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NRL Rd 24 2022 - General Non-Warriors Thread

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16,568
Interesting chat on 360 tonight

NAS, career 17 charges, 16 times pleaded guilty, 7 weeks suspended, this season 5 guilty charges and hasn’t missed a game. Most of the acts have intent such as the Egan incident

We then have cases like Finucane missing 3 weeks for an accidental head clash
Agree, horse shit he hasn't been suspended! Clear repat offender. NRL setting themselves up for future law suit with these fines vs suspensions!

You would love the talk of drafts that seems to be getting talked about more now!
Hard for teams to get off the bottom, but top teams/players will fight it as they getting/making the money!
 

Beavers Headgear

First Grade
Messages
8,731
I’m not big on the draft setup at all. It works well in American sport because they have a completely different setup with the high school and college system

League is tribal, and kids are in the club systems and come through Harold Matthews, SG Ball, Jersey Flegg, Reserve grade etc. One of the things that can keep people excited is watching a young guy come up through the grades at your club and give a bit of hope. If I use my mob as an example, the Trbojevic lads are Manly through and through, have grown up entrenched in the club, and a draft system takes away their opportunities to come through the ranks and play together eventually in the top grade

It is possible to get your shit together and make a run, the Cowboys have shown that this season.

where the game is really lacking is quality coaches, that’s the real issue. They come in with a cookie cutter idea of how they have to play, rather than fitting a style of play around the talent that they have available to them, and inevitably fitting their square pegs into the round holes doesn’t work. O’Brien summed it up a few weeks back with his “I’ve been an assistant for 4 grand finals, I know what it looks like”, sticking to a blueprint he thinks is the only way to do it
 

Scott

Bench
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3,745
The Cowboys are a great example of what CAN be done. It starts and ends with the attitudes of the players.
 

Penrose Warrior

First Grade
Messages
8,644
Yep, agree with Scott and Beaver. The draft is a terrible idea, our system is completely different to the American college/pro ranks where athletes are well accustomed to going away for college, and therefore for the pro ranks.
O’Brien summed it up a few weeks back with his “I’ve been an assistant for 4 grand finals, I know what it looks like”, sticking to a blueprint he thinks is the only way to do it
I think the biggest indicator to me of coaching performance is the man manager quality of said coach. No one can tell me Wayne Bennett knows how to unlock a game miles better than anyone, or that Craig Bellamy has a secret to defensive structures or whatever. That sort of IP flows freely throughout 16 clubs and everyone has access to it. The difference in the greats - the Bennetts, Bellamys, Clearys, is that they get the best out of their resources. Their players, their support staff, the club etc. They are consistent. They know how to motivate, consistently. They drive hard standards but can do enough cuddling to keep players on their side. The ones who can't do that, don't succeed.

That's why I've often felt like someone like Steve Hansen could come in and be a successful NRL coach - maybe not a head coach, but as a facilitator/manager. He would bring in the people he needed around him to make it work.
 
Messages
3,751
Yep, agree with Scott and Beaver. The draft is a terrible idea, our system is completely different to the American college/pro ranks where athletes are well accustomed to going away for college, and therefore for the pro ranks.

I think the biggest indicator to me of coaching performance is the man manager quality of said coach. No one can tell me Wayne Bennett knows how to unlock a game miles better than anyone, or that Craig Bellamy has a secret to defensive structures or whatever. That sort of IP flows freely throughout 16 clubs and everyone has access to it. The difference in the greats - the Bennetts, Bellamys, Clearys, is that they get the best out of their resources. Their players, their support staff, the club etc. They are consistent. They know how to motivate, consistently. They drive hard standards but can do enough cuddling to keep players on their side. The ones who can't do that, don't succeed.

That's why I've often felt like someone like Steve Hansen could come in and be a successful NRL coach - maybe not a head coach, but as a facilitator/manager. He would bring in the people he needed around him to make it work.
Great discussion.

Culture is so critical. The other thing the great clubs do (and only really Easts and Storm are in this category at this moment on my opinion, although I hope the Panthers can get there) is they have great successions planning. They let the right people go at the right time and bring in players at the time that gives them the best chance to succeed.
 

Blair

Coach
Messages
10,218
That's why I've often felt like someone like Steve Hansen could come in and be a successful NRL coach - maybe not a head coach, but as a facilitator/manager. He would bring in the people he needed around him to make it work.
This reminded me of John Hart, who was with us during our 'within a whisker of a premiership' year.

John Hart, Auckland rugby through and through, but took a punt with us.
 

Beavers Headgear

First Grade
Messages
8,731
Yep, agree with Scott and Beaver. The draft is a terrible idea, our system is completely different to the American college/pro ranks where athletes are well accustomed to going away for college, and therefore for the pro ranks.

I think the biggest indicator to me of coaching performance is the man manager quality of said coach. No one can tell me Wayne Bennett knows how to unlock a game miles better than anyone, or that Craig Bellamy has a secret to defensive structures or whatever. That sort of IP flows freely throughout 16 clubs and everyone has access to it. The difference in the greats - the Bennetts, Bellamys, Clearys, is that they get the best out of their resources. Their players, their support staff, the club etc. They are consistent. They know how to motivate, consistently. They drive hard standards but can do enough cuddling to keep players on their side. The ones who can't do that, don't succeed.

That's why I've often felt like someone like Steve Hansen could come in and be a successful NRL coach - maybe not a head coach, but as a facilitator/manager. He would bring in the people he needed around him to make it work.
Yep that’s correct, it’s reading the players, assessing their ability then giving them a role that compliments both their strengths and the spine. Bellamy has it, Bennett has it, Robinson probably does but we only ever really see quality in their lineup, Cleary has it at numerous clubs, and Hasler has it

There are numerous examples of that over the years with Melbourne. The successful decade of Manly was hugely aided by getting outcasts from other sides to fill the holes and get them playing above their level, names like Robertson, L’Estrange, Rose, Hall etc.
 
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16,568
We compare it to the American football, but AFL does it, do they have a different system to league juniors etc?

While I agree coaching talent seems thin, some can produce premierships at one club and not at others, Wayne at Newcastle, Madge at Tigers, Des at Dogs.

The top talent is pooling with the top clubs for understanding, the cap isn't working that well to even out the competition, which it was designed to do.
 

Penrose Warrior

First Grade
Messages
8,644
We compare it to the American football, but AFL does it, do they have a different system to league juniors etc?

While I agree coaching talent seems thin, some can produce premierships at one club and not at others, Wayne at Newcastle, Madge at Tigers, Des at Dogs.

The top talent is pooling with the top clubs for understanding, the cap isn't working that well to even out the competition, which it was designed to do.
Good point. I lived in Melbourne and I don't exactly know the system, but I know at secondary school level it is very school-based. That would differ from Sydney RL where the emphasis is on SG Ball, Harold Matthews, the old U20s, state under age representation etc? I don't remember there ever being any emphasis put on where a player came from club-wise in AFL.

Thing is, a draft probably would work, in theory...but you'd get so much pushback from it. Imagine if a Sydney golden child was sent to NZ? Let's say a young Brad Fittler, instead of playing with the Panthers he's come through with, he gets drafted to us. The media would rip it to shreds. Fans wouldn't like it. And we'd get a situation where a player would sign a 1-year deal then go back. No one gets anything out of that. I just think it wouldn't have a chance of sticking.

Unless they could do it regionally? Ie Sydney teams have first access to Sydney talent, us to the NZ talent etc, and further down the draft opens up? I dunno how that would work, but just as a thought.
 

Penrose Warrior

First Grade
Messages
8,644
Great discussion.

Culture is so critical. The other thing the great clubs do (and only really Easts and Storm are in this category at this moment on my opinion, although I hope the Panthers can get there) is they have great successions planning. They let the right people go at the right time and bring in players at the time that gives them the best chance to succeed.
Absolutely. Culture is EVERYTHING. That's in any business, any environment, any team, anything you want to look at. I find it incredible at times when you look at an organisation and you see how closely it mirrors the person at the top - be it a CEO, coach, principal at a school etc. You could have tens, hundreds, thousands of people below that person(s) but those values, behaviours, and overall culture is nearly always mirrored from the head honcho.

Which is why no matter what you do in the NRL with caps, drafts etc, you won't arrest the problem of an uneven competition until the leadership ability spreads itself more evenly. Which it does in the NFL/NBA/MLB more so, because of the deep systems and cash in those sports where professionalism runs right through all levels - a coach can come into the pro ranks from college football or basketball and be successful, and there's so much exposure for them to build their skills. Not so in the NRL, nor the AFL. The AFL has a draft, their comp is slightly more even than ours (not sure if premiership winner results bear that out) but the sides that are the most consistent - Sydney, Geelong, Richmond, Collingwood, not so much now but Hawthorn previously - are the best resourced and most professional.
 

Penrose Warrior

First Grade
Messages
8,644
This reminded me of John Hart, who was with us during our 'within a whisker of a premiership' year.

John Hart, Auckland rugby through and through, but took a punt with us.
Exactly, I was going to use this example, too. He saw the quality in Ivan and if Wayne Scurrah had an ounce of nous, he would have backed in the superior knowledge of Hart to keep him in NZ. But as we all know, Wayne + Eric knew better, and 11 years later we're still in the toilet.
 

Beavers Headgear

First Grade
Messages
8,731
While I agree coaching talent seems thin, some can produce premierships at one club and not at others, Wayne at Newcastle, Madge at Tigers, Des at Dogs.
Madge I would throw in the regimented crew. Des at the Dogs is probably a perfect example, he turned up in 2012, saw what he had, and took a team with J Reynolds and K Keating as the halves to the grand final using forwards as his playmakers. Even at Newcastle Wayne found a prelim final
 
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16,568
The other option to stop the good team paying unders is a system of registering an offer to the NRL. So an example.
Munster is off contract and Dolphins offer 1.2million a season via the NRL. Now Storm or other teams have to match that or Dolphin's get him.

Storm should get some dispensation/discount if the player has come thru juniors or been at the club for X amount of years, say 10%?

Not sure if it works better than a draft?

Will have to study the AFL draft, how many years they get players for?
 
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