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NRL vs NFL debate

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ozhawk66

Juniors
Messages
1,324
Everlovin' Antichrist said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozhawk66
I actually moved to Doonside from Wattle Grove. So, what's your prob with the 'few and far in between' comment?



Few and far between....


Read closer......it's few and far IN between.


Like your brain cells.

Looks like your cells can't recognize basic 5/6 sentence, sentences.



You have a command of the English language that would be right at home in the Amazon jungles. That is unless you run into someone who actually speaks English.


Yet, you still feel the need to point out the loser concept, thinking you're winning. Like I said, if you have to keep pointing it out, then your not doing it........your not W I N N I N G!


Quote:
Originally Posted by ozhawk66
It's hard telling, coming from you.



That's because my IQ isn't in single digits like yours.


No, yours is in the room temp IQ range. I've said and proven this, before.




Quote:
Originally Posted by ozhawk66
Redneck? Why can't you show us when I claimed phopah to be faux pas? Or, are you glossing over another hard post.



Yep, redneck.

And if you're prepared to hang your arse out to be kicked, I'll kick it....


Why don't you kick it by proving it? I've been seeing a pattern with you for some time, now.....when you are confronted, you flame and or digress with topic at hand. I just confronted you. If I'm a red neck, prove it so, by using your own quotes I used against you. Come on, be a man.........





What makes it funnier is that you spent half of today trying to say it was a double entendre and that you were the only person in the Universe who got the joke.... LOLOLOLOLOLOL



The funnier part is that you are easily amused and don't recognize on how to use the basic dash, in proper spelling in the term/word double-entendre. Idiot.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ozhawk66
Then quote me directly cause I don't know where I made this phopah amongst all my postings.



Now, you tell me what you were actually trying to say.
.



Why? I already knew what I said that apparently went over your head.
 

Bomber

Bench
Messages
4,103
Bugger 'Finding Nemo'.....we've got

FINDING PHOPAH

Contestant #1 - Sinister Mind's Guild
http://www.sinistermindsguild.com/player.aspx?pid=98640

A descendent of the great Erudite priest Phandim, Phopah is still upholding the beliefs of some of the most powerful priest of the old lands. Sense the days of his childhood he has had a hated for orcs. He lost his father early on to the siege of Freeport. In those days the troops were scarce and many children lost their fathers to the battles. Most of the priests were lost. He took comfort in training with the warriors as an adolescent. The bond with the trolls and ogres grew. They became very close with the greatest admiration for each other. The training seemed to have paid off. His travels have sent him in the direction to a group of riffraff that adopted him “Sinister Minds”. He has drawn blood now with some of the most powerful allies he has ever meet and hopes that in some why they all can find there way home someday. Today Phopah still trains with these warriors and some still hunt with him but the one thing he still wants deep from in his heart is to find his roots, where he came from, and what his people were like. To this day he roams the lands for something, some sort of clue that where he came from is still out there somewhere

Contestant #2 - Horse Classifieds Text Ad - 'Phopah'
http://www.freehorseads.com/class/text.php?adnum=57647

If you're looking for your future dressage partner, here he is. This colt is awesome. Will geld before sale. He has a great attitude and just wants to please. He has the floating lippizan gaits. He is a future star. He will mature 16+. He has had everything done to him short of backing. His price will go up with training. He's going to one of those horses you just get on and ride. I will back him next spring if not sold.

Contestant #3 - Pho-Pah, Makers of Collector's Horses
http://www.tillingtonbears.co.uk/phopah.htm

Too tiny to be real pandas, these cute faux panda minatures have hearts the size of giants. Each one is a different colour combination and is named after a note in the tonic solfa scale, so you can make beautiful music together.

Phopah2.jpg
 

ozhawk66

Juniors
Messages
1,324
Bomber said:
I can tell you lots of stuff about football - rugby league football, that is.

You've told me almost nothing I didn't know already about that other version of football.



Esplain?
 

NPK

Bench
Messages
4,670
ozhawk66 said:
Yet, you still feel the need to point out the loser concept, thinking you're winning. Like I said, if you have to keep pointing it out, then your not doing it........your not W I N N I N G!

:lol::lol:

Oh my God, you're a moron.
 

Bomber

Bench
Messages
4,103
ozhawk66 said:

What is there to explain? Do I really have to spell it out, word by word?

You've

Told

Me

Almost

Nothing

I

Didn't

Know

Already

About

That

Other

Version

Of

Football.
 

redVgirl

Juniors
Messages
636
jesus this thread is insane! and they say girls are bitchy. for the love of god, retract your claws boys.


this ozhawk bloke is obviously just baiting us league fans, i dont know why u all even bothered to reply. ah but here i go anyway.... whoever said NFL represents america as a whole, i agree. its flashy and over the top, all to hide what is essentially a mind numbingly boring game. the only way it can be made exciting is in movies when they edit the hell out the footage, placing sequences together so it makes the game actually look exciting. when in reality it takes half a day and they have their little breaks constantly. i understand though, it must get bloody hot under those layers of padding...not mention the cumbersome helmet! :rolleyes:

every american that i know thats come out to australia has absolutely loved league. i took them all to games and they thought it was 10 times more exciting/tougher/better than NFL. hehe i remember the girls were like 'omg they play without helmets??? wont they get hurt??' and they couldnt believe it when they saw de vere getting his head stapled up live on national tv :lol:

lol anyway who really cares. most yanks dont even know what rugby league us, and its their loss. its really not about whos better and whos worse. they are different games with different attriubutes. we dont have to justify to anyone else why why love league so much.
 

ozhawk66

Juniors
Messages
1,324
Bomber said:
What is there to explain? Do I really have to spell it out, word by word?

You've

Told

Me

Almost

Nothing

I

Didn't

Know

Already

About

That

Other

Version

Of

Football.



Another time when I'm taken out of context. It's the only thing people like you have.


I'll esplain.......


You like smaller, slower and weaker footy players. You are used to it. You're used too seeing 17/18 year old kids playing with men.


You have a hard time comprehending that NFL athletes are among the fastest, and most agile players playing a one-one-one violent scrum-fest.


You have a hard time comprehending a so called fat slob, clocking a 4.85 second 40 yard time - weighing in at 140+ kg - motoring down to bash someonoe n the ground. Just too get a couple of yards.


You have a hard time comprehending a #7 jersey, weighing in at 215 lbs and by far being the fastest player on the league field. Including so called fast players like Bott.

You also have a hard time comprehending fat slobs, running through basic running/tackling drills that is the game of rugby/league. And that's not even a full on practice to these guys.

You league guys are so short-sighted and see fat.......but don't comprehend physical violence, from the first play of a scrum.


I'll, tell you what........



lets see what reaction we get from league fans about this sad story in the NFL......



In order to do so, one has too recognize the violent game.........the hurtin game, that is the NFL.........


This is the sad, but violent part of the game....:(




By Greg Garber
ESPN.com

Mike Webster never made it to his son's 10th birthday party in Lodi, Wis. Lying in a dark room at the Budgetel Inn, some 20 minutes away in Madison, he was bed-bound in a haze of pain and narcotics, a bucket of vomit by his side.


i_websterphoto_i.jpg

When his playing days were over, Mike Webster barely resembled the man they called Iron Mike.


Webster was often laced with a varying, numbing cocktail of medications: Ritalin or Dexedrine to keep him calm. Paxil to ease anxiety. Prozac to ward off depression. Klonopin to prevent seizures. Vicodin or Ultram or Darvocet or Lorcet, in various combinations, to subdue the general ache. And Eldepryl, commonly prescribed to patients who suffer from Parkinson's disease.


After 17 seasons in the National Football League, Webster had lost any semblance of control over his once-invincible body. His brain showed signs of dementia. His head throbbed constantly. He suffered from significant hearing loss. Three lumbar vertebrae and two cervical vertebrae ached from frayed and herniated discs. A chronically damaged right heel caused him to limp. His right shoulder was sore from a torn rotator cuff. His right elbow grew stiff from once being dislocated. His knees, the cartilage in them all but gone, creaked from years of bone grinding against bone. His knuckles were scarred and swollen. His fingers bent gruesomely wayward.

"He was too sick to come to my birthday party. He didn't even call me and I was mad," Garrett Webster remembered recently. "Now, I understand that there was something wrong."

Ten years later, there is only a faint strain of resentment in his voice. His father, the celebrated Hall of Fame center for the Pittsburgh Steelers, is gone now. Still, the mental snapshots, those harrowing memories, persist of the stoic man they called Iron Mike:



  • Desperate for a few moments of peace from the acute pain, repeatedly stunning himself, sometimes a dozen times, into unconsciousness with a black Taser gun. "The only way he could get to sleep," said Garrett.

    A Steeler's Melting PointMike Webster walked away from the NFL with four Super Bowl rings. Walked away with more than an assortment of chronic aches and pains. Walked away and found out years later that he was mentally disabled. In a five-part series, ESPN.com explores the after-football life of the former Pittsburgh Steelers great, from his odyssey of bizarre behavior and failed business ventures to his eventual homelessness and untimely death.

    Monday: A tormented soul
    Tuesday: Blood and guts
    Wednesday: Man on the moon
    Thursday: Wandering through the fog
    Friday: Sifting the ashes



  • Glassy-eyed like a punch-drunk boxer, huddled alone, staring into space night after night at the Amtrak station in downtown Pittsburgh. "Living on potato chips and dry cereal," said Joe Gordon, a Steelers employee.


  • A formidable man, at 6-foot-2 and 250 pounds, who sometimes forgot to eat for days -- sleeping in his battered, black Chevy S-10 pickup truck, a garbage bag duct-taped over the missing window. "Sometimes he didn't seem to care," said Sunny Jani, the primary caregiver the last six years of his life.


  • Writing wandering journals in a cramped, earnest hand so convoluted in their spare eloquence that, upon reading them in his lucid moments, he would be moved to weep. "You had absolutely no idea what was going through his mind," said Colin, his oldest son.


  • The powerfully proud former athlete, anguished and curled up in a fetal position for three or four days, puzzling over his life, contemplating suicide and, in later years, placing those sad, rambling calls, almost daily in the later years, to friends and family when he couldn't find his way home. "All I see is trees," he'd say apologetically, almost in a whisper.



a_websterfuneral_hi.jpg

The man inside the coffin wasn't the same person, at least mentally, as the man in the pictures.


When Webster died in Pittsburgh on Sept, 24, 2002, at the age of 50, the official cause was heart failure. That was absurd, of course. Few players showed more heart than Webster in his marvelous 17-year NFL career. In the end, his body and brain left him a defeated man.


Webster's Steelers won four Super Bowls in six seasons from 1974-79 and rank as one of the league's greatest teams. There has been a football renaissance in Pittsburgh, where this year's Steelers finished the regular season with only one loss and reached the AFC championship game. They won't be going to Jacksonville, but with quarterback Ben Roethlisberger no longer a rookie, running back Jerome "The Bus" Bettis contemplating another season and the core of a savage defense back, square-jawed Bill Cowher may be coaching his team in Detroit this time next year.

Nine players from the Steelers' 1970s dynasty are enshrined in the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Eight of them -- Terry Bradshaw, Franco Harris, Jack Lambert, Joe Greene, Jack Ham, Mel Blount, Lynn Swann and John Stallworth -- reveled in the franchise's return to glory. Their missing comrade is a footnote worth considering. Amid the fervor and fanaticism that enveloped the Steel City this season is Webster's reminder of the daunting price the game can sometimes extract.

Sometime later this year a collision is likely to occur in a Baltimore courtroom. Civil Action No. WDQ-04-cv-1606, the Estate of Michael L. Webster v. The Bert Bell/Pete Rozelle NFL Player Retirement Plan and The NFL Player Supplemental Disability Plan, is working its way through Maryland's U.S. District Court.

The NFL already has paid Webster and his estate more than $600,000 -- $100,020 annually for the last three years of his life, plus a $309,230 retroactive payment made in December to cover his disability from 1996-99. Webster's surviving family -- ex-wife Pamela, 53, and four children, Brooke, 27; Colin, 25; Garrett, 20; and Hillary, 16 -- wants more. A lawsuit directed by Jani, the administrator of Webster's estate, seeks an additional $1.142 million in disability payments, plus legal fees and expenses, going back to his retirement after the 1990 season. The suit argues that Webster was mentally disabled when he left the game and that by denying Webster "active football" disability the NFL's pension board committed an "abuse of discretion."

"This isn't a knee that became inflamed after an old injury -- this is about Mike Webster's brain," said Cyril Smith, co-counsel for the plaintiffs. "He was hit in the head thousands of times and suffered many concussions at a time when the dangers weren't widely recognized. The evidence is clear that he was completely disabled by March of 1991."

As evidence of Webster's diminished cognitive command from 1991-96, the family cites the loss of assets over a period of several years that once amounted to an estimated $2 million to $3 million or more.

"Are you telling me that 17 seasons in the NFL didn't factor into his bad business decisions?" Garrett Webster said. "World-famous athletes, at the end of their careers, people say you're stupid and lazy. But that's what football does to you."



g_sbtd_hi.jpg

Mike Webster (52) helped the Steelers enjoy four Super Bowl victories in the 1970s.


The NFL contends there is no empirical evidence that Webster was disabled before 1996, noting that no doctor who assessed Webster in the original case saw him until after 1996. Regarding his competence, the NFL points to the same business dealings referred to by the estate.


"It's a very sad case," said Doug Ell, the lead attorney for the NFL retirement plan. "He was a great, great player. He tried to run all these businesses, all these companies and, ultimately, it's not clear that any of them succeeded. The Board can't say a guy is permanently disabled just because his businesses failed."

This much is certain: Webster's life and career were, in so many ways, a worst-case scenario for physical and emotional well-being. With a family history of mental illness and heart disease, Webster played a compromising position in an exceedingly violent game for an extended period of time. He competed in an era when the rules governing contact were far more liberal than they are today and the development of safer equipment, particularly helmets, was embryonic. Webster's toughness, a quality that compelled him to play in 177 consecutive games, exacerbated his injuries, just as experimentation with anabolic steroids might have led to later liver, kidney and heart ailments. His immense pride worked powerfully against him; in a city noted for the exquisite steel bridges that span its three rivers, Webster resisted when friends and former teammates reached out to help.

Some people will see the suit as a referendum on the NFL and its treatment of former players who are irreparably injured in their service to the league. Others view the case as a transparent, after-the-fact money grab.

"The kids deserve it," Jani said, "because of what their dad went through. They basically sacrificed their father to this game. If somebody told them, 'We'll take care of your dad [but] we gave him a spaghetti brain and we'll give you a million dollars.' They would say, 'No, thanks. I'd rather have my dad.' "

This is one of the few things all four children agree on.

"Mike's story needs to be told," Pam Webster said from her home in Lodi, where she lives with three of her four children. "I don't want this man to die in vain.

"They're gladiators. When the game is over, these guys have to go homeAnd when it's over, a lot of them don't have a home to go to."
 

ozhawk66

Juniors
Messages
1,324
Bomber said:
What is there to explain? Do I really have to spell it out, word by word?

You've

Told

Me

Almost

Nothing

I

Didn't

Know

Already

About

That

Other

Version

Of

Football.




Updated: Jan. 26, 2005
Man on the moon







With a pending court case involving the NFL retirement plan and Mike Webster, ESPN.com explores the life and tragic death of the former Steelers center. Third in a five-part series:


By Greg Garber
ESPN.com

When Neil Armstrong walked on the moon 35 years ago, he became the first man to set foot in another world. That giant leap for mankind was a high-water mark for humanity and, by implication, nothing in the celebrated astronaut's life would ever approach the magnitude of that moment.



i_websterhair_i.jpg

Mike Webster was a champion, but when his playing days were over, he struggled to find success in the business world.


So it often is with players in the National Football League, for those who live in that world, even briefly, sometimes struggle when they are forced to leave it.

Very few -- former Bills quarterback Jack Kemp (U.S. Congress), former Vikings defensive tackle Alan Page (Minnesota state supreme court justice), and former Raiders offensive lineman Gene Upshaw (director of the NFL players' union) are exceptions -- manage to turn their NFL experience into a stepping stone to a higher calling. To be a physical specimen of the head-turning order, to make vastly more money than ordinary people do and to live an appropriately out-sized lifestyle, to play in arenas filled with 60,000 adoring fanatics, to exist in an environment where people want to name their children after you -- well, that can skew even a healthy sense of perspective.

"When you're an elite athlete and you reach a certain level of success, you have a different set of rules," said Garrett Webster, the youngest son of Mike Webster, the center of the Pittsburgh Steelers' dynasty of the 1970s. "He had people to handle all of those things that need to be handled. Then, when you retire from the NFL, you're done. Just like that.

"For 17 years, you have somewhere to be, every minute of every day. The coach tells you what to do and all the details are taken care of. All of a sudden, you're on your own."

In February 1988, when the Steelers left Webster unprotected under the NFL's Plan B system, the league's first stab at free agency, Webster retired. He was the last active member of that select group of Steelers to play in all four Super Bowl victories. Five days later, the Kansas City Chiefs announced he had been hired as an assistant offensive line coach. Some years earlier, Webster had left the Steelers for two days to join Forrest Gregg's coaching staff with the Cincinnati Bengals. His coaching career with the Chiefs didn't last much longer. With the blessing of the team's hierarchy, he played center in Kansas City for two more years before retiring for good after the 1990 season.

"It's been 17 wonderful years," Webster said at the time. "But one thing you learn in this game is reality. It's time."

A Steeler's Melting PointMike Webster walked away from the NFL with four Super Bowl rings. Walked away with more than an assortment of chronic aches and pains. Walked away and found out years later that he was mentally disabled. In a five-part series, ESPN.com explores the after-football life of the former Pittsburgh Steelers great, from his odyssey of bizarre behavior and failed business ventures to his eventual homelessness and untimely death.

Monday: A tormented soul
Tuesday: Blood and guts
Wednesday: Man on the moon
Thursday: Wandering through the fog
Friday: Sifting the ashes


Reality, at least initially, was a pleasant prospect. Two months shy of his 39th birthday, Webster contemplated his off-field options with typical enthusiasm. Family and friends say he considered coaching, broadcasting, a career as a chiropractor and a stockbroker, as well as various business opportunities. He didn't make the seven-figure salaries that today's players enjoy, but football afforded him a comfortable living. His first signing bonus, in 1974, was only $8,000 -- his ex-wife Pam said he spent it all in three months on three cars -- but he made $400,000 in his last season with the Chiefs, apparently invested wisely and conservatively, and had in excess of $2 million in assets, including three annuities that provided a steady, if unspectacular income through the early 1990s.

Kansas City offered Webster another assistant coaching job in July 1991, but he left the position a few weeks later when NBC offered him a broadcasting trial. He was assigned as an analyst for two preseason games, but when NBC followed up with a modest contract offer for a limited schedule Webster passed on his first regular-season assignment, saying it conflicted with his family's move from the Kansas City area to Wisconsin.

Feeling adrift, Pam had convinced Mike to relocate the family to the place where she grew up, Lodi, Wis. They moved into a large Victorian house, where the four children had plenty of space. But by then the symptoms that Pam first noticed in Pittsburgh began to manifest themselves on a more regular basis. Mail, bags and bags of it, piled up. Bills weren't paid. According to records, Webster stopped filing tax returns in 1992 and didn't for the last 11 years of his life. This, from the man who knew the tax laws in every state when he was a player. The electricity was turned off. Sometimes spare change was scrounged together to buy macaroni and cheese or toilet paper. Eighteen months after the Websters moved in, the bank foreclosed on the house.



webster6_il.jpg

Andy Manis
"We were living in so much stress we didn't know what stress was," said Pam Webster.


"It was like living in a tornado," Pam said. "A counselor told us that we were living in so much stress we didn't know what stress was. Mike would leave for days at a time and I didn't understand that he was sick. I just figured he was mad at me.

"One thing I found out later was that after football, 60 percent of marriages fail. There was no structure, nobody handling the details. It was horrible."

The couple separated in 1992 and Pam would initiate unsuccessful attempts to divorce Mike in 1994 and again in 1996. Finally, six months before he died, Pam officially divorced her husband of 27 years.

So, where did all the money go?

"I still don't know," Pam said. "We were set for life. We had $90,000 in college funds (invested in tax-sheltered zero coupon bonds) for each of the kids. But then the money would disappear, and we tried to follow it. People took advantage of him. He always blamed the attorneys.

"When your mind isn't working straight you aren't going to make good decisions."

Joe Gordon worked for the Steelers for 29 years, most notably as the team's director of communications. He had dealt with Webster often in his later years with the Steelers and worried about his post-NFL life.

"It was obvious to me that he was naïve in business," Gordon said from his Pittsburgh home. "He was too inexperienced to recognize that too much of this was pie-in-the-sky. In football, if you were tough enough you could overcome adversity. Unfortunately, that didn't transfer to his life after football."

After Webster began petitioning the NFL for disability benefits in 1999, the league commissioned a thorough background check of him for throughout the 1990s. Of particular interest were his business dealings. The report, completed in January 2001, details a tangled web of bad judgment and failed ventures:



  • In 1990, Webster was the CEO and treasurer of a Pennsylvania business known as Pro Snappers Inc., which no longer exists.
  • He listed himself as an employee of Distinctively Lazer, a graphic printing company in Pennsylvania, in a 1992 loan application with PNC Bank.
    a_webster52_hi.jpg

    Webster was a mainstay in the Steelers' line for 15 seasons, but had at least eight jobs over a four-year span after retiring from the NFL.

  • In 1992, he was an investor in Terra Firma Development Trust, a Pittsburgh real estate company.
  • Webster Asset Management Trust was formed by Webster in 1993, with a capital contribution of $230,000, but soon passed into nonexistence.
  • That year, Webster listed Olympia Steele Sports Management of Pittsburgh as his employer on a hospital admission form.
  • Later in 1993, Webster was among several names on an application for a business known as "Tins, Totes and Tees." During this time, he carried a business card with the title of director of operations for the Lestini Group.
  • He was listed as a director of the National Steroid Research Center in 1994 and later that year formed Webster Business Enterprises, Ltd., which also failed.
  • The Chiefs, partly in sympathy, offered Webster a job as a strength and conditioning coach in 1994, but like so many things it never worked out.

In the wake of these business failures were several lawsuits and, as a result, Webster's annuities, sacrificed as collateral for hundreds of thousands of dollars in bank loans, were seized. After 1994, his only income was a modest compensation for signing autographs at card shows and speaking engagements. In 1996, the Internal Revenue Service filed a tax lien for $251,015.

"It is without question that Mr. Webster attempted to work at any number of businesses after his career as a player ended, mostly in the capacity as investor," investigator Thomas A. Keating wrote in his report to the NFL. "I was unable to find any evidence that any of them succeeded."

The separation with Pam in 1992 was another damaging blow to Webster's sense of family and his sense of self. It was instrumental in establishing a vagabond existence for the former center. For the next five years, from 1993 to 1997, he would not have a permanent address. Homeless was now a word that described Iron Mike Webster. He spent time in Kansas City, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, and rural parts of West Virginia and Wisconsin. Sometimes he stayed with friends, but more often he stayed in cheap hotels -- he was a regular at the Red Roof in Robinson, Pa. When he didn't have the cash, he slept in his car, a gas-guzzling late 1970s Cadillac and, later, a Chevy S-10 pickup truck. He'd fall asleep wherever it was warm and people didn't disturb him -- the airport, the bus station, the train depot.

With his brain deteriorating from the hits suffered during a 17-year NFL career, Webster suffered from dementia and was often disoriented. The multiple medications he took for pain -- since he had no health insurance after he retired, he paid for these out of pocket -- certainly had a muddling effect. On numerous occasions, he would call his family from somewhere between Pittsburgh and Wisconsin, a daunting 900-mile, 17-hour ride to say he wasn't going to make it.

"That was the standing family joke," Pam said. "Where's Dad this time, Ohio? The police in [nearby] Columbus [Wis.] would recognize him at the train station and call to tell us he was OK."



w_websteraction_i.jpg

On the field, Mike Webster stood tall. Off it, periods of despair caused him to curl up in the fetal position for days.


But, clearly, he wasn't.

In September 1996, Webster was examined by Dr. Jerry Carter of Allegheny General Hospital, who produced a comprehensive psychological profile. Webster, Carter said, constantly dwelled on his crumbling financial situation and an inability to help his family.

"He has periods of despair during which he feels hopeless," Carter wrote. "He states he thinks about suicide every day, although he doesn't think he would ever act on it. He states this is because God would not want him to do that and he can't help his family if he is dead. During some of his periods of despair, he states he curls up into a fetal position and may remain in this position off and on for three to four days.

"Often during these times, his mind races, trying to find solutions for the problems he has, although he is unable to find any solutions."

A few weeks before this analysis, Webster was discovered in this catatonic state in the Amtrak station in downtown Pittsburgh. The manager recognized Webster and immediately called the Steelers. Gordon took the call.

"He told me Mike had spent the entire night in the station," Gordon said. "Since it was only a mile from Three Rivers Stadium, I told him I'd be right over."

Gordon spoke briefly with Steelers owner Dan Rooney, grabbed $200 out of petty cash and raced to the station. He found Webster sitting in the waiting room, surrounded by an array of papers, brochures and photographs of sports stars like Muhammad Ali, Arnold Palmer and Mickey Mantle. He excitedly told Gordon he had obtained a distributorship for promotional pieces for a sports memorabilia company.

"I asked him where he was staying," Gordon remembered. "He said he had a place, the Red Roof Inn, but I said, 'Why don't we put you up in the Hilton for the weekend?' That was the hotel we used, and we made a reservation for him and I gave him the money and dropped him off."

Webster stayed there for three months.

Eventually, in November, Gordon persuaded him to check out. Sometimes the daily phone and room service charges were more than the cost of the room itself. The Steelers quietly paid the "significant" bill, according to Gordon, and Iron Mike Webster, with the weather turning colder, walked back onto the street.
 

redVgirl

Juniors
Messages
636
um....are u proud of the fact that NFL players have ended up with mush for brains? how is that a good thing? and whats with the 'esplain'? mate, ur a weird one.
 

ozhawk66

Juniors
Messages
1,324
The devastating blowBy Greg Garber
ESPN.com


In the time of Mike Webster, concussions probably were no less frequent than they are today -- it's just that they were not often recognized. Despite thousands and thousands of collisions in his 17-year NFL career, the Hall of Fame center was never diagnosed with a concussion.



Troy
Aikman
Wayne
ChrebetToday, the NFL has become, relatively speaking, a place on enlightenment. Quarterbacks Steve Young and Troy Aikman were forced to retire in recent years after they sustained multiple concussions. New York Jets wide receiver Wayne Chrebet, who has suffered at least five concussions in his college and professional career, has been weighing his career options.

"We have a terrifying health emergency here that no one seems to respond to," Leigh Steinberg, agent to Aikman and Young, told the Boston Globe in 2003. "It's one more indication that the danger of concussion needs serious action."

According to a recent study, there were 497 brain injury-related fatalities in American football from 1945-99 -- 75 percent of them to high school players. None occurred on an NFL field, but the impacts in a typical game can register up to 124 times the force of gravity. This explains why, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, there are approximately 300,000 sports-related concussions sustained each year in the United States.

Concussion study results
Study examined incidents of brain trauma for NFL players from 1996-2001. By position, per 100 plays:
High Risk
Defensive backs 18.2
Kicking unit 16.6
Wide receivers 11.9
Running backs 8.8
Quarterbacks 7.9
Tight ends 4.6
Moderate Risk
Defensive linemen 8.5
Offensive linemen 7.1
Linebackers 6.6
Kick returners 2.8
Low Risk
Return unit 4.2
Punter 0.9
Place-kicker 0.1
Holder 0.1
Dr. Elliot Pellman was a physician on the New York Jets medical staff when wide receiver Al Toon, suffering from post-concussion syndrome, abruptly retired in 1992.

"At the end of the day as a physician, you have to ask yourself, 'Did I do everything I could?' In my original work with Al Toon, I was confused and frustrated that I didn't know as much as I should," Pellman told ESPN.com last year. "My quiet pledge to Al, and myself, was to start getting some answers."

Pellman, the chairman of the NFL's Mild Traumatic Brain Injury Committee, cited a $2 million study that examined brain injuries from 1996-2001. In those six seasons there were 787 reported cases of mild traumatic brain injury, which works out to a rate of 0.41 concussions per game. Defensive backs (18.2 percent) were the players most likely to sustain the injuries, followed by members of the kicking teams (16.6 percent) and wide receivers (11.9 percent). Quarterbacks suffered 7.9 percent of those concussions.

"From my vantage point," Pellman said, "this study was unique for any sports league. The players will be the ones who benefit the most and, hopefully, it will sprinkle down to the colleges and the high schools."
 

ozhawk66

Juniors
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Blood and guts

With a pending court case involving the NFL retirement plan and Mike Webster, ESPN.com explores the life and tragic death of the former Steelers center. Second in a five-part series:


By Greg Garber
ESPN.com

Merv Corning, the Southern California portrait artist, has been commissioned by the NFL to paint more than 300 portraits since 1967. None is more haunting, particularly in retrospect, than his vision of Mike Webster.



Merv Corning's rendering of Mike Webster.Flanked by four gleaming Super Bowl trophies, Webster sits on the bench, his gnarled hands holding a towel. His thin blond hair, white at the temples, matted with sweat. Deep-set brown eyes, too small for his large, round and nobly scarred face, engage with jarring intensity. His black and gold jersey, grass-stained and bloody, a splattering on the bridge of his misshapen Roman nose for effect.

"He hated it," said Webster's oldest son, Colin, who lives just north of Pittsburgh. "He said, 'Every time they paint me, they put blood all over me. Why do they have to do that?' "

Somehow, blood and the implied guts seemed appropriate. It was the way he played the game.

Webster was born on March 18, 1952 in Tomahawk, Wis., a swashbuckling address of origin fit for a man who cut a swath as wide as his hero, John Wayne. He was an All-Big Ten center at the University of Wisconsin, but at 6-foot-2, 225 pounds, there were questions about his relatively spare frame in the NFL. He was drafted in the fifth round of the 1974 draft by the Pittsburgh Steelers -- Lynn Swann, Jack Lambert and John Stallworth were taken ahead of him, giving the Steelers four future Hall of Famers among their first five picks -- and his manic work ethic amazed his coaching staff and teammates alike.



Undersized by NFL standards, Mike Webster turned to steroids to bulk up after his college playing days were over at Wisconsin.It was a discipline born of insecurity. Webster did not consider himself a great athlete, but believed he had to work harder than most players. His self-esteem was sadly but not inexplicably lacking, for he came from an alarmingly dysfunctional family. His father was an overbearing disciplinarian, and one doctor noted that Webster grew up with "episodes of marked physical abuse." His parents, both described by Webster as alcoholics, divorced when he was 10, and the family house burned down a year later. His younger brother, Joseph, spent more than a dozen years in prison for a sex-related offense.

So Webster hit the weights hard and in a few years he had packed another 35 pounds of muscle. Webster also began to display the effects of anabolic steroids -- which had yet to be banned by the NFL -- including the acne, the radical mood swings, the thinning hair. Later, he would matter-of-factly tell a physician, Charles Cobb, that he had experimented with steroids in his 20s. He and teammates Jon Kolb, Steve Courson and Steve Furness were the core of a group that slammed the iron with abandon in the basement of the Red Bull Inn in nearby McMurray. Although Webster publicly denied it, steroid references can be found several times in his voluminous medical records.

"And if I did," he would tell friends, "it was legal back then."

In the days before today's form of free agency, even future Hall of Famers had to put in their time on the bench. Webster played behind Ray Mansfield for two seasons before becoming a regular in 1976. He started 14 games, six at guard and eight at center, and went on to start at center for each game of the next nine seasons. Going back to his rookie season, Webster played in a remarkable 177 consecutive games despite a variety of injuries that would have taken less committed players out of the lineup. Only a dislocated elbow ended the streak in 1986. He was ruthlessly diligent; how many NFL players had a blocking sled in their front yard?

A Steeler's Melting Point
Mike Webster walked away from the NFL with four Super Bowl rings. Walked away with more than an assortment of chronic aches and pains. Walked away and found out years later that he was mentally disabled. In a five-part series, ESPN.com explores the after-football life of the former Pittsburgh Steelers great, from his odyssey of bizarre behavior and failed business ventures to his eventual homelessness and untimely death.

Monday: A tormented soul
Tuesday: Blood and guts
Wednesday: Man on the moon
Thursday: Wandering through the fog
Friday: Sifting the ashes


The position of center requires, above all, intelligence; remembering the snap count is the least of the position's worries. The center assesses the defense and calls out the blocking assignments. Steelers quarterback Terry Bradshaw admitted at Webster's 1997 enshrinement at the Pro Football Hall of Fame that his center called as many plays at the line of scrimmage as he did. Webster, a devoted student of film before it was fashionable, sometimes based his calls on the subtle positioning of defenders' feet or shoulders. Line play is a function of leverage and Webster, as head coach Chuck Noll said on many occasions, was almost technically perfect. He played with precision that belied his monstrous biceps -- set off by trademark short sleeves -- and a barely controlled fury.

"I can see him now, sprinting out of the huddle to the line of scrimmage before everyone else," said Harry Carson, the former New York Giants linebacker, sitting in his home in leafy Bergen County, N.J. "To me, that's what it was all about. He'd come out so pumped up, you'd get pumped up right along with him. I looked at Mike as being the leader of that group -- everything revolved around him."

Webster, the veritable epicenter of one of history's great teams, played in Pittsburgh for 15 seasons and appeared in 220 games, still franchise records. Including two seasons in Kansas City, 1989 and 1990, Webster played in 245 career games, the most ever by a center at the time of his retirement. Offensive linemen generate few statistics, but consider this: Webster was voted to nine Pro Bowls. When he entered the Hall of Fame, it was the highest total ever for an offensive lineman and second only to Bob Lilly's league-record 11. In 1994, Webster was named to the NFL's 75th anniversary team, a group more elite than those with brass busts in Canton. The Steelers, meanwhile, won four Super Bowls in a span of six seasons. Webster was a captain of three of those championship teams.

Those honors, however, came with a caveat, as Webster came to realize in his later seasons. There would be a necessary physical price to pay for his longevity; mental toughness would congeal into physical frailty. Because of his place in history, Webster was particularly vulnerable. The savage head-slap, as practiced by Deacon Jones and others, officially had been outlawed by then, but that didn't stop defensive linemen from using the maneuver in the '70s and '80s. Helmets, thin plastic shells by today's enlightened standards, did little to absorb the shock. And, because his hands were occupied when snapping the ball, Webster sometimes had a difficult time warding off those initial hits.



The wear and tear of a 17-year NFL career showed on Mike Webster's swollen hands.When he was finished, Webster had broken most of his fingers, suffered permanent damage to five vertebrae, and effectively ruined his knees, right shoulder and right heel. More troubling were the constant headaches that began to dog him in his last few seasons with the Steelers. The record books dutifully note his 245 regular-season games, but there were nearly 100 more, taking his 19 playoff games and more than 75 preseason games into account. Factor in the grueling training camps in Latrobe, Pa., and practices throughout the season, and it's probable that Webster endured more than 25,000 violent collisions.

Webster's oldest son, Colin, tells the story of the doctor, who, upon examining an MRI of Webster's, asked if he had been in a car accident.

"Yeah," the old center said, "about 350,000 car accidents."

Despite this, Webster was never treated by team doctors for a concussion, according to medical records submitted in the case. The Steelers' trainers, too, note he never complained of concussion symptoms. Still, it is probable, based on discussions with doctors and former players, that Webster suffered a significant number of head injuries during his career that today would be classified as concussions.

Webster's other son, Garrett, references Oliver Stone's NFL opus, "Any Given Sunday." Al Pacino, in the role of coach Tony D'Amato, is lecturing James Woods, who plays Dr. Harvey Mandrake.

"Pacino tells Woods to stop worrying so much about injuries," Garrett said. "He tells him, 'You cannot take away an athlete's confidence in his body. When you take that away, you steal his heart.'



With Mike Webster (52) paving the way, the Steelers handed the Cowboys a 35-31 defeat in Super Bowl XIII."There was an unwritten rule in the NFL -- if you can play, under any circumstances, you play."

Webster played through the pain and, almost certainly, through the debilitating effects of post-concussion syndrome, the same condition that hastened the retirement of Carson in 1988, New York Jets wide receiver Al Toon in 1992 and former Steelers running back Merril Hoge in 1994. Today, NFL doctors will tell you, there still is much they do not understand about the effects of brain trauma. In the '80s, they knew next to nothing.

The Steelers and Giants met 13 times in preseason and regular-season games when Webster and Carson played. Carson, a middle linebacker, locked up with Webster many times.

"I was one of the hardest hitters in the league," Carson said. "I was willing to stick it up in there and deliver a massive shot to the head with my forearm. I can't tell you how many times I did that to Mike. When he passed away, I was saddened. I thought perhaps what I did might have contributed to the neurological problems that he had. But Mike would not blame me. That's just the way it was.

"I got post-concussion syndrome, too," Carson said. "I got mine. It's an occupational hazard that's part of the game."

Pam Webster, contemplating the hindsight of an 18-year marriage that began on a blind date in college and ended six months before Webster's death, said there were signs that something was wrong in the mid-1980s, a good five seasons before the end of his career.

"Small things," she said. "Anger at inappropriate times, a sense of disorganization, personality changes with no warning, getting lost, getting easily distracted. He poured his heart and his soul into the game of football, but ... "

But he was slowly, literally, losing his mind.
 

redVgirl

Juniors
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636
so now we are deciding who has the better game on account of brain injuries? mate you are one sick bastard. this is freakin me OUT.
 

ozhawk66

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redVgirl said:
um....are u proud of the fact that NFL players have ended up with mush for brains? how is that a good thing? and whats with the 'esplain'? mate, ur a weird one.



It's not a good thing. The sad part, is that's a part of the game.



If you don't understand the esplain, part, I can't help you. Nor do I want too. And I very seldom say that.
 

ozhawk66

Juniors
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redVgirl said:
so now we are deciding who has the better game on account of brain injuries? mate you are one sick bastard. this is freakin me OUT.



Read further...........on how the family deals with it.
 

Bazal

Post Whore
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101,147
My god, if you wanna use injuries as evidence, I have had two knee reconstructions after tearing every single ligament in my right knee in a tackle. My left ankle is rooted for good as well after snapping ligaments and my achilles in a tackle. I have a pin in my right tib/fib from snapping my leg clean in two in the same manner Scott Prince did. I'm turning 20 in 5 months. Just because people get injured, and these injuries lead to later complications, it doesn't mean a damned thing and you know it. Christ, by your logic Andrew Johns is the toughest bastard in the world.
 

redVgirl

Juniors
Messages
636
i agree with you bazal. and i also think that using other peoples suffering as bragging rights is extremely distasteful.
 

Bomber

Bench
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4,103
"Hey dude"

"Dude"

"What's happening?"

"Not much.....oh, actually, I've got to fill out this form."

"Give me a look........ah, physical education. You've got to choose what sport you're going to play in the afternoons."

"It's pretty difficult to decide actually.....I'm not sure if I want to play football. I mean, I don't think I'm cut out for it at all."

"Nah, you should. It's a great contact sport."

"Really?"

"Oh f**k yes. What other sport in the world can you get severe injuries, even when you're wearing more protective gear than you would in the army."

"Um....."

"What other sport in the world can you have a half-an-hour break in between action? Perfect for eating another whole chicken if you're on the defensive line."

"I love chicken....."

"Of course you do, you fat mother f**ker. This sport is perfect for you"

"What about the side effects?"

"What side effects? The concussions? The brain injuries? What kerfuffle. Don't let a little thing like a lifetime migrane hold you back. Just think of the glory.....and the chicken.......actually, f**k the glory..........more chicken, more coke, more steroids......come on, Bubba T. Flubber, we're going to make a Hall of Fame defensive end out of you yet!"
 

Bazal

Post Whore
Messages
101,147
redVgirl said:
i agree with you bazal. and i also think that using other peoples suffering as bragging rights is extremely distasteful.

Exactly. Injuries are a part of the game, but to use them in a childish attempt to win an argument that's going nowhere fast is in poor taste.
 
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