OT: Tim Smith MOTM Performance for Wigan 1sts

[ianlovesparra]

He set up TWO tries out of SEVEN.. FFS just because you love the bloke doesn't make him God himself. We won't automatically boost our attack with him here.

You guys just don't get it..."Oh, with Tim we'll score more points..." Again - 2 from 7. Hardly different than what we got at the moment.

However, at the moment, our young halfback isn't an off-the-rails trainwreck who disobeys orders from his boss and is so inconsistent it's not even funny.

If you watch the highlights he does more then set up tries, he marshalls the team around, yelling instructions, setting for the next play, a lot like the way he did in 2005.

Maybe he has turned the corner, maybe he hasn't, but its more then worth taking a chance with a kid with so much talent that could come back to bite us all one day.

 

[ianlovesparra]

the is if statments about every player you buy. Remember Dykes was probably the best 5-8 in the comp when we bout him, only for him to turn out relay bad. Monaghan, Head, Mortimer... all have big if statements on them. Timmy is atleast playing good footy, we may be able to manage his mental state. I would love a combo of;

1. Hayne

6 K. Keating
7 Smith

9 M. Keating

13. Mateo

We would actually look like we have goot strength in important positions, even more pleasing is that the players are all parramatta jnrs

that is 100000 times better than

1. burt

6. mateo
7. keating

9. keating

13. lowrie

 

[Eelementary]

I actually think Reddy should be fullback to be honest. Super player, specially at fullback.

But the whole marshalling and yelling...One guy springs to mind...Brett "I cant' be bothered working to prove Coach Anderson wrong so I'm taking my ball and going home now" Finch....

You can yell and clap and marshall a team around as much as you want. But whether they listen is another thing, and sometimes the way Tim carried on was a bit much. For example, he threw a shocking pass to a teammate, they dropped it and he blew up. It was his fault, really.

 

[TheMoneyBoxMan]

Well done Eelementary! You have nailed Tim Smith's problems. Your posts are sensible and well thought out. Pity it's falling on deaf (or dumb) ears. Seriously for me there are too many "ifs". If he wants to come back, if he takes all the restrictions placed on him, if he doesnt drink. Who would enforce all these restrictions? Noone could spend 24/7 with the guy to make sure. And then IF he ran off the rails again we have wasted time,effort ,money and disrupted the team for what? Wasn't all this pressure of him being our saviour and the media scrutiny part of the reason he walked. I think you are spot on Eele - he would be too big a risk.

 

[Eelementary]

Well done Eelementary! You have nailed Tim Smith's problems. Your posts are sensible and well thought out. Pity it's falling on deaf (or dumb) ears. Seriously for me there are too many "ifs". If he wants to come back, if he takes all the restrictions placed on him, if he doesnt drink. Who would enforce all these restrictions? Noone could spend 24/7 with the guy to make sure. And then IF he ran off the rails again we have wasted time,effort ,money and disrupted the team for what? Wasn't all this pressure of him being our saviour and the media scrutiny part of the reason he walked. I think you are spot on Eele - he would be too big a risk.

Thanks, mate.

I do recognise he has talent. But he's be too big a gamble for a club that desperately needs to rebuild.

 

[yy_cheng]

I was a massive Timmy Fan.

But we need to look long term to build the team around a very good half.

Therefore, I would not suggest Mortimer, KK nor T. Smith.

However, possibly Head, maybe Monas.

Morts and KK can be the 5/8th in a support role.

If T.Smith comes back to the NRL and puts together 3 solid seasons, then I would consider buying him back then. But with so little feathers in his cap, I would just wait.

 

[Bazal]

I'll tell you right now - I have a lot of experience with alcoholism. Unfortunately it ran rampant through my family (still does, but I'm so tired of it that, sadly, I just don't care any more). And alcoholics RARELY change.

If he has proven he has his head screwed on, and he works hard, then fine - with the right incentives it would probably work.

As for the inconsistency, you're right - most young halfbacks are inconsistent. But my bane with his inconsistency is that his mentality seemingly changed - first two years he showed remarkable maturity and composure to read the game and see whether pushing for a try was a viable option or not. After that he seemed to get too cocky and push too hard for a try, instead of pulling back and getting a repeat set. I can't understand how he would change so dramatically in the space of 18 months or so. Coaching advice? Perhaps...

If we did bring him back, though, he'd be hopeless behind our current forward pack. So right now the focus should be on recruiting a good pack - then we can focus on a halfback imo.

Just on that Eele...I agree with your point about alcoholism. But the question I have is this. Is Tim Smith an alcoholic? I don't think he is. I've had similar problems to what Tim Smith has, and still do, and the thing I found was that alcohol was a form of release more than something I felt I needed. Much like the medication for the disorder, it made me feel better (and, strangely enough, more in control) but without some of the fairly nasty side effects. I was hitting the drink hard 3 or 4 times a week at that stage. Once I found the right treatment for the underlying condition, I stopped drinking so much within a month. I honestly believe that if Tim can find that right treatment, then he will improve very quickly.

Anyway, I still don't think he should come back at this stage, this is just a point about his condition from my POV

 

[Eelementary]

Just on that Eele...I agree with your point about alcoholism. But the question I have is this. Is Tim Smith an alcoholic? I don't think he is. I've had similar problems to what Tim Smith has, and still do, and the thing I found was that alcohol was a form of release more than something I felt I needed. Much like the medication for the disorder, it made me feel better (and, strangely enough, more in control) but without some of the fairly nasty side effects. I was hitting the drink hard 3 or 4 times a week at that stage. Once I found the right treatment for the underlying condition, I stopped drinking so much within a month. I honestly believe that if Tim can find that right treatment, then he will improve very quickly.

Anyway, I still don't think he should come back at this stage, this is just a point about his condition from my POV

Interesting.

I don't know Tim personally, so my comments about his condition (whatever it may actually be) is just drawn purely from personal experience. I base my observation around 2 main points:

(1) society in the last decade or so has really seen a need to diagnose social disorders, and often incorrectly; for example, ADHD used to be the 'flavour of the month' diagnosis for kids who behaved erratically at school a few years ago. Now it has seemingly been replaced by bi-polar disorder.

(2) he seemingly cannot exist without alcohol; every time he was in trouble here he had a few drinks; by the reports I have read when he went to that open training session in Wigan he was drunk again.

Now, this is not to say that Tim Smith doesn't ave bi-polar disorder - he may well have a serious personality disorder.

It's just that, given society's predisposition to want to find an underlying issue to soften the blow as to why someone's behaviour is so erratic - particularly someone who is in the media constantly -, and given the ties with alcohol, I personally feel unsure that he really does suffer fro bi-polar disorder. I feel he was rashly diagnosed, in a sort of excuse for his actions.

As you said, though, with proper treatment (and a proper diagnosis, if it turns out my feeling that he was incorrectly diagnosed to begin with is correct) he should be much better. And that would be great for him from a personal perspective.

 

[hineyrulz]

By the looks DA is cleaning out the entire roster, we have new leadership in 3P. Hopefully a whole new Parra club with a new attitude. Why would we go backwards and sign someone like Smith????

Who might i add left the club and was paid out, said he needed time away from footy to only a matter of weeks latter sign a fat contract in England. He has all the talent in the world but off the field he is a basket case. We have had enough of those players to last us a lifetime.

 

[yy_cheng]

Orford is off contract.

Would people consider him?

 

[hineyrulz]

No way!! And he would want plenty.

 

[Eelementary]

Orford is OK, I guess. Certainly experienced.

 

[Bazal]

Interesting.

I don't know Tim personally, so my comments about his condition (whatever it may actually be) is just drawn purely from personal experience. I base my observation around 2 main points:

(1) society in the last decade or so has really seen a need to diagnose social disorders, and often incorrectly; for example, ADHD used to be the 'flavour of the month' diagnosis for kids who behaved erratically at school a few years ago. Now it has seemingly been replaced by bi-polar disorder.

(2) he seemingly cannot exist without alcohol; every time he was in trouble here he had a few drinks; by the reports I have read when he went to that open training session in Wigan he was drunk again.

Now, this is not to say that Tim Smith doesn't ave bi-polar disorder - he may well have a serious personality disorder.

It's just that, given society's predisposition to want to find an underlying issue to soften the blow as to why someone's behaviour is so erratic - particularly someone who is in the media constantly -, and given the ties with alcohol, I personally feel unsure that he really does suffer fro bi-polar disorder. I feel he was rashly diagnosed, in a sort of excuse for his actions.

As you said, though, with proper treatment (and a proper diagnosis, if it turns out my feeling that he was incorrectly diagnosed to begin with is correct) he should be much better. And that would be great for him from a personal perspective.

I agree with the first point for sure, too many people use things like bipolar and ADD as an excuse, especially for poor parenting or a lack of self control. However, I have little reason to believe that Tim Smith was doing this. Obviously, like you, I can only look at the parallels between his situation and my own and as a result I could be 100% wrong. But in my experience, alcoholics tend to fall into two behavioural categories; they're either overly aggressive or self destructive. I don't think Tim Smith is either...I think, in all of his incidents, he was simply acting like a drunken lout. He did nothing that I don't see down the pub on a weekly basis, really. And that fits in with my experience with my own personality disorder; when I was on the drink, I felt so comparatively good that I acted out and did some things I may not have usually done even if I had just been my normal self on the drink. But because of the fact that I believed I felt so much different and so much better (and the deep relief has a lot to do with it as well) I acted out more than I normally would...

 

[Eelementary]

I agree with the first point for sure, too many people use things like bipolar and ADD as an excuse, especially for poor parenting or a lack of self control. However, I have little reason to believe that Tim Smith was doing this. Obviously, like you, I can only look at the parallels between his situation and my own and as a result I could be 100% wrong. But in my experience, alcoholics tend to fall into two behavioural categories; they're either overly aggressive or self destructive. I don't think Tim Smith is either...I think, in all of his incidents, he was simply acting like a drunken lout. He did nothing that I don't see down the pub on a weekly basis, really. And that fits in with my experience with my own personality disorder; when I was on the drink, I felt so comparatively good that I acted out and did some things I may not have usually done even if I had just been my normal self on the drink. But because of the fact that I believed I felt so much different and so much better (and the deep relief has a lot to do with it as well) I acted out more than I normally would...

Interesting points. I hope he can recover.

And I hope he can rediscover his happiness.

 

[caylo]

I agree with the first point for sure, too many people use things like bipolar and ADD as an excuse, especially for poor parenting or a lack of self control. However, I have little reason to believe that Tim Smith was doing this. Obviously, like you, I can only look at the parallels between his situation and my own and as a result I could be 100% wrong. But in my experience, alcoholics tend to fall into two behavioural categories; they're either overly aggressive or self destructive. I don't think Tim Smith is either...I think, in all of his incidents, he was simply acting like a drunken lout. He did nothing that I don't see down the pub on a weekly basis, really. And that fits in with my experience with my own personality disorder; when I was on the drink, I felt so comparatively good that I acted out and did some things I may not have usually done even if I had just been my normal self on the drink. But because of the fact that I believed I felt so much different and so much better (and the deep relief has a lot to do with it as well) I acted out more than I normally would...

Well I thought he was self distructive... he went from a fairly happy young adult, to someone who acted like he had nothing to live for. His actions pointed to someone with clinical depression who took to alcohol as an escape. He drank to because he was young, but for mental reason IMO. I think he had this underlying condition from when he trained us in Yr 11 and 12 footy. All it took was media scruitiny and that was enough to send him over the edge, he couldnt handle the preasure of the game... which is a sad thing. This could change, or he may never realize his full potential in the NRL. Timmy I think would do well with a father figure in League (and for some time I think that was B.Smith), someone he respected and could talk to with his issues. I hope he can find that where ever he decides to play his football

 

[lingard]

Listen, I`ve worked in mental health for many years. When you`re looking to make a diagnosis, it`s a lot like detective work. In fact, it is detective work. It usually takes time to make a diagnosis. It`s not like diagnosing appendicitis or a broken leg. There aren`t any tests that you can perform to see if someone has bi-polar disorder. In effect, all mental health diagnoses are nothing more than expert opinions. Psychiatry is an inexact science; and often the very best thing a psychiatrist or a detective can say is, "I don`t know." One should NEVER jump to conclusions.
What this means is that we, on this forum cannot possibly give any opinions on Tim Smith`s 'illness'. He may have bi-polar, he may be an alcoholic, he may have a personality disorder. He may have all three, even. Or he may just be a dick-head. Let`s hope he`s not.
I agree that Tim`s 'diagnosis' did seem convenient at the time, but then again, lots of alcoholics get diagnosed with bi-polar disorder somewhere along the line, because the 'symptoms' sometimes have a degree of similarity about them. But you can be both.
In the end, I don`t want Tim Smith back because:
1. Mental illness and alcoholism doesn`t necessarily excuse a person`s behaviour.
2. I think Tim Smith was INCREDIBLY over-rated as a player. It seems that absence makes the heart grow fonder for some people.

 

[caylo]

Listen, I`ve worked in mental health for many years. When you`re looking to make a diagnosis, it`s a lot like detective work. In fact, it is detective work. It usually takes time to make a diagnosis. It`s not like diagnosing appendicitis or a broken leg. There aren`t any tests that you can perform to see if someone has bi-polar disorder. In effect, all mental health diagnoses are nothing more than expert opinions. Psychiatry is an inexact science; and often the very best thing a psychiatrist or a detective can say is, "I don`t know." One should NEVER jump to conclusions.
What this means is that we, on this forum cannot possibly give any opinions on Tim Smith`s 'illness'. He may have bi-polar, he may be an alcoholic, he may have a personality disorder. He may have all three, even. Or he may just be a dick-head. Let`s hope he`s not.
I agree that Tim`s 'diagnosis' did seem convenient at the time, but then again, lots of alcoholics get diagnosed with bi-polar disorder somewhere along the line, because the 'symptoms' sometimes have a degree of similarity about them. But you can be both.
In the end, I don`t want Tim Smith back because:
1. Mental illness and alcoholism doesn`t necessarily excuse a person`s behaviour.
2. I think Tim Smith was INCREDIBLY over-rated as a player. It seems that absence makes the heart grow fonder for some people.

Your right, but I am a Medical Student with limited studies on the area... more importantly I knew Tim for a period of about 3 years before he broke into first grade. Also, I have a best friend who has been clinically depressed for about 5-6 years now and even before Timmy broke into the NRL he showed symptoms of being depressed. Whether he has bi-polar or not, I am not a doctor and I wouldn't be able to make that judgment but i can say that I defiantly believe that Timmy was suffers from depression and the pressure of the NRL pushed him to drinking. Otherwise why would anyone in their right mind go on a bender 24 hours after being told he is on a alcohol ban. It just doesn't make logical sense and other than Timmy alcohol issues he was not noted as a difficult or uncooperative person.

 

[Eelementary]

Listen, I`ve worked in mental health for many years. When you`re looking to make a diagnosis, it`s a lot like detective work. In fact, it is detective work. It usually takes time to make a diagnosis. It`s not like diagnosing appendicitis or a broken leg. There aren`t any tests that you can perform to see if someone has bi-polar disorder. In effect, all mental health diagnoses are nothing more than expert opinions. Psychiatry is an inexact science; and often the very best thing a psychiatrist or a detective can say is, "I don`t know." One should NEVER jump to conclusions.
What this means is that we, on this forum cannot possibly give any opinions on Tim Smith`s 'illness'. He may have bi-polar, he may be an alcoholic, he may have a personality disorder. He may have all three, even. Or he may just be a dick-head. Let`s hope he`s not.
I agree that Tim`s 'diagnosis' did seem convenient at the time, but then again, lots of alcoholics get diagnosed with bi-polar disorder somewhere along the line, because the 'symptoms' sometimes have a degree of similarity about them. But you can be both.
In the end, I don`t want Tim Smith back because:
1. Mental illness and alcoholism doesn`t necessarily excuse a person`s behaviour.
2. I think Tim Smith was INCREDIBLY over-rated as a player. It seems that absence makes the heart grow fonder for some people.

All I am saying is that there tends to be a tendency with over-diagnosing 'flavour of the month' illnesses - ADHD a few years back, depression before that (let me categorically state I am NOT saying it's a laughing matter or that depression is to be taken lightly) and now seemingly bi-polar disorder.

Tim may well be bi-polar or depressed or simply an alcoholic or a combination. But he was diagnosed very quickly, and it was, all things considered, a rather simple diagnosis.

Personally, I think the problem lies with psychiatrists/psychologists getting a little lazy or complacent, or perhaps having an agenda (eg: they're conducting a study or writing a paper detailing bi-polar/ADHD/depression in society and find these cases easy to support their work) and simply over-diagnosing an illness which usually shares borders with others - depression and bi-polar share many common borders, and if you're not really paying attention then you could easily diagnose it as bi-polar when it was simply depression, for example.

And then there's the 'celebrity' aspect - Tim Smith may not be a huge, well-known celebrity, but he is famous nonetheless. Some therapists have lately show tendencies to want to minimise the damage caused to society by diagnosing a celebrity with a more serious or misunderstood illness.

 

[lingard]

Your right, but I am a Medical Student with limited studies on the area... more importantly I knew Tim for a period of about 3 years before he broke into first grade. Also, I have a best friend who has been clinically depressed for about 5-6 years now and even before Timmy broke into the NRL he showed symptoms of being depressed. Whether he has bi-polar or not, I am not a doctor and I wouldn't be able to make that judgment but i can say that I defiantly believe that Timmy was suffers from depression and the pressure of the NRL pushed him to drinking. Otherwise why would anyone in their right mind go on a bender 24 hours after being told he is on a alcohol ban. It just doesn't make logical sense and other than Timmy alcohol issues he was not noted as a difficult or uncooperative person.

Why? Umm...because he`s an alcoholic and simply can`t control it?

 

[lingard]

All I am saying is that there tends to be a tendency with over-diagnosing 'flavour of the month' illnesses - ADHD a few years back, depression before that (let me categorically state I am NOT saying it's a laughing matter or that depression is to be taken lightly) and now seemingly bi-polar disorder.

Tim may well be bi-polar or depressed or simply an alcoholic or a combination. But he was diagnosed very quickly, and it was, all things considered, a rather simple diagnosis.

Personally, I think the problem lies with psychiatrists/psychologists getting a little lazy or complacent, or perhaps having an agenda (eg: they're conducting a study or writing a paper detailing bi-polar/ADHD/depression in society and find these cases easy to support their work) and simply over-diagnosing an illness which usually shares borders with others - depression and bi-polar share many common borders, and if you're not really paying attention then you could easily diagnose it as bi-polar when it was simply depression, for example.

And then there's the 'celebrity' aspect - Tim Smith may not be a huge, well-known celebrity, but he is famous nonetheless. Some therapists have lately show tendencies to want to minimise the damage caused to society by diagnosing a celebrity with a more serious or misunderstood illness.

The whole point I was trying to make is that it is often extremely difficult to make a psychiatric diagnosis. That`s it. It`s not 'laziness'. Sure, some psychiatrists might get a bit carried away with their own abilities; but a lot of G.P`s are like that too - they`ll jump to a diagnosis way before all the test results have come back, because they believe too much in their own clinical judgement. Overall, though, most psychiatrists are very consciencious, caring people. The very nature of psychiatry is that it is vague at best, and downright impossible at worst. That isn`t the psychiatrist`s fault or the mental health clinician`s fault. We simply don`t have any tools except our own observations and the evidence given to us by others. I know this isn`t the forum to be discussing this, but I just wanted to get it out there.