don't really offer any commercial viability, let alone return.
 

flippikat

First Grade
Messages
5,008
Good questions

As far as players go, we as a game have recently implemented proper pipelines in NZ (warriors pathways), Melbourne and PNG. Add Perth and better academy setups in the Pacific and you have access to the talent we need.

Coaching is the real problem in today's game I think, not necessarily talent. I think the NRL could quickly change this if they got serious about it.
Snipped for brevity, but really can't find fault with your arguments - and it's refreshing to engage in some thoughtful speculation here instead of sitting on the sidelines observing the slanging-matches this subforum is particularly known for!

I think you make a great point about coaching being a pinch-point for expansion, and decent coaches can elevate journeyman players.
The current trend of clubs hiring assistants from currently successful clubs as head coaches - in the hope some magic will rub-off - is extremely hit & miss, so maybe we need something to bring through talent in coaching?

I think your thoughts on "cooling off"/bedding-in time makes sense too - not going back to SE Queensland for expansion so soon after the Dolphins are added, nor back to NZ hot on the heels of NZ 2 shouldn't preclude other locations (eg Adelaide) being explored & pursued.

Going for NZ 2 as part of this phase would be a good move, and by the time we look at teams 21 and 22 - maybe in the mid-late 2030s, another SEQ team could be worth considering if the existing teams are going OK.
 

Wb1234

Immortal
Messages
31,177
It's interesting to see how many compelling bids are out there, more than the 3 the NRL needs to get to 20 teams.

That really presents the question of whether the NRL sees more than 20 teams as the future - and if another phase of expansion happens, then how soon would it be after we get to 20.

I remember the last time we went to 20 teams (1995), all the talk from the ARL at the time was that there'd be a "bedding in" period after that expansion, no further expansion for a while.

That would've also given the ARL a chance to see if any teams (presumably Sydney clubs) would "hit the wall" and warrant relocation or demotion, so that an even bigger footprint could be accomplished while keeping the competition to just 20 teams.

But looking at places that didn't have teams in 1995, we now have a Melbourne team, probably a PNG team shortly & either an NZ 2 or 3rd Brisbane team (Possibly western Brisbane).. so even IF the situation arises that makes relocation a chance, there will probably be fewer viable destinations - Adelaide, maybe NZ, maybe Brisbane if Brisbane 3 isn't chosen and that's about it.. yeah?
24

even then who knows depending on how much money comes into the game

it depends on how successful the next 3 expansion teams are off the field and on it
 

jim_57

Moderator
Staff member
Messages
4,564
Snipped for brevity, but really can't find fault with your arguments - and it's refreshing to engage in some thoughtful speculation here instead of sitting on the sidelines observing the slanging-matches this subforum is particularly known for!

I think you make a great point about coaching being a pinch-point for expansion, and decent coaches can elevate journeyman players.
The current trend of clubs hiring assistants from currently successful clubs as head coaches - in the hope some magic will rub-off - is extremely hit & miss, so maybe we need something to bring through talent in coaching?

I think your thoughts on "cooling off"/bedding-in time makes sense too - not going back to SE Queensland for expansion so soon after the Dolphins are added, nor back to NZ hot on the heels of NZ 2 shouldn't preclude other locations (eg Adelaide) being explored & pursued.

Going for NZ 2 as part of this phase would be a good move, and by the time we look at teams 21 and 22 - maybe in the mid-late 2030s, another SEQ team could be worth considering if the existing teams are going OK.

Whilst it seems we’re in a rapid fire phase now, it’s only one admin change away from being back to having expansion off the table indefinitely. So yeh, I’m a bit hesitant to get too carried away, the gap between the last 2 teams was 16 years for example.

There will still be plenty of viable options on the table once we get to 20 which is great. Should keep this forum running at least even if it is another 16 years until team 21.
 

Perth Red

Post Whore
Messages
68,263
Its interesting how there has been so much talk about club 18 and 19 with two faves seemingly nailed on, yet very little on club 20. Are NRl going to shock us with a club 20 announcement at same time as the other two or hold off club 20 decision I wonder?

May come down to the strength of the other 7 bid submissions?
 
Messages
4,968
Strongly believe that Team #20/game #10 will be dependant on the next round of TV negotiations.

Team #18 and #19 will be announced pre negotiations. Broadcast stakeholders will ultimately weigh in on Team #20’s location and how much potential revenue proposed locations can pull in. Other factors like how much corporate and commercial support and/or appeal said locations and/or prospective team #20 franchise can pull in will be heavily factored into it as well. Pathways, infrastructure, systems all play critical parts too.

Alternatively this next round of TV negotiations should theoretically be the last round of traditional broadcasting negotiations. The game has been investigating costs to produce their own product and then on sell the product to the highest bidders. It’ll put a tonne of cash into the games pockets that’s otherwise lost due to Channel 9 and Foxtel for example needing to produce the product’s production that it airs.

Streaming companies in particular Apple are also circling. They will only be a small player during the next broadcast deal negotiations but the one after that is where they/streaming services will be the major player and that’s when the game will really be pushing HUGE pay days that make the last broadcast deal and/or potential next one look like chump change. Team #20 could well be jammed into this. Should line up with 2032-35.

Having an international competition is far more commercially appealing than a strictly national one. Part of why streaming services want a piece of action as they look to air live sports on their platforms.

Lots of moving pieces that might affect Team #20 and their intended introduction date.
 
Last edited:

flippikat

First Grade
Messages
5,008
Its interesting how there has been so much talk about club 18 and 19 with two faves seemingly nailed on, yet very little on club 20. Are NRl going to shock us with a club 20 announcement at same time as the other two or hold off club 20 decision I wonder?

May come down to the strength of the other 7 bid submissions?
Here's a left-field idea....

What if they add Perth & PNG in reasonably quick succession - say 2027 them 2028 as widely rumoured - pause and then add THREE TEAMS around 2031-35 (say, team 20 in 2031.. team 21 in 2033, team 22 in 2035) because theres 3 compelling business cases after Perth & PNG?

Then we'd be looking at a 21-round "everyone plays everyone else ONCE" fair competition, with a full break for rep footy/origin.
 

Gordie

Juniors
Messages
202
Its interesting how there has been so much talk about club 18 and 19 with two faves seemingly nailed on, yet very little on club 20. Are NRl going to shock us with a club 20 announcement at same time as the other two or hold off club 20 decision I wonder?

May come down to the strength of the other 7 bid submissions?
I’d be very surprised as PVL likes to play the potential bids of each other in order to extract as much as possible out of both the government and private investment.
 

Wb1234

Immortal
Messages
31,177
Strongly believe that Team #20/game #10 will be dependant on the next round of TV negotiations.

Team #18 and #19 will be announced pre negotiations. Broadcast stakeholders will ultimately weigh in on Team #20 location and how much potential revenue proposed locations can pull in. Other factors like how much corporate and commercial support locations and/or prospective #20 franchise can pull in will be heavily factored into it as well. Pathways, infrastructure, systems all play critical parts too.

Alternatively this next round of TV negotiations should theoretically be the last round of traditional broadcasting negotiations. The game has been investigating costs to produce their own product and then on sell the product to the highest bidders. It’ll put a tonne of cash into the games pockets that’s otherwise lost due to Channel 9 and Foxtel for example needing to produce the product’s production that it airs.

Streaming companies in particular Apple are also circling. They will only be a small player during the next broadcast deal negotiations but the one after that is where they/streaming services will be the major player and that’s when the game will really be pushing HUGE pay days that make the last broadcast deal and/or potential next one look like chump change. Team #20 could well be jammed into this. Should line up with 2032-35.

Having an international competition is far more commercially appealing than a strictly national one. Part of why streaming services want a piece of action as they look to air live sports on their platforms.

Lots of moving pieces that might affect Team #20 and their intended introduction date.

Next tv negotiations will involve the nz tv rights too hence nz2
 

Gordie

Juniors
Messages
202
Here's a left-field idea....

What if they add Perth & PNG in reasonably quick succession - say 2027 them 2028 as widely rumoured - pause and then add THREE TEAMS around 2031-35 (say, team 20 in 2031.. team 21 in 2033, team 22 in 2035) because theres 3 compelling business cases after Perth & PNG?

Then we'd be looking at a 21-round "everyone plays everyone else ONCE" fair competition, with a full break for rep footy/origin.
Would love that but can’t see it happening sadly.
 
Messages
4,968
Next tv negotiations will involve the nz tv rights too hence nz2
Yes but jumping from 8 games to sell straight into 10 might actually be detrimental to grabbing the actual value that it’s worth and can get. It’ll be easier and smarter to negotiate 9 games as that’s the next up above the current 8 games.

Game 10 will be worth more after the deal than before it. Might be the difference between $100m and $300m tbh.
 

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