NSW Clubs forced out of QLD Cup

[Bluebags1908]

Your lack of comprehension is astounding. There are not significant leagues clubs to link to in the Canberra region, other than the Raiders. The local clubs in the Canberra Raiders Cup (which is also run by the Raiders) don't have the resources to put a team in the NSW Cup. The ones that are there are set up to compete in Canberra Raiders Cup, one of the strongest local comps around, but that's all they can handle financially. This point has been made over and over. The only option for a NSW Cup team in Canberrra is for the Raiders to run the whole thing.

And I don't care that you've never said the Raiders should have a feeder arrangement with a Sydney team. This isn't about you, or what you say. It is one of the choices, as I've fully explained, proferred by the NSWRL, up in Sydney. THEY have said this is one of the things they'd like to see. So, it is perfectly reasonable to raise the point!

Well the Raiders will have to put their own side in the NSW Cup. Simple.

 

[Bluebags1908]

Actually, there is an ACT Rugby League competition, it is Canberra Raiders Cup and run by the Raiders, and it is a good standard comp.

The Raiders are very active in junior development, provide pathways to the NRL for the Canberra region - in fact the whole of southern NSW - and having Souths Logan as a feeder club does nothing at all to stop that (the Raiders run Harold Matthews, SG Ball, Toyota Cup and NRL sides, so LOTS of opportunity there), indeed, it also allows for a pathway for players in the Souths Logan area to come into the NRL via the Raiders.

Bravo. All very good. Excellent development work. Disagree about the Souths Logan arrangement however. You can't sugar-coat a turd. The Souths Logan arrangement DOES do damage to grass roost in the Canberra region.

 

[Bluebags1908]

This is an excellent point, and one that needs extra emphasis. If the Raiders were forced to come up with the funds for a full NSW cup team, money would have to be diverted from elsewhere. Where's the most likely place? I'd guess the Canberra Raiders Cup. How would that help the grassroots in Canberra?

This would be much more viable if the NSW cup was played as a curtain raiser to first grade, allowing some of the costs to be shared, but as it stands at the moment there is no viable option in the region for a NSW cup team.

Oh cry me a river. The Radiers have been able to field reserve grade sides since 1982 up until the current Souths Logan arrangement. This "we can't afford to send a team in the NSW Cup" is just a shallow arguement.

The Raiders CAN afford it - it's just they couldn't give a stuff about their feeder team and just make excuses.

Granted, they are at a disadvantage compared to other teams in having to pay for travel to and from Sydney for NSW Cup away games, but that doesn't excuse their behaviour. Their solution in sending their payers up to Queensland and FORCING THEIR LOCAL FEEDER TEAM TO FOLD AND ABANDONING THEIR JUNIOR AREA IN THE PROCESS is rotten to the core and the one of the worst options possible.

They could have come up with other options and could have done cost cutting in other areas to save their local feeder team, but they didn't.

Melbourne Storm, and the Warriors somehow find a way of gettign around the travel logistics in fielding teams locally-based teams in the NSW Cup, but the Raiders can't.

 

[Big-Steve]

According to this, when Newcastle pulled out of the NSW Cup a few years back it was to save them $300k. That gels with what I've heard elsewhere.

The Reds, because they would have run a standalone team would have had to factor in the full costs of player salaries - whereas the NRL teams were already paying salaries for the best players in their NSW Cup teams so the cost of running a team was really quite small.

North Sydney's yearly budget is around $600,000. plus Souths pay half the salary of the Coach. Players can be signed with Norths (NS pays), signed with Souths (SS pays), or on match payments (NS or SS pay). Although it should be said NS are one of the stronger teams and so other budgets would vary.

At the moment though some resources have been going to the CC bid.

the Newcastle/Central Coast setup is particular one as it has funding this year from the NSWRL. This is the first time the NSWRL has allocated funding to the NSW Cup in any major form and some other clubs are a bit unhappy the NSWRL is effectively helping fund the Newcastle NRL club or at least the money any other NRL/NSWRL clubs have to find themselves to fund a NSW Cup club.

Its well known around town however that this deal came about because the head of the NSWCRL, Terry Quinn is against the Bears being a part of a Coast bid and was detirmined that a NS proposal to fund a Central Coast Cubs would not be accepted.

 

[Bluebags1908]

Funny how they didn't care that the NQ Young Guns used to play in NSW comps and the Titans play in the SG Ball and HM comps now...

Oh, and one more thing - whilst I agree that the NQ Young Guns should never have played in the NSW Cup, at least their feeder team was still based in Townsville and played home games in Townsville. Unlike the Canberra/Souths Logan arrangement. The Young Guns were still a genuine local team. Much like the Melbourne Storm and Auckland Vulcans in the NSW Cup currently.

 

[Perth Red]

North Sydney's yearly budget is around $600,000. plus Souths pay half the salary of the Coach. Players can be signed with Norths (NS pays), signed with Souths (SS pays), or on match payments (NS or SS pay). Although it should be said NS are one of the stronger teams and so other budgets would vary.

At the moment though some resources have been going to the CC bid.

the Newcastle/Central Coast setup is particular one as it has funding this year from the NSWRL. This is the first time the NSWRL has allocated funding to the NSW Cup in any major form and some other clubs are a bit unhappy the NSWRL is effectively helping fund the Newcastle NRL club or at least the money any other NRL/NSWRL clubs have to find themselves to fund a NSW Cup club.

Its well known around town however that this deal came about because the head of the NSWCRL, Terry Quinn is against the Bears being a part of a Coast bid and was detirmined that a NS proposal to fund a Central Coast Cubs would not be accepted.

out of interest is it the NSWRL or the ARL that allocates money? I thought it was the ARL that gave us our grants for our teams in teh Bundy cup and now SG Ball not the NSWRL?

Hopefully one plus of the new TV deal $'s will be the ARL having the resources to help fund areas such as this so the best outcomes for RL can be achieved.

 

[Big-Steve]

out of interest is it the NSWRL or the ARL that allocates money? I thought it was the ARL that gave us our grants for our teams in teh Bundy cup and now SG Ball not the NSWRL?

Hopefully one plus of the new TV deal $'s will be the ARL having the resources to help fund areas such as this so the best outcomes for RL can be achieved.

Its my understanding that Quinn went to the NSWRL and they pledged the amount.

A would doubt very much that the ARL has any idea what teams are in the bunndy or NSW Cup enough to directly allocate funds to specific clubs.

Maybe a WA team they may.

I can tell you that North Sydney has never recieved any allocation what so ever for any of its rep teams be that Matts, Ball, Flegg or NSW Cup.

 

[The Observer]

What would stop Souths Logan from entering the NSW Cup as Canberra's feeder team? The NSW Cup already welcomes the Melbourne Storm from interstate, and the Auckland Vulcans from overseas.

 

[Raidersrawesome]

What would stop Souths Logan from entering the NSW Cup as Canberra's feeder team? The NSW Cup already welcomes the Melbourne Storm from interstate, and the Auckland Vulcans from overseas.

SL are having severe financial issues atm and could possably fold and they wouldnt wont to play in an inferior competition.

 

[siv]

Melbourne Storm, and the Warriors somehow find a way of gettign around the travel logistics in fielding teams locally-based teams in the NSW Cup, but the Raiders can't.

And Canberra and Manly can fly their players to brissy every weekend

 

[griff]

There are a few disingenuous comments here. The first is that NSWRL has no jurisdiction over the Canberra Raiders. Wrong, the Raiders are a NSWRL affiliated club. Second is that the Souths Logan/Raiders relationship has been long term. It hasn't, just because the Raiders happened to sign Meninga and Belcher from Souths in 1986 doesn't mean they had a relationship. The feeder relationship is only quite recent.

Also, I think the cost of running a NSWRL club is over-stated.

According to an article today, it costs $400,000 a year to run the Newtown Jets. However, they also get about $400,000 a year in revenue.

Say the Raiders happened to have a NSWRL side (let's call them Queanbeyan City). Given that they wouldn't need separate back office administrations to the Raiders, it would cost less than a standalone club like Newtown, so lets say it would cost $300,000 a year.

If Queanbeyan City could get 20,000 people through the turnstiles at Seiffert Oval over the course of the season, each paying 5 bucks, that's $100,000 a year. So that leaves the Raiders down by $200,000 a year.

But what's the cost of the current arrangements? Well flying 4-5 players back and forth between Canberra and Brisbane, plus housing them when they were up there and contributing to their additional living expenses would conservatively cost $100,000 a year (it's probably a lot more).

So that leaves $100,000 a year net to run a NSWRL club. Sponsorship, chook raffles, auctions, leagues club grants from Queanbeyan Leagues and Kangaroos Leagues, grants from Queanbeyan City Council, and so on should easily be able to raise that much cash. Newtown raise $400,000 a year. Norths raise $600,000 a year. Could Queanbeyan City raise enough money to break even? I would say almost certainly.

So I really don't buy the argument that the Raiders can't afford it.

 

[greeneyed]

Bravo. All very good. Excellent development work. Disagree about the Souths Logan arrangement however. You can't sugar-coat a turd. The Souths Logan arrangement DOES do damage to grass roost in the Canberra region.

Rubbish.

 

[VictorTheViking]

There are a few disingenuous comments here. The first is that NSWRL has no jurisdiction over the Canberra Raiders. Wrong, the Raiders are a NSWRL affiliated club. Second is that the Souths Logan/Raiders relationship has been long term. It hasn't, just because the Raiders happened to sign Meninga and Belcher from Souths in 1986 doesn't mean they had a relationship. The feeder relationship is only quite recent.

Also, I think the cost of running a NSWRL club is over-stated.

According to an article today, it costs $400,000 a year to run the Newtown Jets. However, they also get about $400,000 a year in revenue.

Say the Raiders happened to have a NSWRL side (let's call them Queanbeyan City). Given that they wouldn't need separate back office administrations to the Raiders, it would cost less than a standalone club like Newtown, so lets say it would cost $300,000 a year.

If Queanbeyan City could get 20,000 people through the turnstiles at Seiffert Oval over the course of the season, each paying 5 bucks, that's $100,000 a year. So that leaves the Raiders down by $200,000 a year.

But what's the cost of the current arrangements? Well flying 4-5 players back and forth between Canberra and Brisbane, plus housing them when they were up there and contributing to their additional living expenses would conservatively cost $100,000 a year (it's probably a lot more).

So that leaves $100,000 a year net to run a NSWRL club. Sponsorship, chook raffles, auctions, leagues club grants from Queanbeyan Leagues and Kangaroos Leagues, grants from Queanbeyan City Council, and so on should easily be able to raise that much cash. Newtown raise $400,000 a year. Norths raise $600,000 a year. Could Queanbeyan City raise enough money to break even? I would say almost certainly.

So I really don't buy the argument that the Raiders can't afford it.

Afaik the option of running their own nsw cup side was looked at before the raider's joined with souths logan in the current arrangement, and it was cheaper to have the setup that we do now.

Going by Geoff Carr's logic he could ban broncos players who don't play in the nsw cup....

 

[greeneyed]

Well the Raiders will have to put their own side in the NSW Cup. Simple.

Why? Please explain why that is an equitable and sensible demand of the NSWRL, when they do not ask other NRL clubs in Sydney to put full teams in the NSW Cup? If the NSWRL were to demand that of all NRL clubs, it may make some modicum of sense. The Sydney-centric nature of the NSWRL is astounding.

 

[VictorTheViking]

Oh cry me a river. The Radiers have been able to field reserve grade sides since 1982 up until the current Souths Logan arrangement. This "we can't afford to send a team in the NSW Cup" is just a shallow arguement.

The Raiders CAN afford it - it's just they couldn't give a stuff about their feeder team and just make excuses.

Granted, they are at a disadvantage compared to other teams in having to pay for travel to and from Sydney for NSW Cup away games, but that doesn't excuse their behaviour. Their solution in sending their payers up to Queensland and FORCING THEIR LOCAL FEEDER TEAM TO FOLD AND ABANDONING THEIR JUNIOR AREA IN THE PROCESS is rotten to the core and the one of the worst options possible.

They could have come up with other options and could have done cost cutting in other areas to save their local feeder team, but they didn't.

Melbourne Storm, and the Warriors somehow find a way of gettign around the travel logistics in fielding teams locally-based teams in the NSW Cup, but the Raiders can't.

Is this all you can come up with, you've been completely rebuffed at every avenue in this thread, and you sprout rubbish such as this?? What local feeder team are you talking about?? As for abandoning our local junior area, take a look at the juniors coming through our ranks sunshine before you come out with rubbish like this.

 

[griff]

Afaik the option of running their own nsw cup side was looked at before the raider's joined with souths logan in the current arrangement, and it was cheaper to have the setup that we do now.

I'm sure that's true. It is cheaper to spend $100,000 a year sending players to Souths Logan than $300,000 a year on a NSWRL club.

However, I'm not convinced they actually looked at the potential revenue side of the equation, particularly a club with a separate standalone "brand" (and therefore the ability to separately sell sponsorship etc).

In net terms, I think a NSWRL club would cost about the same as a Brisbane feeder club, and it would be much better for the game in the local region and in NSW more generally.

Going by Geoff Carr's logic he could ban broncos players who don't play in the nsw cup....

Not really, the same logic would be banning Broncos players if the Broncos had a NSW cup feeder side at the expense of their own backyard.

 

[greeneyed]

There are a few disingenuous comments here. The first is that NSWRL has no jurisdiction over the Canberra Raiders. Wrong, the Raiders are a NSWRL affiliated club. Second is that the Souths Logan/Raiders relationship has been long term. It hasn't, just because the Raiders happened to sign Meninga and Belcher from Souths in 1986 doesn't mean they had a relationship. The feeder relationship is only quite recent.

Also, I think the cost of running a NSWRL club is over-stated.

According to an article today, it costs $400,000 a year to run the Newtown Jets. However, they also get about $400,000 a year in revenue.

Say the Raiders happened to have a NSWRL side (let's call them Queanbeyan City). Given that they wouldn't need separate back office administrations to the Raiders, it would cost less than a standalone club like Newtown, so lets say it would cost $300,000 a year.

If Queanbeyan City could get 20,000 people through the turnstiles at Seiffert Oval over the course of the season, each paying 5 bucks, that's $100,000 a year. So that leaves the Raiders down by $200,000 a year.

But what's the cost of the current arrangements? Well flying 4-5 players back and forth between Canberra and Brisbane, plus housing them when they were up there and contributing to their additional living expenses would conservatively cost $100,000 a year (it's probably a lot more).

So that leaves $100,000 a year net to run a NSWRL club. Sponsorship, chook raffles, auctions, leagues club grants from Queanbeyan Leagues and Kangaroos Leagues, grants from Queanbeyan City Council, and so on should easily be able to raise that much cash. Newtown raise $400,000 a year. Norths raise $600,000 a year. Could Queanbeyan City raise enough money to break even? I would say almost certainly.

So I really don't buy the argument that the Raiders can't afford it.

The Canberra NRL team is not affiliated to the NSWRL, it is part of the NRL. The local competition's senior competition, is affiliated to the CRL, not the NSWRL. The juniors are affiliated also to NSWRL, as I understand it.

None of that should give the NSWRL the right to demand Canberra does things not demanded of Sydney NRL clubs.

Link to Souths Logan: has been a link before the player sharing agreement of 2008-2010, because Canberra own a sports club in Logan (one in Toowoomba as well) and the Raiders put in for junior development.

$100,000 a year to fly to Brisbane and back? It would cost a quarter of that.

Now, why should the Raiders set up something called "Queanbeyan City"? That would be competing with a very good local Canberra Raiders Cup, which has two Queanbeyan sides, it would actually DETRACT from local development... it would use money presently used for the local clubs.

 

[greeneyed]

Oh cry me a river. The Radiers have been able to field reserve grade sides since 1982 up until the current Souths Logan arrangement. This "we can't afford to send a team in the NSW Cup" is just a shallow arguement.

The Raiders CAN afford it - it's just they couldn't give a stuff about their feeder team and just make excuses.

Granted, they are at a disadvantage compared to other teams in having to pay for travel to and from Sydney for NSW Cup away games, but that doesn't excuse their behaviour. Their solution in sending their payers up to Queensland and FORCING THEIR LOCAL FEEDER TEAM TO FOLD AND ABANDONING THEIR JUNIOR AREA IN THE PROCESS is rotten to the core and the one of the worst options possible.

They could have come up with other options and could have done cost cutting in other areas to save their local feeder team, but they didn't.

Melbourne Storm, and the Warriors somehow find a way of gettign around the travel logistics in fielding teams locally-based teams in the NSW Cup, but the Raiders can't.

The Raiders didn't decide on the abandonment of Premier League. They had nothing to do with it. The Sydney clubs got together and killed it. So the Raiders said: OK, this is the new world, our competitors aren't putting in teams, and their explicit aim is to save the dollars. So, why be at competitive disadvantage to all these Sydney teams, and the NSWRL is doing nothing about that! They aren't demanding Parramatta - who were at the forefront of killing Premier League - or Easts put in full teams!

When the NSWRL demand all the Sydney teams put in full sides into the NSW Cup, then they can demand the Raiders do. Hypocrites! Of course, you might not like that... because your own club is the beneficiary of the current arrangements up in Sydney!

Now, abandoning the local area? The Raiders have done nothing of the sort! Now, Easts, they are a team that has done NOTHING for local development, and attempted to withdraw from any junior development activities whatsoever! Canberra have done nothing to abandon junior development, they are one of the foremost development clubs in the NRL! Both in Canberra/Southern NSW and SE Qld!

 

[VictorTheViking]

I'm sure that's true. It is cheaper to spend $100,000 a year sending players to Souths Logan than $300,000 a year on a NSWRL club.

However, I'm not convinced they actually looked at the potential revenue side of the equation, particularly a club with a separate standalone "brand" (and therefore the ability to separately sell sponsorship etc).

In net terms, I think a NSWRL club would cost about the same as a Brisbane feeder club, and it would be much better for the game in the local region and in NSW more generally.

Not really, the same logic would be banning Broncos players if the Broncos had a NSW cup feeder side at the expense of their own backyard.

Explain to me how we are abandoning our own backyard???

Canberra playing in the NSW Cup would make the competition no better than it is now......it just creates an expense for the club that at present is completely unnecessary, the fact that they don't make any other "sydney based club" run their own (not affiliated) side is just another reason why this is complete bullsh*t.

The raiders stated that if the NSWRL could provide them with a viable alternative then it would be very closely considered, and instead of f**king doing that, they basically demand that the raider's play their fringe players in the NSW Cup, or threaten to ban them from playing NRL football if required, either way they have no legal leg to stand on if the raider's decide (and I sincerely hope they do) to fight the NSWRL, it's like telling a sparkie he can't use an insulated screwdriver because its the wrong brand....a restraint of trade.

 

[griff]

The Canberra NRL team is not affiliated to the NSWRL, it is part of the NRL. The local competition's senior competition, is affiliated to the CRL, not the NSWRL. The juniors are affiliated also to NSWRL, as I understand it.

Not really, the Canberra Raiders are a NSWRL affiliated club (along with the other NSW NRL clubs, Norths, and Newtown), and separately hold an NRL licence.

The local competition (including juniors) is affiliated with the CRL, and therefore also to the NSWRL.

None of that should give the NSWRL the right to demand Canberra does things not demanded of Sydney NRL clubs.

They are exactly the same demands, that NSW NRL clubs have a feeder club in a NSW competition and not in a Qld competition.

Link to Souths Logan: has been a link before the player sharing agreement of 2008-2010, because Canberra own a sports club in Logan (one in Toowoomba as well) and the Raiders put in for junior development.

The licenced clubs (as distinct from the Raiders) contribute to junior development (and other community projects), as required under their licencing arrangements. The Raiders owning a club in Logan is also a very recent event. Contributing to local community projects would have to happen regardless of any feeder arrangements.

$100,000 a year to fly to Brisbane and back? It would cost a quarter of that.

About 200 bucks each way, 4-5 players per week, 26 weeks a year, plus a little bit of travel allowance and accommodation expenses would easily be $100,000 a year.

Now, why should the Raiders set up something called "Queanbeyan City"? That would be competing with a very good local Canberra Raiders Cup, which has two Queanbeyan sides, it would actually DETRACT from local development... it would use money presently used for the local clubs.

They wouldn't be competing with the Canberra Raiders Cup sides anymore than the Raiders compete with the Queanbeyan Blues. If anything I think it will strengthen the local comp, giving local Canberra Raiders Cup players a local stepping stone to aim for. You could also have double headers with NSWRL and Canberra Raiders Cup games, which would expose more spectators and public interest to the local competition than is currently the case. The best Canberra Raiders Cup players would get signed up for the local NSWRL cup side and therefore not turn out for Canberra Raiders Cup sides, but that could hardly be seen to not be in the best interests of RL in the region.

The other reason it makes sense is player welfare. If you have a young family are you going to want to be shunted off to Souths Logan every other week? If they had a local feeder team they would live locally and train with the relevant team.