Peter Beatte NRL 360 - expansion

[Stallion]

You've gone off topic. You said that North Sydney was being ignored. I pointed out that Manly was in Northern Sydney and that there are eight other teams in Sydney (7.5 if you take out the Illawarra half of the dragons).

Not sure what the rest of your waffle has to do with our discussion, other than saying that North Sydney is being ignored and you will solve that by moving the bears to the Central Coast

It's not waffle. And I give it back as much as I receive it! You seem to think the people supporting the maintenance of existing established clubs are not keen for clubs elsewhere? This is totally wrong. Many of the people that understand the importance of the Sydney clubs are also very keen to see additional clubs. Absolutely keen on clubs in Perth, Brisbane 2 and wherever else is feasible! So trumpeting that the added markets are not part of these people thoughts is both misleading and out of line. The Bears solution is valid(and it involves consolidation with expansion ) and Manly Warringah have extensive support just like the other Sydney based clubs! Discarding such clubs is discarding the competition's soul and foundations. Not a good look or necessary!

 

[Stallion]

Manly is in Northern Sydney

Also, just so you know, the following teams are also based in Sydney:

• Sydney Roosters
• South Sydney Rabbitohs
• St George Illawarra Dragons
• Cronulla Sharks
• Canterbury Bulldogs
• Parramatta Eels
• Penrith Panthers
• Wests Tigers

The good folk of Sydney have an abundance of choice if they wish to follow and NRL team. Almost no-one identifies with a suburb anymore. Kids don't choose a team because they are from a nearby suburb - they may choose a team to follow because they are from the city they live in, sure, but not suburb. The other major factor in kids picking a team to follow is because of a player they love to watch.

You are so wrong!

 

[The Great Dane]

It's not waffle. And I give it back as much as I receive it! You seem ti thi k the people supporting the maintenance of existing established are not keen fir clubs elsewhere? This is totally wrong. Many of the people that understand the importance of the Sydney clubs are also very keen to see additional clubs. Absolutely keen on clubs in Perth, Brisbane 2 and wherever else is feasible! So trumpeting that the added markets are not part of these people thoughts is both misleading andcout of line. The Bears solution is valid(and it involves consolideation with expansion ) and Manly Warringah have extensive support just like the other Sydney based clubs! Discarding such clubs is discarding the competition's soul and foundations. Not a good look or necessary!

I have a question Stallion, how many clubs do you think that the NRL can support?

 

[Stallion]

I have a question Stallion, how many clubs do you think that the NRL can support?

It's not a case of support. The NRL should be at twenty teams right now. This code is good enough to be successful with additional clubs! And with proactive scheduling more teams as deemed strategically necessary within a conference style set up (similar to football in the USA-all clubs with equal status) Right now the current clubs plus the Central Coast Bears, Brisbane Dolphins , West Coast Pirates & take your pick (eg:Adelaide Dingoes , West Melbourne Magpies?,Wellington Orcas) should have been at play but the code suffered an untimely split in 1997 and the current scenario is the reality. I would also suggest a few name changes as well: East Sydney Roosters, Balmain Campbelltown Tigers and Auckland Warriors-(with green,blue,red &white colours).

 

[titoelcolombiano]

The NRL are clearly wrong if they don't think that at least twenty teams should participate in it's competition into the future. There is plenty of room for this more deserving code. And the implosion of established clubs isn't necessary. So why implode!?

Which four teams would you add and how will they be financed? The NRL haven't expanded since 2007 so they clearly see this as an issue.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

I would suggest that regarding Manly Warringah as insignificant and not worthy of a rightfull place in the NRL would have highly negative consequences for the code. The same with any other esrablished club you choose to dismiss. That's about the bottom line. You are failing to recognise and appreciate the massive notoriety these clubs have Australia wide. It's big ! Bigger than you think!

Let's have a look at the Manly scenario:

The Sea Eagles average 8 - 10k crowds in a bad season and max 15k in a good season, not 100% of which will be lost to the game if the Sea Eagles are relegated to NSW Cup, some, yes, but not all. That then frees up a spot in the NRL for Perth who will easily match 8 - 10k average crowds to begin with and given time have a much higher ceiling than 15k. Perth has the added bonus of adding value to the TV deal that Manly just can't add as they offer a new market and timeslot.

I know you think that you can have both and we can have 20 teams but the NRL clearly don't agree with you or find 20 teams financially feasable. I know your preferred currency is not dollars but goodwill, but dollars pay the bills and goodwill doesn't.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

Souths v Roosters averages 21,241 from 2009-2017

Roosters v St.George at SFS average 38,054 from 2010-2018

Parra v Tigers at ANZ averages around 28,798 since games moved there in 2014

Souths v Canterbury average 29,321 since 2012 at ANZ

Thanks for the figures. So we have:

Broncos v Cowboys at Suncorp averages over 40k
Roosters v Dragons at Allianz 38k
Broncos v Storm at Suncorp averages over 35k
Broncos v Warriors at Suncorp averages over 30k
Souths v Dogs at ANZ 29k
Parra v Tigers at ANZ 28k
Storm v Warriors at AAMI averages over 22k
Storm v Broncos at AAMi averages over 20k
Cowboys v Broncos at 1300 smiles averages around 25k

There you go @Stallion - the above list shows you exactly which teams are most important to the league and it also clearly shows that the NRL has big Sydney clubs and small Sydney clubs.

So can we now put to bed the theory that all Sydney clubs are critical to the NRL and that's all that matters? It is clear that in the current day, there is a mixture of Sydney and Expansion clubs that are critical to the NRL as I've been telling you all along.

Move along any Sydney clubs that aren't performing in the future and replace them with big city teams such as Perth and Adelaide which give us access to new large population markets, new time-slots and the ability to match the lower performing Sydney clubs for average crowds, memberships and sponsorship initially but with a much higher ceiling for growth.

Also, cut our losses and move along any expansion clubs that just aren't working into the future and use the spot for a better expansion option (Titans license given to Brisbane 2 comes to mind).

I'm happy to give all current clubs a go under the current funding model and give them a chance to get their house in order but at the end of the day the game's growth can't be stunted by clubs that can't be bothered to do so. We've done that for 100 years and now it is time to grow into the sport that you always say that we should be.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

It's not waffle. And I give it back as much as I receive it! You seem to think the people supporting the maintenance of existing established clubs are not keen for clubs elsewhere? This is totally wrong. Many of the people that understand the importance of the Sydney clubs are also very keen to see additional clubs. Absolutely keen on clubs in Perth, Brisbane 2 and wherever else is feasible! So trumpeting that the added markets are not part of these people thoughts is both misleading and out of line. The Bears solution is valid(and it involves consolidation with expansion ) and Manly Warringah have extensive support just like the other Sydney based clubs! Discarding such clubs is discarding the competition's soul and foundations. Not a good look or necessary!

I'll let you answer my question in another post on which teams you would add and how you would fund a 20 team comp.

On Norths, you are contradicting yourself. On one hand you are saying that we need a strong presence in North Sydney, you are not fond of teams abandoning their traditional area, North Sydney is being overrun by AFL and Union (lol) and yet your solution is to move the bears to the Central Coast - solid logic there.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

You are so wrong!

Please go on - which part of that post was wrong?

 

[titoelcolombiano]

I believe for Sydney to grow they need better stadiums which are happening.
In each round Sydney games should be played Sunday afternoon bar one for TV at night on another day.
A blackout of Sydney TV games in Sydney instead taking Sydney teams playing outside the city eg. Newcastle v Parra would be live.


Sydney doesn't work like that. It is very tribal something that should be seen as a strength of the game rather then a negative.
Yes Manly is in northern Sydney yet the people who once followed Norths with passion will not follow Manly, and please no soulless franchise like the Northern Eagles. Today their is no passion for league on the North Shore.

Why can we not have 20 teams, add the Bears, NZ2, Brisbane2 and Perth.

I agree with many of your points and I am happy to give all clubs a go under the current funding arrangements. I just don't want poor performing clubs holding back the growth of the game indefinately into the future because..... tradition.

If there is no passion for RL on the North Shore and our only club there is averaging 8 - 10k crowds, then put then in NSW Cup and replace them with Perth that will easily match that average and then grow much higher than Manly's ceiling of 15k. Plus they will give us an additional TV slot (paying for themselves).

My point is that there are many traditional, tribal brands in Sydney that are critical to the comp, absolutely. But this doesn't apply as a blanket rule to all Sydney clubs and some poor performing clubs are holding the game back because the NRL clearly doesn't find it feasable to expand to 20 teams.

 

[Stallion]

Which four teams would you add and how will they be financed? The NRL haven't expanded since 2007 so they clearly see this as an issue.

Central Coast Bears, Brisbane Dolphins, West Coast Pirates, Wellington Orcas. These clubs as it seems the infrastructure is there with respects to juniors, stadium and demand. No doubt smart businesses will get on board but as their is no indication of such strategic planning then ofcourse sponsorship isn't a factor. Remembering due to the lack of direction from the league a major sponsor /backer in John Singleton gave up out of frustration. Rugby league is an extremely easy and entertaining sport to view. The sponsors would be on board however no formal commitments can be made till the league let people know.

 

[Stallion]

I agree with many of your points and I am happy to give all clubs a go under the current funding arrangements. I just don't want poor performing clubs holding back the growth of the game indefinately into the future because..... tradition.

If there is no passion for RL on the North Shore and our only club there is averaging 8 - 10k crowds, then put then in NSW Cup and replace them with Perth that will easily match that average and then grow much higher than Manly's ceiling of 15k. Plus they will give us an additional TV slot (paying for themselves).

My point is that there are many traditional, tribal brands in Sydney that are critical to the comp, absolutely. But this doesn't apply as a blanket rule to all Sydney clubs and some poor performing clubs are holding the game back because the NRL clearly doesn't find it feasable to expand to 20 teams.

Like I've stated the NRL have been incorrectly advised before and have a track record of being mislead in many facets of the game. This is another example.Their is no issue with the established clubs in Sydney. The only notable one being that the Bears deserve a place in the sun and it should be on the Central Coast. Other than that the competition should be proactively working toward additional clubs in Brisbane,Perth, Adelaide, NZ and even Melbourne2. The widespread familiarity of the Sydney clubs are a massive asset. There history is part and parcel of top flight Australian sport The competition should use this advantage of credibility via longevity in enabling more expansion clubs to join in on the "fun". Not have the reason for joining dissapated before their eyes and have widespread bitterness and resentment as a product of ridding well established clubs.

 

[Stallion]

I'll let you answer my question in another post on which teams you would add and how you would fund a 20 team comp.

On Norths, you are contradicting yourself. On one hand you are saying that we need a strong presence in North Sydney, you are not fond of teams abandoning their traditional area, North Sydney is being overrun by AFL and Union (lol) and yet your solution is to move the bears to the Central Coast - solid logic there.

No contradiction on Norths. It would be a combined effort with North Sydney and Central Coast links throughout Both areas would benefit and I guarantee junior numbers would bounce back with the Bears back in the Big League. (GOSFORD & North Sydney )

 

[Stallion]

Please go on - which part of that post was wrong?

Juniors play for various and numerous reasons Some are attracted to the mascots! Some like team colours! Others like a certain player. And many support because that's what their family support. Some stick to the local team! It's a very personal thing when someone follows a team. The reasons can be many or just one. So it's definitely not just a player. So yes I reiterate and reflect on your comment about a kids decision in choosing a club on just a player as being WRONG.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

Juniors play for various and numerous reasons Some are attracted to the mascots! Some like team colours! Others like a certain player. And many support because that's what their family support. Some stick to the local team! It's a very personal thing when someone follows a team. The reasons can be many or just one. So it's definitely not just a player. So yes I reiterate and reflect on your comment about a kids decision in choosing a club on just a player as being WRONG.

In the modern era when you can live in a dozen different suburbs within a city over your lifetime, no one really identifies with a suburb anymore. 8.5 teams in Sydney is more than enough. If Manly went to NSW Cup from next year and were replaced by Perth, give it 20 - 30 years and no young kid growing up in Northern Sydney would care that either Norths or Manly were ever in the NRL. If they are into RL then they will follow one of the other teams from there city or mabe even a team from a different city. Perth however would have probably grown a nice 20k niche following and providing healthy TV ratings. And the game will be bigger as a whole because of it.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

No contradiction on Norths. It would be a combined effort with North Sydney and Central Coast links throughout Both areas would benefit and I guarantee junior numbers would bounce back with the Bears back in the Big League. (GOSFORD & North Sydney )

Save RL in North Sydney by sending their team to the Central Coast - ok. Good one! Whilst we are at it, let's revitalise RL in Manly by sending their team to Perth.

 

[titoelcolombiano]

Like I've stated the NRL have been incorrectly advised before

What do you base this claim on?

 

[titoelcolombiano]

Central Coast Bears, Brisbane Dolphins, West Coast Pirates, Wellington Orcas. These clubs as it seems the infrastructure is there with respects to juniors, stadium and demand. No doubt smart businesses will get on board but as their is no indication of such strategic planning then ofcourse sponsorship isn't a factor. Remembering due to the lack of direction from the league a major sponsor /backer in John Singleton gave up out of frustration. Rugby league is an extremely easy and entertaining sport to view. The sponsors would be on board however no formal commitments can be made till the league let people know.

How do you plan on dealing with the club chairmen / CEO's when they politics get involved as you try and divide the 16 club TV money by 20?

 

[Stallion]

In the modern era when you can live in a dozen different suburbs within a city over your lifetime, no one really identifies with a suburb anymore. 8.5 teams in Sydney is more than enough. If Manly went to NSW Cup from next year and were replaced by Perth, give it 20 - 30 years and no young kid growing up in Northern Sydney would care that either Norths or Manly were ever in the NRL. If they are into RL then they will follow one of the other teams from there city or mabe even a team from a different city. Perth however would have probably grown a nice 20k niche following and providing healthy TV ratings. And the game will be bigger as a whole because of it.

? So you abandone an established area on that logic!? Incredible! Lol

 

[Stallion]

Save RL in North Sydney by sending their team to the Central Coast - ok. Good one! Whilst we are at it, let's revitalise RL in Manly by sending their team to Perth.

? Have you been smoking the funny stuff!