Plane Crashes Into World Trade Centre

[Cronulla_Mania]

FD, its already happening. The anti-war sentiment has definitely got into the university system (here in Sydney anyway), there have already been minor protests, i think you will be looking at a big protest through Sydney streets within the next month. I can't necessarily say i disagree with them, i think that common sense dialogue between the parties would solve a lot more then having bombs going off willy nilly and thousands MORE innocent people dying. Yeah, talking to BinLaden would be near impossible (and not necessary), they should really go to the heart of the situation, which is clearly the problems that exist in the middle east. America and their foreign policy IS the reason why these people have acted this way (once again, im not supporting it in any way)
MFC.

 

[G@v]

Could this be 1968 revisited?

Back in those days it seemed students spent more time protesting than they did studying.

The wheel keeps turning!

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

It could be Gav! Although in the uni that im in, most people seem to be of a pretty 'level headed' manner. Although there is another uni near by that would definitely be well represented in any protests
I couldnt say id be into all the protesting and stuff, its all a little frivilous, because you dont really get much notice, its always portrayed negatively in the media and you usually end up in a paddy wagon because of some over zealous police officer lol (Not talking from personal experience, of course)
Did i hear someone say 'the more things change, the more they stay the same?'
MFC.

 

[G@v]

Wdda I care, right now I'm pissssed.....ooops thats one s too many. ikup!

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

Wow, Gav has managed to go from a coherent poster to a drunkard in 13 minutes! Full credit there champ, im betting he went for the strike of vodka (10 straight up)...
MFC.

 

[G@v]

Sorry Moff, you're becoming inchorehent. And why why does sose this keyboa5rdv seem soooooooo smalll.

 

[Willow]

Comparing Vietnam to Afghanistan....
When the Russians marched into Afghanistan, the US media gleefully called it 'Russia's Vietnam'.
They were right but they promoted it such a way to show the world that the Russians in the 90s were even more stupid than the Americans were in the 60s.
So what does that say about the yanks now?

There are loads of similarities between the Afghanistan / Vietnam conflicts.
Both are/were promoted as 'a fight against evil'.
Both are/were promoted as a war against an ill equipped anduncivilised foe.
Both are/were being used by western leaders for political purposes.
Both are/were being fought in difficult terrain.
Both are/were being defended by soldiers who firmly believe in their cause.
Both are/were widely supported early on byan electorate who were fearful of the enemy.
Thus far, one war (Vietnam) was later condemned as a human catastrophe.

But there is a slight difference. In Vietnam, the fight was against a political ideal, communism. The ultimate aim was to drive the commies out of Vietnam and set it up as a democratic state, protected by the USA.
In Afghanistan, the USA are chasing a shadowy objective, Terrorism. They have effectively potrayed Osama bin Laden as their main target... one man. They haven'treally identified the Taliban as their prime target. They have even said that there is no guarantee that the Taliban will be ousted... so really, victory (in the eyes of the west) will only happen with the death of bin Laden.

This is interesting because while the Vietnam war was initially supported and then opposed, it still had more going for it than the invasion of Afghanistan.
It stands to reason that given time, the war in Afghanistan will go down as an even bigger blunder and with that, the protestors will continue to grow in numbers.

I wouldn't be surprised if in 3 years time, we have an election withthe majority of people voting forany party which has in it's policy, a promise to withdraw Australian troops.

 

[imported_Roopy4246]

America made a lot of mistakes in Vietnam from a military point of view.

The average age of the soldiers sent to Vietnam was 19. In the second WW the average age of soldiers from America was 23. In the first WW it was 27. Added to that, most of the Vietnam soldiers were conscripts.
The American troops in Vietnam were so undisciplined that the most likely way for an American officer to die was to be shot by his own men.

America has learnt from Vietnam. Not the lesson I would like them to learn i.e. to keep their nose out of other peoples business, but they have learnt that a war has to be organised a bit.

In Vietnam they went in with no understanding of the task ahead of them. They started with only a few hundred 'military advisers' and escalated time and time again, but never to a level adequate to do the job. That allowed the North Vietnamese years to learn and plan.

In the gulf war the American troops were all regular army or army reservists with an average age of 26. They were well trained and disciplined. The main difference however between Vietnam and the Gulf war was in planing. The Iraq military resources were assessed and the allied forces were deliberately twice the size needed to do the job.

This current military action seems to be well planed to me. They started by taking out as much of the communications and infrastructure as possible before moving on to the actual troops in the field. The troops they are going to send in soon will be the best trained and equipped soldiers on earth, not the 19 yo boys with three months basic training of the Vietnam war.

Russia did make many of the same mistakes in Afghanistan that America made in Vietnam - but the Americans, or should i say allies, have learnt how to run a war. A lot of the lessons were taught by the poms in the Falklands war. The poms have always known how to clobber a weaker country into submission by the 'never give a sucker an even break' method. The Afghanies are great guerilla fighters - but the allies will throw overwhelming forces at them when the time comes.

 

[Willow]

Yes roopy, I think you're right. The USA have become more expert at organising war since Vietnam. What that says about America and it's allies is open to conjecture.

But I still feel that the basic similarities, which I outlined in my previous post, still exist.
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Non-government aid agencies are again asking for the a cease fire with the bombing of Afghanistan... just so they will have enough time to get food, shelter and clothing supplies through. The main concern is winter is fast approaching and currently millions... yes millions of people are going to suffer.

The country has been a conflict zone for a generation and crop failures have exasperated an already desperate situation. The war has simply made it impossible to get the aid through.

Anyway, the UShave not given any indication that the assault will stop because they too are looking at getting ahead of winter, only from a military viewpoint.

The last I heard, the UN have been trying to work out a way through this.
If the UN are unsuccessful, it appears that come Christmas time, there'll be massive suffering in Afghanistan.

 

[ozbash]

the americans must continue......
http://rawa.false.net/index.html

 

[imported_Aaron C]

I don't know whether it's related to the Trade Centre Terrorist attacks as yet, but another American Airlines plane on route to the Dominican Republic has come down shortly after leaving JFK. The plane went down nose first into a populated neighbourhoodarea of nearby Queens. No survivers are expected. Very Sad indeed.

Aaron C.

 

[Willow]

Looks like an accident Aaron. Terrible coincidence.

 

[Willow]

Kabul has fallen to the Northern Alliance

Reports state that the Taliban have fled Kabul and the Northern Alliance are entering the Afghan capital... apparently with little resistence.
The Northern Alliance are hastily trying to set up an interim government and police force.
No word on where the Taliban officials have pissed off to but it's looks like they're falling back.
Also, there is no word yet from Pakistan who have bones to pick with the Northern Alliance and last month said that they are against the N.A. controlling Afghanistan.

 

[Bebeto in Japan]

Why do I get the feeling that war will escalate in Afghanistan? And how does having the Northern Alliance governing Afghanistanstop terrorism? Have the Americans forgotten what they were doing in Afghanistan in the first place? Will Pakistan who is against the Northern Alliance suddenly change allegances and fight America? I am very confused!

 

[Willow]

Media reports are making it look like Kabul has been liberated. Perhaps it has been. It has to better than it was before.
Still remains to be seen what will happen now.
The TV is showing pics of children dancing, men shaving off their beards (previously taboo) and women are (apparently) going to be better off.
But the N.A. are also seeking out Taliban fighters and executing them. In one incident, 100 'soldiers' were killed while hiding in a school building. It later turned out that these were very young soldiers indeed... children in fact. Whatever the reasoning behind this action, it still sounds a lot like mass murder.

 

[ozbash]

trying to work out these peoples method of reason is a fairly tall order. they think totally different to us,they hold completly different values and are of a baser intellect.ie ,they run on instinct. let them wipe each other out.

the scary bit is, if the remaining taliban head off to the pakistan border,create a huge incident, will pakistan become involved in a manner nuclear ?????
that would certainly solve a lot of problems.

 

[Willow]

"trying to work out these peoples method of reason is a fairly tall order. they think totally different to us"
They are people. People have the same basic needs everywhere. It's the environmentweexist inwhich dictates how we live our lives.
Some of us are luckier than others.

"will pakistan become involved in a manner nuclear ????? that would certainly solve a lot of problems."

Interesting theory there, Ozbash... I'm sure there are many who would agree that this is one way to solve the world's problems.
Ever thought of discussing this with anyone living in Berlin or London? That is, about having a nuclear conflict in the region?
I'm sure your'final solution' would go down a real treat in neighbouring Europe.

 

[imported_Roopy4246]

The situation in Afghanistan is becoming more complex and convoluted by the minute.
The American bombing campaign has been wonderfully successful in routing the Taliban from their entrenched positions and the majority of Afghan Taliban have defected to the Northern alliance side, leaving around 20,000 non Afghani, mostly Arab and Chechan muslims, who are strongly anti-russian, to oppose the former Russian sympathisers amongst the Northern alliance.
The Allies now have the problem of establishing a political system in a country that has had a civil war in progress for 20 years.
God, or maybe Allah, knows how this will be done. Disarming the country seems to be a logical first step, but those guys won't give up their arms easily.
Perhaps a workable solution would be setting up war free zones in the major cities protected by UN troops and allowing all the soldiers to kill each other in the country till they get sick of it.

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

I find it hard to believe anything coming out of Afghanistan ATM. There is only one side of the story coming out, its undoubtedly littered with propaganda.
MFC.

 

[imported_Raidpatch]

Well said MFC

But by all reports through the Western media, the US and its allies campaign is so far a huge success.

Although I think it will be quitesome time before we hear the other side of the story. If ever .....