OT: Olympics.

[Wheeled Warrior]

The Rubbish I am referring to is that Loader is not part of the conversation with the two most celebrated Olympians in New Zealand history, I am not saying that Snell or Halberg do not deserve their status.

Loader deserves more recognition for sure.

NZ Swimming will never reach that level again with all the Australians and Americans having their academies to rely on and continue to win.

 

[Meth]

Gender eligibility rules furore hits boxing after 46-sec stoppage

Two punches were enough to force Italian Angela Carini to abandon her bout.

www.nzherald.co.nz

Dudes beating the shit out of girls - that’s the Olympic spirit

 

[Meth]

A gold, silver and bronze- seems like a good day

 

[Penrose Warrior]

Gender eligibility rules furore hits boxing after 46-sec stoppage

Two punches were enough to force Italian Angela Carini to abandon her bout.

www.nzherald.co.nz

Dudes beating the shit out of girls - that’s the Olympic spirit

Imane Khelif, as far as I can understand, was born a woman but has DSD (disorder of sex development) which means she has heightened testosterone levels compared to an average woman.

I have zero problem with this, and I thought Caster Semenya (same 'disorder') was horribly treated, as well. This is genetic. Just like Yao Ming was 7'8, Usain Bolt had crazy long tib/fibs, Phelps had incredible lung capacity and a massive wingspan, or whatever, this person has heightened testosterone. Genetically, all of us in this forum have different natural T levels, and height, and slow/fast twitch muscle make-up, lung capacity, and so on. I don't see how this is any different.

Khelif was at the 2021 Olympics, and didn't win a medal. She was disqualified for heightened testosterone levels last year in an event, but again this was organic, not through supplementation.

I'm a fervent critic of athletes who transition from male to female sports and compete unfairly, but this is not that.

 

[Meth]

My mistake. Thanks

That detail wasn’t in the article

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

Imane Khelif, as far as I can understand, was born a woman but has DSD (disorder of sex development) which means she has heightened testosterone levels compared to an average woman.

I think whether she was "born a woman" is the whole point and the live issue here though isn't it? I don't pretend to be an expert on either Khelif or gender differentiation generally, but, for one thing, as far as I know she has XY chromosomes.

Basically, she has some physical markers of a woman and some of a man and so defining which one she is is difficult.

If you simply say "let her be the one she's always considered herself to be" that logic opens the door for trans athletes, which is the concern. The intractable problem as far as I can tell is there is no foolproof and universally accepted definition of what makes someone a man or a woman.

Comparing excess testosterone or XY chromosomes to other physical characteristics is not really helpful, because these characteristics are relevant specifically because they dictate gender. Gender is the one physical characteristic that we widely accept people should be divided by (unless you're in favour of getting rid of women's sport which I doubt anyone seriously is).

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

Also by chance I happened to see her fight live and the behaviour of the Italian was really weird. Initially she basically "called a timeout" and her trainer fixed her headgear, however I'm not sure there was actually anything wrong with it, and I'm pretty sure she should have been disqualified for calling a timeout anyway. Then she gets hit with one more sharp but not devastating shot, walks back to her corner and gives up. After the fight for some reason she seemed mad at her corner (hard to understand given she clearly decided to quit) and then after the decision she started crying and carrying on in the ring.

It was all very performative and seemed barely related to what actually happened in the ring. Even if Khelif is a devastatingly hard puncher for her division, the Italian was not seriously hurt or rocked and you just don't see a boxer who is serious about winning give up that easily.

This was either unrelated to Khelif, the Italian was trying to make a point (which seems insane when your Olympic dream is at stake), or the controversy psyched her out.

 

[SpaceMonkey]

Gender eligibility rules furore hits boxing after 46-sec stoppage

Two punches were enough to force Italian Angela Carini to abandon her bout.

www.nzherald.co.nz

Dudes beating the shit out of girls - that’s the Olympic spirit

The Algerian boxer isn’t trans, she was born female. Sport is inherently unfair, those with genetic advantages win all the time.

 

[Beavers Headgear]

The girl that walked off had a Brent Tate chin, woundnt have thought that’s ideal for boxing

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

I'm now reading that it isn't confirmed that she has XY chromosomes at all. It's really hard to know what to believe these days with all the culture war stuff going on with this issue.

I'm still not entirely clear on what is meant by "she was born female" though, if a person's genetic advantages are made up of physical traits that make their biological gender unclear.

Of course the irony is that in the past someone like this would've probably competed as a woman with no issues, because it was as simple as female genitalia = woman. Transphobic people would have you believe that this is a new issue when in fact we are actually identifying intersex people who would've just been considered women previously.

 

[SpaceMonkey]

I'm now reading that it isn't confirmed that she has XY chromosomes at all. It's really hard to know what to believe these days with all the culture war stuff going on with this issue.

I'm still not entirely clear on what is meant by "she was born female" though, if a person's genetic advantages are made up of physical traits that make their biological gender unclear.

Of course the irony is that in the past someone like this would've probably competed as a woman with no issues, because it was as simple as female genitalia = woman. Transphobic people would have you believe that this is a new issue when in fact we are actually identifying intersex people who would've just been considered women previously.

“Born female” in this case means assigned female at birth and raised female, and presumably her gender wasn’t even questioned until later in life as she matured.

Important to highlight to separate it from the issue of Trans athletes and the attempts of people to conflate the two issues.

 

[Manu Vatuvei]

“Born female” in this case means assigned female at birth and raised female, and presumably her gender wasn’t even questioned until later in life as she matured.

Important to highlight to separate it from the issue of Trans athletes and the attempts of people to conflate the two issues.

100% - although I still think (and I say this from a position of relative scientific ignorance) that there can be a live issue about correctly classifying someone's gender for the purpose of sports even if they were considered female at birth.