NSW Cup restructure

[siv]

Not one single bush club or region is going to spend $100k plus to play in some third string nswrl comp, even if they had the money, which they dont. Even the central coast clubs who played in the old Jim beam cup started pulling out within a year or two and they had an hour to travel at the most. Ffs Canberra can't even be f**ked playing in the NSW cup now and they have more cash than most.

After giving increased grants to NRL clubs

Each QLD Cup and NSW Cup team should get at $250k grant

 

[alien]

Thats like saying we should end the NRL because Clubs are on a level below Rep sides, or that we should end Origin because it takes away from Internationals....

not really, because i'm not saying the nsw cup or qld cup should be ended. they would still exist but would basically be 3rd tier. i know qld cup might not see themselves as 2nd tier, but they are nonetheless

 

[siv]

What?

So youre suggesting the QCup become a place where RG rejects go and you think the effect on playing quality will be "Minimal"? Considering it is at RG level right now

Comon man

Just like many are today these second Tier comps will be mainly part time footballers

Also every 2 years a full grade of players pass through the system either pushing older players out or players retiring at 21 when they dont get a opportunity

I am for creating opportunities for players by bringing back a competition layer

 

[Mandalorian]

Just like many are today these second Tier comps will be mainly part time footballers

Also every 2 years a full grade of players pass through the system either pushing older players out or players retiring at 21 when they dont get a opportunity

I am for creating opportunities for players by bringing back a competition layer

Well thats the thing, you're not creating opportunities in reality. A national RG would be 16 teams only, where as the current system has a combined 26 teams at this level

All you are doing is shuffling players around and pushing a heap of them down a level. Most players lose motivation when they are further away from a FG position

Essentially, you'll just be causing more of what you think you will be preventing: Players moving on from the game

 

[siv]

Ok I now have the stats for the NSW Cup in 2015. 189 players with NRL experience played in the NSW Cup this year as follows:

Newcastle 16
Wyong 11
Mounties 18
Canterbury 14
NZ Warriors 9
Penrith 15
Manly 20
North Sydney 14
Newtown 16
Illawarra 19
wests Tigers 17
Wentworthville 20

The split would half and half between regulars and occasionals - the normal comings and goings between 1st grade and reserve grade.

So if you remove the NRL badged clubs

That leaves
Wyong 11
Mounties 18
Norths 14
Newtown 16
Wenty 20

Of those Wyong Mt Pritchard Wenty all have lower grade structures to fill any gaps

Norths have a U18 and RM Cup support structure so will manage without Souths

Newtown would be most effected but they have a large basin in Sydney to draw upon

 

[East Coast Tiger]

After giving increased grants to NRL clubs

Each QLD Cup and NSW Cup team should get at $250k grant

So spend maybe $7m a year on two third tier comps on top of the extra it will cost to bring back reserve grade? Right.

f**king expensive exercise so a few (a very few) Sydney folk can see three grades like the old days.

 

[siv]

Well thats the thing, you're not creating opportunities in reality. A national RG would be 16 teams only, where as the current system has a combined 26 teams at this level

All you are doing is shuffling players around and pushing a heap of them down a level. Most players lose motivation when they are further away from a FG position

Essentially, you'll just be causing more of what you think you will be preventing: Players moving on from the game

Have a look at Wyong GF team you wont find many there who.will push into the Easts FG side. Easts are using their U20s as a feeder team

 

[rightleftin]

So if you remove the NRL badged clubs

That leaves
Wyong 11
Mounties 18
Norths 14
Newtown 16
Wenty 20

Of those Wyong Mt Pritchard Wenty all have lower grade structures to fill any gaps

Norths have a U18 and RM Cup support structure so will manage without Souths

Newtown would be most effected but they have a large basin in Sydney to draw upon

With the exception of Wyong, they are nothing more than "badges" - nearly 200 NRL players in the grade ie the vast majority of players are on NRL clubs books. You believed the NRL clubs were providing only 4 players per team.

The reason there will never be a national reserve grade is because none of the NRL clubs want it. The used to sign 45-50 players not including NYC now they sign 30-35. They are saving the costs of 15 players and this is met by the badged clubs as they fill the gaps.

When Newtown were standalone they were the Kingsgrove of the NSW Cup - 1000 points conceded and virtually no wins.

 

[Hello, I'm The Doctor]

Not one single bush club or region is going to spend $100k plus to play in some third string nswrl comp, even if they had the money, which they dont. Even the central coast clubs who played in the old Jim beam cup started pulling out within a year or two and they had an hour to travel at the most. Ffs Canberra can't even be f**ked playing in the NSW cup now and they have more cash than most.

That $100k tag is why i would support conferences to minimise travel cost as much as possible...

As for the suggestion that not bush/regional club would want to join, i would say that the prestige of competing against the top semi-professiona/amateur Sydney teams as well as the chance to play a national decider on GF day would be a sufficient draw.

 

[East Coast Tiger]

$100k would be minimum just to get started. Most qld cup clubs would have budgets of $500k or more. That's not feasible for country clubs or regions, especially not long term. And that's before you consider the logistical problems.

 

[Hello, I'm The Doctor]

Lets discuss these points

Too expensive
- ARLC has record earnings so can easily afford this

Im sure they could, but that doesnt mean this is the most effective use of this money

Fan interest
- there is so much talk of improving the game day experiance. 3 grades without a 45 min break has worked for years and is still a important factor most clubs across the country

You could play a random selection of the State championship games before the NRL games.

Again, this isnt enough to justify this level of spending.

National RG Development
- like National U20s is where athletes have been for over 100 years developed. Now in the world of full time athletes its important that fringe FG players and the best juniors develop in strong professional environment

Part time player development is well served by NSW Cup and QLD Cup
- this allows players to work study and still play without the pressures of NRL full time demands including travel demands

By having Penrith Canterbury Manly Warriors Newcastle Wests-Tigers clubs move up to National RG - it opens the way for expansion at NSW Cup level

By adding teams like people want to at NSW Cup eg Windsor, St Marys, Western Division, Riverina, Fiji, North Coast still allows the fan base to grow

Even U20s today isnt full time. Players are required to work or study fulltime in tandem with their training commitments...

If your Open Age RG was implemented, the majority of these players would not be paid high enough to be fulltime footballers and they few who are would be spending most of their time in the NRL camp.

A State Championship style will have this same compination of fringe FGers, semi-professionals and amateurs who do it for shits and giggles. Either way, the players pushing to make first grade will still be spending most of their time in the NRL squad while the rest get together maybe 3 evenings a week after work/uni.

A NRG will not raise the standard as you seem to imagine it will, but it will cost an assload (both in expences and what is los in the distruction of the QLD/NSW Cups)...

 

[alien]

Something else that needs to be considered is have a look at the example of Norths being the feeder club to Souths, and then look at a fringe first grader like Gray. Say Madge sent Gray to play for the Bears, but wanted him to play wing for the Bears, so he has more experience on the wing, but say the Bears coach wanted him to play centre instead. I don't think Madge can tell the Bears coach where to play him, but if Souths had their own reserve grade team, with Madge being the Head Coach of the club, he would have the authority where the NRL squad players played (the ones in reserve grade), and could also influence the reserve grade coach of the style the reserve grade team plays, so if some of those players came up to first grade, they would already be used to that style of play.

 

[Hello, I'm The Doctor]

Something else that needs to be considered is have a look at the example of Norths being the feeder club to Souths, and then look at a fringe first grader like Gray. Say Madge sent Gray to play for the Bears, but wanted him to play wing for the Bears, so he has more experience on the wing, but say the Bears coach wanted him to play centre instead. I don't think Madge can tell the Bears coach where to play him, but if Souths had their own reserve grade team, with Madge being the Head Coach of the club, he would have the authority where the NRL squad players played (the ones in reserve grade), and could also influence the reserve grade coach of the style the reserve grade team plays, so if some of those players came up to first grade, they would already be used to that style of play.

There is nothing to say that Souths cant field a team in a State Championship (though under an independent identity.)

Again, this doesnt justify destroying NSW/QLD Cup, spending millions every year on national and international flights and limiting the competition to 16 teams in locations that already boast NRL teams.

In the QLD cup (where the 3 NRL teams are affiliated with several independent clubs) they would still have some say over where players are placed.

(and again, their training would largely be witht the first grade squad, so learning playing styles and team calls would be more of a problem for the State teams; but who doesnt love a bit of ad hoc play in RL)

 

[siv]

While we get good participation by non NRL badged teams

The professional structure of a NRL club continues to dominate NSW Cup as they apply National RG structures and setups and using their better National U20 players

2015 - Newcastle
2014 - Penrith
2013 - Cronulla
2011 - Canterbury
2010 - Canterbury

Thats 5 out of the last 6

The part time structures struggle against the full time structures. Thats why you should let the full tme NRL clubs compete at their level and costs in National RG and allow the part time clubs operate at their level and costs in NSW Cup

 

[East Coast Tiger]

You don't get it.

f**k the nswrl. Their comp is shit, we know. But destroying the far superior qld cup to manufacture a third comp that would still be inferior to the qld cup is simply the worst idea ever. It's so bad even the geniuss who run the NRL and the even bigger geniuss who run the clubs don't want it. That says it all. If the commission did decide to do this they need to be sacked immediately and banned from ever associating with rugby league again. Mind you, this should happen anyway.

 

[no name]

A national reserve grade comp would be superior to Q Cup, it's all about the $ though.

 

[East Coast Tiger]

No it wouldn't.

 

[CC_Roosters]

While we get good participation by non NRL badged teams

The professional structure of a NRL club continues to dominate NSW Cup as they apply National RG structures and setups and using their better National U20 players

2015 - Newcastle
2014 - Penrith
2013 - Cronulla
2011 - Canterbury
2010 - Canterbury

Thats 5 out of the last 6

The part time structures struggle against the full time structures. Thats why you should let the full tme NRL clubs compete at their level and costs in National RG and allow the part time clubs operate at their level and costs in NSW Cup

No forget national RG it is a waste of everyones time and money and geberates no extra interest in the game in areas without nrl clubs. Make ot a level plahing field with every nrl club having an affiliate in nsw cup without nrl branding. then incorporate full time teams with the branding of the CRL divisional sides and funded by ARLC grants (i.e tv money) and align each with an nrl club for farming out players.

6 sydney clubs- Norths, wests, newtown, wenty plus 2 more
Newcastle rebels
Central coast centurions or wyong
Illawarra steelers
Western rams- bathurst
Bidgee bulls- wagga
Greater northern tigers- tamworth
East coast dolphins- coffs
Auckland- mt smart
Fiji

Then with toowoomba making noises about the q cup we could have w 15 team leagues creating a national second division with the state championship on GF day. Perfect.

 

[siv]

Whats your response to the NRL clubs that tried this model and reverted back to being NRL badged clubs ?

Eg Rebels were tried and shutdown by their NRL club after only 12 months

 

[siv]

You don't get it.

f**k the nswrl. Their comp is shit, we know. But destroying the far superior qld cup to manufacture a third comp that would still be inferior to the qld cup is simply the worst idea ever. It's so bad even the geniuss who run the NRL and the even bigger geniuss who run the clubs don't want it. That says it all. If the commission did decide to do this they need to be sacked immediately and banned from ever associating with rugby league again. Mind you, this should happen anyway.

How do you feel about the National U20s verses FOGS Colts U20s that runs in QLD ?

National RG would just look the same in QLD ?