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NRL wants two conference comp

Pippen94

Juniors
Messages
444
You failed to comment on the fact Sydney has grown around 20% in the last 15 years with seemingly zero growth in NRL club support? Doesn't really matter how quickly the city is growing if the new comers aren't interested in RL.

Well all top rated games have occurred during that time so clearly there has been an increase in interest. Also ignoring Foxtel & streaming doing record numbers this year & game more profitable than ever.
 

Pippen94

Juniors
Messages
444
It probably is, but it's the number one problem facing our game and will lead to our demise unless we address it. Nine NRL teams in Sydney haven't been able to stop one AwFuL club from becoming the biggest team in town, so it's stupid to think everything will be fine if we keep with the status quo. Up until a decade ago there was just one AwFuL club in Sydney, yet fumbleball grew and RL declined at the grassroots level. It proves that throwing money at 16 NRL clubs, while the grassroots game in Sydney and Brisbane is left wither away on the vine, is hurting our game as much, if not more, than the Super League War. If we cannot get kids to play and watch the game then we'll end up like French RL.

Australian Rugby Union was booming 20 years ago and focused all its attention on propping up the professional game, to the detriment of the bottom tier. Look where it is now. That's our fate unless we address the problem. We might need to change the rules of the game to attract more people to play it at all levels if we wish to remain a popular spectactor sport. We can't keep pretending that the decline in participation isn't causing long term problems.

What is connection between grassroots & eliminating Sydney teams?! Will moving Tigers to Perth help large player catchment in south west Sydney??
Teams in other areas seem to struggle more like Titans & Newcastle. Maybe we should dump them to boast junior numbers??
I don't think you've thought this through
 
Messages
3,389
You failed to comment on the fact Sydney has grown around 20% in the last 15 years with seemingly zero growth in NRL club support? Doesn't really matter how quickly the city is growing if the new comers aren't interested in RL.
That's why I brought up participation and funding at the grassroots level. The game might be stronger having less teams in the NRL with a reduced salary cap so that more money can be invested on promotion and development. Train and hire more development officers to run school clinics at every school at least once a year, provide free registration for kids up until the afe od 14, run more promotional events in public to establish good will and have advertisement banners all over town so people know when each game is on.
 
Messages
3,389
What is connection between grassroots & eliminating Sydney teams?! Will moving Tigers to Perth help large player catchment in south west Sydney??
Teams in other areas seem to struggle more like Titans & Newcastle. Maybe we should dump them to boast junior numbers??
I don't think you've thought this through
Maybe I've got it wrong. It wouldn't be the first time and it won't be the last. :D

I think it would make more sense to have 6 or 7 Sydney clubs, strategically placed so that they have at least 500k potential fans in their catchment, preferrably more, so that they can increase their odds of devloping a large enough fanbase that'll generate the sort of revenue needed to make our game less reliant on pokies and broadcast deals. Cancel culture is coming after everything and everyone, so it wouldn't surprise me if the mob got pokies banned at some stage. When we don't need the broadcasters to keep our clubs alive then we will be in a position to put games on at fan friendly times so more kids can watch it.

I get that Sydney is the most prestigious wnd important city in Australia, and I say that as a Queenslander, but I don't think the RL community in Sydney is large enough to support 9 teams. It's my belief that some teams are too close together and cannibalising each other as a result, which makes them vulnerable and prevents them from growing into strong teams that can appeal to people unaccustomed to the game. If we decongested oversaturated areas like Southern Sydney and South-Western Sydney then the remaining clubs could reign supreme and become heavyweights, instead of being down the ladder most of the time and fighting for TV exposure.

Less Sydney teams needing assistance from ARLC HQ means more money can be spent running school clinics, running promotional events, placing advertising around every nook and cranny of the city and buying up infrastructure in prime location so that the game is more accessible to people.
 
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Perth Red

Immortal
Messages
42,768
Well all top rated games have occurred during that time so clearly there has been an increase in interest. Also ignoring Foxtel & streaming doing record numbers this year & game more profitable than ever.

isnt that due to growth in melbourne audiences?
 

mistertaylor

Juniors
Messages
401
2 Conference Model for 2023 (based on 16 existing NRL teams plus 2x Expansion teams)

1) rank all 9 "Sydney" teams based on aggregate competition points from the 2021 and 2022 seasons.
2) rank all 7 remaining teams similarly.
3) allocate teams to PROVAN CONFERENCE as follows:
* SYD teams 1, 3, 7 and 9
* Non SYD teams 2, 4, 6, 8
* Expansion team 1
4) allocate remaining NRL teams plus Expansion 2 to SUMMONS CONFERENCE
5) formulate 25 round draw

Use the same system from 2024 season onwards with the following changes to steps 3 and 4:
3) allocate teams to PROVAN CONFERENCE as follows:
* SYD teams 1, 3, 5, 7 and 9
* Non SYD teams 2, 4, 6, 8
4) allocate remaining NRL teams to SUMMONS CONFERENCE

Pros:
* Rewards the top ranked SYD team with an extra home game in Sydney.
* Fairly distributes SYD and NonSYD teams across the 2 conferences
 
Messages
3,389
2 Conference Model for 2023 (based on 16 existing NRL teams plus 2x Expansion teams)

1) rank all 9 "Sydney" teams based on aggregate competition points from the 2021 and 2022 seasons.
2) rank all 7 remaining teams similarly.
3) allocate teams to PROVAN CONFERENCE as follows:
* SYD teams 1, 3, 7 and 9
* Non SYD teams 2, 4, 6, 8
* Expansion team 1
4) allocate remaining NRL teams plus Expansion 2 to SUMMONS CONFERENCE
5) formulate 25 round draw

Use the same system from 2024 season onwards with the following changes to steps 3 and 4:
3) allocate teams to PROVAN CONFERENCE as follows:
* SYD teams 1, 3, 5, 7 and 9
* Non SYD teams 2, 4, 6, 8
4) allocate remaining NRL teams to SUMMONS CONFERENCE

Pros:
* Rewards the top ranked SYD team with an extra home game in Sydney.
* Fairly distributes SYD and NonSYD teams across the 2 conferences
Put Broncos with Melbourne and North Queensland so the entire country can laugh as Storm flog them twice by 50 points and Cowboys eliminate them in the finals, like we always do. That'll get Sydney people interested.
 

Pippen94

Juniors
Messages
444
Maybe I've got it wrong. It wouldn't be the first time and it won't be the last. :D

I think it would make more sense to have 6 or 7 Sydney clubs, strategically placed so that they have at least 500k potential fans in their catchment, preferrably more, so that they can increase their odds of devloping a large enough fanbase that'll generate the sort of revenue needed to make our game less reliant on pokies and broadcast deals. Cancel culture is coming after everything and everyone, so it wouldn't surprise me if the mob got pokies banned at some stage. When we don't need the broadcasters to keep our clubs alive then we will be in a position to put games on at fan friendly times so more kids can watch it.

I get that Sydney is the most prestigious wnd important city in Australia, and I say that as a Queenslander, but I don't think the RL community in Sydney is large enough to support 9 teams. It's my belief that some teams are too close together and cannibalising each other as a result, which makes them vulnerable and prevents them from growing into strong teams that can appeal to people unaccustomed to the game. If we decongested oversaturated areas like Southern Sydney and South-Western Sydney then the remaining clubs could reign supreme and become heavyweights, instead of being down the ladder most of the time and fighting for TV exposure.

Less Sydney teams needing assistance from ARLC HQ means more money can be spent running school clinics, running promotional events, placing advertising around every nook and cranny of the city and buying up infrastructure in prime location so that the game is more accessible to people.

One thing has nothing to do with other. I've already pointed out regional clubs struggle more than apparently over crowded Sydney. Reducing Sydney teams doesn't mean the remaining clubs in the city will be stable as it all comes down to management & being stable means nothing if team doesn't help increase value of league overall.

Moving or scraping teams will have inverse affect as big fan bases are the reason the game has big broadcast deal & driving off fans will change how much fox (or maybe whoever is next) are willing to pay.

You want more money for grassroots then that is maximizing revenue which conference idea certainly falls into.
 
Messages
3,389
One thing has nothing to do with other. I've already pointed out regional clubs struggle more than apparently over crowded Sydney. Reducing Sydney teams doesn't mean the remaining clubs in the city will be stable as it all comes down to management & being stable means nothing if team doesn't help increase value of league overall.

Moving or scraping teams will have inverse affect as big fan bases are the reason the game has big broadcast deal & driving off fans will change how much fox (or maybe whoever is next) are willing to pay.

You want more money for grassroots then that is maximizing revenue which conference idea certainly falls into.
The problem with RL revenue is no matter how much more is generated, the RLPA and NRL clubs put their hand out demanding it's all spent on them so they can piss it up a wall. If the TV deal was $10b then the RLPA and clubs would go on strike if it wasn't put into their bank accounts. The grassroots wouldn't see much of it. Front office at the ARLC would increase their own salaries and hire a whole lot of numpties who do nothing but sit around at a desk in a suit and drive a fancy BMW.

Shane Richardson made a good point about revenue. If the salary cap was just $8m, instead of sitting just below $10m, then over the 5 year span of the TV deal each club would receive $10m less to pay their players, which equates to a saving of $160m. Imagine what the ARLC could do for community RL and promoting the game in the streets and on TV with that sort od money?

I would reduce the annual grant to just cover the salary cap, drop the salary cap to $9m and let natural attrition sort out the strong from the weak.

We need to identify 4 or 5 Sydney clubs that can become juggernauts like the Broncos.

If there's no rationalisation and we want all of Sydney's prime real estate to be covered then this would be the teams and branding I'd use.

North Sydney Sea Eagles
Parramatta Eels
South Sydney Rabbitohs
Sydney Roosters
Western Sydney Tigers

Sydney is one of the world's premier cities. Its name value alone has the potential to bring money into the game, but only if clubs are smart enough to use it. Parramatta is developing a strong CBD and has its own world class stadium with a strong fanbase, so they're worth investing in and promoting.

That leaves Dragons, Bulldogs, Sharks and Panthers in the next tier of clubs. They will either find out a way to remain relevant and become powerhouses in their own right, or they will wither away and die like so many companies did when they didn't adapt to a changing environment. It might be harsh, but you don't get to be strong without working your guts out and using logic over emotion. Storm are where they are because Bellamy doesn't baby his players. Broncos are a joke because they sat on their arse for years thinking the cream would gravitate to them because they're the mighty Brisbane. Their fall from grace is proof that we need to be smart, diligent, adapt to an ever changing landscape and evolve if we want to survive and thrive.
 

Pippen94

Juniors
Messages
444
The problem with RL revenue is no matter how much more is generated, the RLPA and NRL clubs put their hand out demanding it's all spent on them so they can piss it up a wall. If the TV deal was $10b then the RLPA and clubs would go on strike if it wasn't put into their bank accounts. The grassroots wouldn't see much of it. Front office at the ARLC would increase their own salaries and hire a whole lot of numpties who do nothing but sit around at a desk in a suit and drive a fancy BMW.

Shane Richardson made a good point about revenue. If the salary cap was just $8m, instead of sitting just below $10m, then over the 5 year span of the TV deal each club would receive $10m less to pay their players, which equates to a saving of $160m. Imagine what the ARLC could do for community RL and promoting the game in the streets and on TV with that sort od money?

I would reduce the annual grant to just cover the salary cap, drop the salary cap to $9m and let natural attrition sort out the strong from the weak.

We need to identify 4 or 5 Sydney clubs that can become juggernauts like the Broncos.

If there's no rationalisation and we want all of Sydney's prime real estate to be covered then this would be the teams and branding I'd use.

North Sydney Sea Eagles
Parramatta Eels
South Sydney Rabbitohs
Sydney Roosters
Western Sydney Tigers

Sydney is one of the world's premier cities. Its name value alone has the potential to bring money into the game, but only if clubs are smart enough to use it. Parramatta is developing a strong CBD and has its own world class stadium with a strong fanbase, so they're worth investing in and promoting.

That leaves Dragons, Bulldogs, Sharks and Panthers in the next tier of clubs. They will either find out a way to remain relevant and become powerhouses in their own right, or they will wither away and die like so many companies did when they didn't adapt to a changing environment. It might be harsh, but you don't get to be strong without working your guts out and using logic over emotion. Storm are where they are because Bellamy doesn't baby his players. Broncos are a joke because they sat on their arse for years thinking the cream would gravitate to them because they're the mighty Brisbane. Their fall from grace is proof that we need to be smart, diligent, adapt to an ever changing landscape and evolve if we want to survive and thrive.

No, you haven't established how removing fans of biggest brands helps build revenue.
Phil Gould spoke about allocating money generated from conferences to grassroots which seems like a better idea than shafting the reason NRL is in such a lucrative position.

When you talk about relocation remember South Melbourne & Fitzroy were tiny suburbs with small fan bases compared to other teams. A lot of the teams you mention represent some of the fastest growing areas in country.
 

Perth Red

Immortal
Messages
42,768
No, you haven't established how removing fans of biggest brands helps build revenue.
Phil Gould spoke about allocating money generated from conferences to grassroots which seems like a better idea than shafting the reason NRL is in such a lucrative position.

When you talk about relocation remember South Melbourne & Fitzroy were tiny suburbs with small fan bases compared to other teams. A lot of the teams you mention represent some of the fastest growing areas in country.

Are the clubs in those areas growing though? Population growth means nothing if the new populous aren't following the sport and supporting the club. Sydney has had a 20% population growth in relatively recent times but clubs have had zero. Maybe they are all WA,SA and Victorians moving to Sydney lol. Would explain why AFL is so popular there.

Removing fans is only beneficial if it frees up room for a new club to come in that will generate more fans than those replaced. But for the umpteenth time it is only going to happen if a club goes bust and cant find a new owner and there is zero sign of that happening. The bigger question is how do we grow on what we have.
 

Pippen94

Juniors
Messages
444
Are the clubs in those areas growing though? Population growth means nothing if the new populous aren't following the sport and supporting the club. Sydney has had a 20% population growth in relatively recent times but clubs have had zero. Maybe they are all WA,SA and Victorians moving to Sydney lol. Would explain why AFL is so popular there.

Removing fans is only beneficial if it frees up room for a new club to come in that will generate more fans than those replaced. But for the umpteenth time it is only going to happen if a club goes bust and cant find a new owner and there is zero sign of that happening. The bigger question is how do we grow on what we have.

You're running rings around your own argument; afl ppl won't watch NRL but you want to put team in afl city where Friday game rated 2k?!

How many fans have storm created in Melbourne?! You reckon fox want to replace Tigers fans for those who follow storm?!

NRL has increased eyeballs & revenue, while fox & streaming are at record levels... but no growth.
 
Messages
3,389
No, you haven't established how removing fans of biggest brands helps build revenue.
Phil Gould spoke about allocating money generated from conferences to grassroots which seems like a better idea than shafting the reason NRL is in such a lucrative position.

When you talk about relocation remember South Melbourne & Fitzroy were tiny suburbs with small fan bases compared to other teams. A lot of the teams you mention represent some of the fastest growing areas in country.
If I was running Cronulla, then a team like Sharks would drop the "Cronulla" part from their branding as it's just a tiny suburb in the Sutherland Shire, and rebrand as Southern Sydney Sharks, taking in Georges River Council, Bayside Council, Sutherland Shire and Wollongong. A team taking in an area that large would have a better chance of lobbying government to build a boutique stadium thats central to 3 LGAs.

Dragons would also benefit from being the Southern Sydney Dragons. It would be nice to relocate them permanently to Wollongong as the Illawarra Dragons so they can be a truly merged team between the Dragons and Steelers, but that would make them weaker, not stronger so it is out of the question.

It cannot be stressed enough that the population of Georges River Council, Bayside Council and Sutherland Shire is only 560k, yet the 3 LGAs have 2 professional RL clubs competing for fans, sponsors and TV coverage. It's a recipe for disaster and no matter how fans try to cut it with emotionally-driven rhetoric, both clubs are living hand to mouth because there isn't enough RL fans among those 560k residents to support 2 clubs that need to generate up to $30m each to be truly strong. Dragons are probably better placed to survive long-term as they take in Georges River Council, Bayside Council and Wollongong, but there's the matter of Sutherland separating them and having its own team. Wollongong was never able to financially support a team of its own. I am convinced that if one of these teams doesn't relocate then both of them could end up going bust.

What we do know about Sydney's RL community is many of them are bandwagon supporters who come out of the closet when their team has a chance of winning a premiership, but when they're at the foot of the ladder they stop attending games and don't watch the games on TV. That's not a sustainable supporter base, and with 9 teams in the metro area, there's bound to be 2 or 3 at the foot of the ladder each year. If you keep the teams with the least bandwagon fans and relocate the poorer teams with smaller fanbases then you'll probably only have one Sydney team at the foot of the ladder each year, which will improve TV ratings and attendances.

I'm still not sold on the Titans to be honest, as their TV ratings stink. I know they've had limited success over the last decade, but so has the Tigers, yet the Tigers still have a sustainable fanbase that watches them in strong numbers. Maybe the NRL should give the Titans licence to the Brisbane Firehawks, rebrand as East Coast Firehawks and bring in the Moreton Bay Dolphins as the 17th team. Firehawks could split their games between Lang Park and Robina Stadium. I know Titans fans will hate me for saying this, but if East Coast Firehawks draw higher TV ratings and better attendances then they're a bigger asset to the competition.
 
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Perth Red

Immortal
Messages
42,768
You're running rings around your own argument; afl ppl won't watch NRL but you want to put team in afl city where Friday game rated 2k?!

How many fans have storm created in Melbourne?! You reckon fox want to replace Tigers fans for those who follow storm?!

NRL has increased eyeballs & revenue, while fox & streaming are at record levels... but no growth.

Not sure if you’ve ever left Sydney but it may come as a surprise to you that a cities population is made up of long time natives and recent immigrants. I’d say of the 39k people who turned out to the nrl double header in perth that a good chink of them were RL fans who have moved to Perth lol

Storm are in the top 4 clubs for memberships and attendances. Clubs who’ve had a hundred years and are in the games heartland should be ashamed that Storm are so far ahead if them in fanbase!
 
Messages
3,389
Not sure if you’ve ever left Sydney but it may come as a surprise to you that a cities population is made up of long time natives and recent immigrants. I’d say of the 39k people who turned out to the nrl double header in perth that a good chink of them were RL fans who have moved to Perth lol

Storm are in the top 4 clubs for memberships and attendances. Clubs who’ve had a hundred years and are in the games heartland should be ashamed that Storm are so far ahead if them in fanbase!
Another thing that brought me around to relocating teams to Adelaide and Perth is population movement. Plenty of people are forced to relocate interstate for employment opportunities. If you're a fumbleball fan you can move to all 5 major metro areas, plus Gold Coast, and still watch AwFuL. If you're an RL fan and forced to relocate to Adelaide or Perth then you're shit out of luck. If you're stuck in Adelaide or Perth then there's a chance any family you start will grow up watching and playing fumbleball as it's the only game in town. So not only are Sydney's 9 clubs cannibalising one another, they're driving people who are forced out of Sydney and Brisbane to support AwFuL. It's a recipe for disaster.
 

Pippen94

Juniors
Messages
444
Another thing that brought me around to relocating teams to Adelaide and Perth is population movement. Plenty of people are forced to relocate interstate for employment opportunities. If you're a fumbleball fan you can move to all 5 major metro areas, plus Gold Coast, and still watch AwFuL. If you're an RL fan and forced to relocate to Adelaide or Perth then you're shit out of luck. If you're stuck in Adelaide or Perth then there's a chance any family you start will grow up watching and playing fumbleball as it's the only game in town. So not only are Sydney's 9 clubs cannibalising one another, they're driving people who are forced out of Sydney and Brisbane to support AwFuL. It's a recipe for disaster.

Nobody is moving to Adelaide & Perth if you look at the stats.

Idea that Sydney's 9 clubs are cannibalising each is a myth. It's their rivalries & presence in the country's biggest city which is why NRL is thriving financially. Replace them with teams in regional cities & places where nobody watches the sport & the league becomes less profitable.

Brisbane can be same powerhouse but right now shoot their load on one game a week.
 

Pippen94

Juniors
Messages
444
Not sure if you’ve ever left Sydney but it may come as a surprise to you that a cities population is made up of long time natives and recent immigrants. I’d say of the 39k people who turned out to the nrl double header in perth that a good chink of them were RL fans who have moved to Perth lol

Storm are in the top 4 clubs for memberships and attendances. Clubs who’ve had a hundred years and are in the games heartland should be ashamed that Storm are so far ahead if them in fanbase!

Members & attendance means shit. Canberra is the most stable club yet NRL pray each year that they don't make grand final & no other team wants to host them.
 

Perth Red

Immortal
Messages
42,768
Nobody is moving to Adelaide & Perth if you look at the stats.

Idea that Sydney's 9 clubs are cannibalising each is a myth. It's their rivalries & presence in the country's biggest city which is why NRL is thriving financially. Replace them with teams in regional cities & places where nobody watches the sport & the league becomes less profitable.

Brisbane can be same powerhouse but right now shoot their load on one game a week.

What? Perth's population is growing by around 25k a year in normal times, and by a lot more in mining boom times. In less than 10 years between 2006 and 2013 it went up by 1/2 million people! All the estimates are that Perth will hit 3million by 2050.

Sydney is over saturated, the crowds and club finances clearly show that. Some clubs revenue from football operations is pathetic and they simply wouldnt exist if they had to rely on the actual football operations to keep them going. Will it change? Not whilst people keep feeding pokie machines, but that doesnt change the fact. Sure Sydney is the most valuable city for NRl by far for lots of reasons but does it NEED nine clubs? Of course not.
 

Perth Red

Immortal
Messages
42,768
Members & attendance means shit. Canberra is the most stable club yet NRL pray each year that they don't make grand final & no other team wants to host them.

lol. WC Eagles make more from their members and attendance than half of the Sydney clubs fan generated revenue PUT TOGETHER! Try telling them that the $40million plus a year they make from fans doesn't matter! Out of a $80mill revenue TV grant for them makes up less than 13% of their revenue, and no pokies in sight! Most Sydney clubs are operating on $25-30million revenue where TV makes up about 40%. Eagles bring in more from memberships than some Sydney clubs total revenue WITH the TV grant included! But yeh fans dont matter lol

Just as an example of what that really means, WC Eagles have given over $140million in 32 years to the WAFC to fund grassroots AFL in the State. Imagine if just half the Sydney clubs could achieve that where our game would be!
 
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Pippen94

Juniors
Messages
444
lol. WC Eagles make more from their members and attendance than half of the Sydney clubs fan generated revenue PUT TOGETHER! Try telling them that the $40million plus a year they make from fans doesn't matter! Out of a $80mill revenue TV grant for them makes up less than 13% of their revenue, and no pokies in sight! Most Sydney clubs are operating on $25-30million revenue where TV makes up about 40%. Eagles bring in more from memberships than some Sydney clubs total revenue WITH the TV grant included! But yeh fans dont matter lol

Just as an example of what that really means, WC Eagles have given over $140million in 32 years to the WAFC to fund grassroots AFL in the State. Imagine if just half the Sydney clubs could achieve that where our game would be!

The nine or ten Victorian clubs located much closer together go alright also
 
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