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NRL wants two conference comp

Pippen94

Juniors
Messages
444
What? Perth's population is growing by around 25k a year in normal times, and by a lot more in mining boom times. In less than 10 years between 2006 and 2013 it went up by 1/2 million people! All the estimates are that Perth will hit 3million by 2050.

Sydney is over saturated, the crowds and club finances clearly show that. Some clubs revenue from football operations is pathetic and they simply wouldnt exist if they had to rely on the actual football operations to keep them going. Will it change? Not whilst people keep feeding pokie machines, but that doesnt change the fact. Sure Sydney is the most valuable city for NRl by far for lots of reasons but does it NEED nine clubs? Of course not.

At rate of last decade Sydney will be 10 million by 2040 (probably more). Where do you think businesses & sponsors will want to put their money?? Place growing at that rate a lot less crowded.

No proof Sydney clubs are cannibalizing each other. Some clubs are poorly run but hey what excuse do you use for cowboys, titans, knights, Auckland who've all had recent troubles?!
 

Perth Red

Immortal
Messages
42,768
At rate of last decade Sydney will be 10 million by 2040 (probably more). Where do you think businesses & sponsors will want to put their money?? Place growing at that rate a lot less crowded.

No proof Sydney clubs are cannibalizing each other. Some clubs are poorly run but hey what excuse do you use for cowboys, titans, knights, Auckland who've all had recent troubles?!

Maybe, maybe not
Sydney's population growth at a seven-year low (smh.com.au)

Of course any big city is going to be valuable, that's not in question. what is in question is if you need NINE clubs in one city to keep its value? Yes there is proof; low crowds, low memberships and low club revenue are all proof. You are right though its as much a RL problem as a Sydney problem! How Knights failed so badly with such a strong fanbase still baffles me, I can only think they were unable to attract decent corporate sales being a regional area? Probably same for NQ and GC. I guess there is a reason AFL has largely stayed away from regional areas in its expansion?
And like I keep saying it matters not what you or I think, its not changing anytime soon. What does need to happen is the NRL needs to stop worrying about how Sydney will survive and start putting its efforts into growing new and under serviced markets.
 

toomuchsoup

Juniors
Messages
1,284
I posted this in the East Tigers thread but it’s probably more relevant in this one.

Here’s my suggestion that would obviously never happen. The hard part is de-merge Wests Tigers. Now that in itself may seem ridiculous but both sides of the merger would be relocated anyway, so it wouldn’t matter if you became a fan pre or post merger, you’d be relocated anyway.

The Tigers become the Brisbane Tigers. They don’t retain the previous West’s or Balmain stats and accolades as to let the people of Brisbane know that this is a new club, but the history of the Tigers is still very much honoured and they have a game at Leichhardt every year.

The Magpies side of the merger become the West Coast Magpies. Starting a club in Perth is going to take a lot of work from the NRL. I don’t think reviving a classic rugby league brand at the same time would make it much harder, and old Wests tragics some support team from the west called the magpies in black white. West Coast Magpies away games in Sydney would get a boost. Maybe they can be the ones to play the Brisbane Tigers game at Leichhardt.

The Bulldogs would rename themselves to West Sydney Bulldogs, still representing Canterbury-Bankstown but also taking in the South-West gap left by Wests Tigers.

Manly rename to North Sydney Sea Eagles. Represent the whole North Sydney, north Shore and beaches.

Dragons make the full move to Illawarra with one game at Kogarah

That brings it to 17 teams. I’d also bring in the Dolphins this round of expansion for the 18th team as the East Coast Dolphins. I think there should be 3 Brisbane clubs in the long term and in my opinion it’s better to bring the next 2 in at the same time

Further down the track bring in NZ2 and Adelaide. South Island Orcas or South Island Scorpions and the Adelaide Bears

20 teams, full national spread while retaining classic brands

West Sydney Bulldogs
Parramatta Eels
Penrith Panthers
South Sydney Rabbitohs
Sydney Roosters
North Sydney Sea Eagles
Cronulla-Sutherland Sharks
Illawarra Dragons
Newcastle Knights
Canberra Raiders
Melbourne Storm
Auckland Warriors
North Queensland Cowboys
Gold Coast Titans
Brisbane Broncos
Brisbane Tigers
West Coast Magpies
East Coast Dolphins
South Island Orcas/Scorpions
Adelaide Bears/Rams

As I said, it’ll never happen but it’s fun to think about

Edit: quick mock up of all 20 home jerseys. Top row Sydney conference, bottom row the rest
A5BE7EE8-462A-481E-9DB3-2EAAF04CC01F.jpeg
 
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Messages
3,389
Nobody is moving to Adelaide & Perth if you look at the stats.

Idea that Sydney's 9 clubs are cannibalising each is a myth. It's their rivalries & presence in the country's biggest city which is why NRL is thriving financially. Replace them with teams in regional cities & places where nobody watches the sport & the league becomes less profitable.

Brisbane can be same powerhouse but right now shoot their load on one game a week.
@Bring back John Fifita relocated to Adelaide. @Travitoh also lived in Adelaide. I've known people who've relocated to Adelaide for one reason or another. With work hard to come by these days, people are forced to relocate to other cities. Obviously Adelaide doesn't gain have as many interstate migration as the eastern states, but it does happen. @Perth Red made a great point when he said RL fans in Adelaide and Perth watch the game via Foxtel or Kayo.

Not all nine Sydney clubs are financially stable. Without the annual grant, which is 130% of the salary cap so teams can spend $4m on their football department, some teams would be running up debt year after year. It was revealed recently that the Sharks were in deep fiscal trouble and needed to be bailed out by PVL. The ARLC wanted to relocate the Sharks interestate, but PVL talked them out ot it. This is proof that Southern Sydney has one team too many and needs to be rationalised.

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/nrl/ho...extinction-or-relocation-20210417-p57k1n.html
 
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3,389
What does need to happen is the NRL needs to stop worrying about how Sydney will survive and start putting its efforts into growing new and under serviced markets.
Bingo!

There wouldn't be any talk about rationalisation if there wasn't a history of Sydney clubs struggling financially. Every year there's one that has trouble stayonf afloat. What that says is there aren't enough RL fans in Sydney to support 9 clubs. They're all fighting over a limited supply of sponsors willing to associate with them.

These clubs have had 56 to 113 years to develop a sustainable business case, yet most of them are living hand to mouth each year just to survive. The demand just isn't there to justify the supply, and with increased competition from soccer and fumbleball, the demand will only dwindle.
 

flippikat

Bench
Messages
2,543
How Knights failed so badly with such a strong fanbase still baffles me, I can only think they were unable to attract decent corporate sales being a regional area? Probably same for NQ and GC. I guess there is a reason AFL has largely stayed away from regional areas in its expansion?

I think you're on the mark there. There surely can't be the level of corporate money in mid-size regional centres that there is in a big city..

In a way, AFL-land is lucky that (aside from Geelong) they don't have mid-size regional locations like Newcastle, Wollongong, Gosford/Central Coast or Townsville. So the decision was easy to just concentrate on the big cities then double-down, creating derbies (or virtual derby in SE-Qld) for every one.
 
Messages
3,389
lol. WC Eagles make more from their members and attendance than half of the Sydney clubs fan generated revenue PUT TOGETHER! Try telling them that the $40million plus a year they make from fans doesn't matter! Out of a $80mill revenue TV grant for them makes up less than 13% of their revenue, and no pokies in sight! Most Sydney clubs are operating on $25-30million revenue where TV makes up about 40%. Eagles bring in more from memberships than some Sydney clubs total revenue WITH the TV grant included! But yeh fans dont matter lol

Just as an example of what that really means, WC Eagles have given over $140million in 32 years to the WAFC to fund grassroots AFL in the State. Imagine if just half the Sydney clubs could achieve that where our game would be!
A few months ago I was one of those stubborn buggers from the northern states who didn't realise just how small our clubs are compared to AwFuL. I didn't want to accept it at first, but I've gotten over the denial and now realise our game needs to make serious changes if it wants to draw more fans through gates. Our game does the same shit year in, year out, and blindly hopes things improve. Stubbornness and delusion is embedded in our game's DNA and it's slowly leading it over the cliff and into oblivion.

I think part of the problem is our game's working class origins and culture. Most RL people don't have the aptitude to run a business, which is what sport is these days. AwFuL doesn't have this problem as it is supported by people from all walks of life. Dickheads play fumbleball, smart buggers run things behind the scene. John Grant failed RL during his tenure in the ARLC. He gave clubs an annual grant of 130% of the salary cap to keep his job, which was an enormous amount of money that the game couldn't afford to pay. The clubs chased him away a year later. Shane Richardson is a great businessman who had a great plan to get better results while spending less money, so the clubs chased him away because they're afraid of change and not being in charge.

I'll probably cop shit for saying this, but I think the other part of the problem is the NSWRL has always been the spoilt brat of the RL world and never endured any hardships. From its inception it had RU players defect to its ranks in 1908, whereas the BRL had to start from scratch with QRU keeping its players. NSW Gov introduced pokies in the mid-50s, which allowed NSWRL Leagues Clubs to produce money that made their football departments rich. There was never an incentive for football clubs to market themselves to the public so they could generate more revenue from customers paying to see them play, which is what VFL did through memberships. They used this advantage to bankrupt the BRL, just as the game was transforming from semi-professionalism to full-time professionalism. The extra revenue needed to run a full-time professional league was beyond Sydney clubs that drew NSL-like attendances of 5k, and some of them went out of business and others were bailed out by News Ltd. Boy did they sook down in Sydney during this period, even though they were the villains who caused all the problems. The Sydney clubs are bloody lucky pay TV came into the frame when it did and needed RL, otherwise even more sides would have died.

NSWRL didn't want Origin because they were accustomed to having everything in their favour. The old residential rules behind representative games benefitted NSW as their Leagues Clubs generated money that allowed their football clubs to lure Queensland's best players away from the BRL so that they could pull on a blue jersey and play for NSW. The media down in Sydney ridiculed the idea of Origin and called Queenslanders stupid and crazy for wanting it. Thanks to the QRL, we now have a money generating product that is the jewel in the crown of Australian sport. It's a miracle that the BRL clubs, operating on a shoestring budget, were able to produce the best players in the late 70s and 80s to form the bulk of a Queensland side that owned NSW during the 80s.
 
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3,389
The nine or ten Victorian clubs located much closer together go alright also
VFL developed a membership culture back in the 60s and 70s that led to greater attendances and tribalism. NSWRL focused on Leagues Clubs filled with pokies, played by gamblers who didn't really give a shit about the football club and were probably putting coin after coin into a poker machine at the Leagues Club while the team was running around on the field. That's why their fans are more loyal and passionate than ours.
 

flippikat

Bench
Messages
2,543
VFL developed a membership culture back in the 60s and 70s that led to greater attendances and tribalism. NSWRL focused on Leagues Clubs filled with pokies, played by gamblers who didn't really give a shit about the football club and were probably putting coin after coin into a poker machine at the Leagues Club while the team was running around on the field. That's why their fans are more loyal and passionate than ours.

Not just that, but they had an truly expansionist mindset forming within their game as long ago as the early 1980s, with some people in their game that looked towards Sydney as a market of value, despite it being outside of AFL heartland.

At the same time, the NSWRL was doing was looking at Illawarra, Newcastle & Canberra. More a case of reinforcing the heartland than bold expansion to totally new big markets. . Huge difference in outlook.
 
Messages
3,389
Not just that, but they had an truly expansionist mindset forming within their game as long ago as the early 1980s, with some people in their game that looked towards Sydney as a market of value, despite it being outside of AFL heartland.

At the same time, the NSWRL was doing was looking at Illawarra, Newcastle & Canberra. More a case of reinforcing the heartland than bold expansion to totally new big markets. . Huge difference in outlook.
A few VFL teams wanted to relocate to Brisbane before Christopher Skase created the Bears. VFL wanted to relocate Fitzroy to Brisbane, but the Lions declined and used the licence fees generated from the Eagles and Bears to keep their noses above water. Eventually their money woes caught up with them and AwFuL took matters into their hands and merged them with the Bears in 1996. Contrast that with PVL, who convinced the ARLC to not relocate Cronulla when then were $5.5m out of pocket. Cronulla are the NRL's Fitzroy, except every time they fall on hard times they're bailed out. Fitzroy only got bailed out once before the AwFuL said enough is enough, let's get rid of this failed club.
 
Messages
4,734
Eventually their money woes caught up with them and AwFuL took matters into their hands and merged them with the Bears in 1996.
The AFL were even more aggressive than that.

What actually happened was while they were in the process of merging with North Melbourne when Fitzroy defaulted on a loan from Nauru, whom then put them in administration.

Once that happened they were in the power of the administrator, and despite Fitzroy wanting to continue with the merger with Norths the administrator was convinced by the AFL and Brisbane to effectively give Fitzroy’s assets to Brisbane.

In other words it wasn’t really a merger in the traditional sense, it was more Brisbane buying all of the Lion’s assets.

The AFL knew that if Brisbane was going to be a success that it needed legitimacy and a few good players to build a successful team. Fitzroy offered both so they pushed them that way.
 
Messages
7,543
@Bring back John Fifita relocated to Adelaide. @Travitoh also lived in Adelaide. I've known people who've relocated to Adelaide for one reason or another. With work hard to come by these days, people are forced to relocate to other cities. Obviously Adelaide doesn't gain have as many interstate migration as the eastern states, but it does happen. @Perth Red made a great point when he said RL fans in Adelaide and Perth watch the game via Foxtel or Kayo.

Not all nine Sydney clubs are financially stable. Without the annual grant, which is 130% of the salary cap so teams can spend $4m on their football department, some teams would be running up debt year after year. It was revealed recently that the Sharks were in deep fiscal trouble and needed to be bailed out by PVL. The ARLC wanted to relocate the Sharks interestate, but PVL talked them out ot it. This is proof that Southern Sydney has one team too many and needs to be rationalised.

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/nrl/ho...extinction-or-relocation-20210417-p57k1n.html

Theres lots of expats from the east coast, primarily Sydney, over here that I know. Many have been here a long time. And now I live here I can see why.... one of the major ones being cost of housing.... you can get an awesome house on a decent block of land within half an hour from the city for a quarter of the cost the same house would be in Sydney...

There’s also a decent population of English n South Africans... Unless the laws have changed, for immigration reasons, Adelaide is considered a regional centre and as such it’s easier to get a working visa coming here, and thus a quicker pathway to permanent residency, sponsorship, citizenship. All the ones I know don’t follow the AFL... if anything it’s basketball that they watch live...

The major reason people move away from Adelaide is seeking employment in big business/industry. We just don’t have the same volume of career opportunities here in finance, it, construction etc etc. Big business lies primarily on the east coast. But the defence industry here is huge.

Adelaide has more than meets the eye though. I know plenty of people who bag it even though they’ve never been here, or only visited on occasion. It’s human nature to bag what you don’t know or is foreign to you...

It’s a city that is effectively a big community that gets behind all major events n sporting teams that are here. SA is tagged “the festival state” and I know why now ... come here in March.... and you’ll know too.

Top joint.... and a rugby league team would be a great addition to both the city and the NRL.
 
Messages
3,389
Theres lots of expats from the east coast, primarily Sydney, over here that I know. Many have been here a long time. And now I live here I can see why.... one of the major ones being cost of housing.... you can get an awesome house on a decent block of land within half an hour from the city for a quarter of the cost the same house would be in Sydney...

There’s also a decent population of English n South Africans... Unless the laws have changed, for immigration reasons, Adelaide is considered a regional centre and as such it’s easier to get a working visa coming here, and thus a quicker pathway to permanent residency, sponsorship, citizenship. All the ones I know don’t follow the AFL... if anything it’s basketball that they watch live...

The major reason people move away from Adelaide is seeking employment in big business/industry. We just don’t have the same volume of career opportunities here in finance, it, construction etc etc. Big business lies primarily on the east coast. But the defence industry here is huge.

Adelaide has more than meets the eye though. I know plenty of people who bag it even though they’ve never been here, or only visited on occasion. It’s human nature to bag what you don’t know or is foreign to you...

It’s a city that is effectively a big community that gets behind all major events n sporting teams that are here. SA is tagged “the festival state” and I know why now ... come here in March.... and you’ll know too.

Top joint.... and a rugby league team would be a great addition to both the city and the NRL.
RL needs teams in Adelaide and Perth for this reason.
 

Pippen94

Juniors
Messages
444
Maybe, maybe not
Sydney's population growth at a seven-year low (smh.com.au)

Of course any big city is going to be valuable, that's not in question. what is in question is if you need NINE clubs in one city to keep its value? Yes there is proof; low crowds, low memberships and low club revenue are all proof. You are right though its as much a RL problem as a Sydney problem! How Knights failed so badly with such a strong fanbase still baffles me, I can only think they were unable to attract decent corporate sales being a regional area? Probably same for NQ and GC. I guess there is a reason AFL has largely stayed away from regional areas in its expansion?
And like I keep saying it matters not what you or I think, its not changing anytime soon. What does need to happen is the NRL needs to stop worrying about how Sydney will survive and start putting its efforts into growing new and under serviced markets.

NRL is not worried about Sydney survival it's trying to maximize this strength. Conference system makes league more lucrative. Shouldn't knock as increased revenue could see further expansion to rusted on afl cities
 

Perth Red

Immortal
Messages
42,768
7k at souths, 6k at manly, 8k at tigers, 7k at dragons. Sydney clearly needs all the help it can get! That’s 5 Sydney clubs this weekend that played in front of less than a total of 30k fans!!
 
Messages
3,389
NRL needs neither. Perth could add 100k to grand final should team make it but 9 & fox aren't interested at all.

North Sydney probably a more lucrative proposition; large, affluent catchment without a team in country's biggest market.
Shouldn't Manly try to cash in on this by rebranding as North Sydney Sea Eagles and marketing themselves heavily to investors and kids from the area?

A North Sydney Sea Eagles embedded within the North Shore and Northern Beaches within 20 years would be a major asset to the NRL. We need to think long-term.
 
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