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Plane Crashes Into World Trade Centre

Willow

Assistant Moderator
Messages
109,631
Well I haven't seen the 'compelling evidence' and I haven't seen the video. Until then, I remain suspicious. That is, I don't trust the word of governments, especially in time of war. Heck knows, they lie enough during peace time.
IMO, military-sanctioned evidence, be it from the Taliban or George Bush should always be viewed as being propoganda first and truth second.

 

Willow

Assistant Moderator
Messages
109,631
The newspaper here has a front page story with a picture of Osama bin Laden with the title ''Osama's last stand!'.
According to the Northern Allinace, he has personally taken command of one thousand troops and is leading then into battle in eastern Afghanistan.
US intelligence isn't convinced of this and have recently said that they think he is hiding in southern Afghanistan.
But if its even half true, this can only mean that bin Laden is nearing the end of his rope. Pure speculation of course but he may be planning to die in battle and therefore become a martyr big time. I would think this is something the western powers would want to avoid.

 
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4,446
I actually typed up a post in here b4 steve but the puter crashed. My main point was about how irritated i was that the Americans are so dumbfounded that there could be a 'traitor' amongst their ranks. It really has irked me...

The American government and governments all around the world have failed to realise just how 'alienated' a significant proportion of the youth in the world feel today. Drug use is at an epidemic level with under 18sthis is not media hype, i can tell you its true. Disenchanted kids are walking into schools and killing as many people as possible. There is a whole generation of people around my age that have grown up having radical and sometimes dangerous views (AND been ignored in large by the gov't and wider society). Australia has the highest rate of youth suicide in the WORLD. Yet the alarm bells have not rung. Government policy is still largely directed away from addressing the real issues associated with the youth. Bandaid solutions such as setting up 'government taskforces' to look out youth problems quite frankly mean shit when there are hundreds of under 18 kids overdosing and committing all other sorts of horrendous crimes every day.

Sorry, perhaps im getting a bit to fired up on this issue
emangry.gif
, it just strikes a little closer to the heart for me then most people. So when an American politicangets on his soapbox and asks, how could a young person commit such a crime, it irks me. Perhaps the time will come one day when the government pulls their finger out, addresses the real issues associated with the youth and somehow put a stop to the mass alienation of youth which leads to drug taking, criminal offense, underage drinking and pretty much every other crime under the sun. Its the actions and activities that one is involved with during their teenage years that influences what they become when they grow up, perhaps the media and government should keep this in mind when looking at the case of this kid in Afghanistan. Perhaps they should try learning something out of this instead of wondering, 'how could someone go against the good 'ol US of A.'

Moffo.


 

Willow

Assistant Moderator
Messages
109,631
MFC, I believe you're referring to John Walker, 20 year old who decided to join the Taliban miltary.
Heconverted to Islam when he was 16 years old.
He is described by his parents as being an introvert and a pacifist who became disillussioned with US foreign policy. They say he left the US to study in Yemen and Pakistan but they lost contact with about six months ago.
Not much else is known about John Walker.
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This an excerpt from CNN
<span> SOUTHERN AFGHANISTAN (AP) - An American who fought with the Taliban was gaunt and dehydrated but in good condition Sunday as he recovered from a gunshot wound to his leg, a Marines spokesman said at the southern Afghan base where the man is being held. John Walker, 20, of Fairfax, Calif., was found holed up with Taliban fighters after northern alliance forces quelled a bloody prison uprising near the northern Afghan city of Mazar-e-Sharif. U.S. authorities took control of him and flew him to the base. Capt. Stewart Upton described Walker's condition as good and said he is being given intravenous fluids. Citing the Geneva Conventions, Upton said Walker is not allowed to talk to reporters or photographers, but is allowed visits by the international Red Cross. Walker's presence has angered many Marines, and senior commanders say privately they will be pleased if his stay is short. ``Anyone who would work with the Taliban are horrible people,'' said Sgt. Erik Knox, 37, of Chicago. A senior military legal adviser, speaking on condition of anonymity, said Marine commanders want Walker off the base as soon as possible and are just waiting for Washington to decide what to do with him. Air Force Gen. Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said Sunday that Walker has been providing useful information. He said no final decision has been made on what to do with him. ``He's been pretty close to the action, and he has provided from the Afghan perspective some useful information,'' Myers said on ``Fox News Sunday.'' ``I think the evidence is pretty strong that he was right in the middle of it.'' Vice President Dick Cheney, speaking on NBC's ``Meet the Press,'' said: ``Somebody will have to make a decision whether he needs to be brought to trial, what the charge might be.'' The Defense Department has classified his status as a ``battlefield detainee.'' In San Francisco, James Brosnahan, a lawyer for Walker's parents, declined comment. Marines also worked Sunday to build a detention center for prisoners of war just outside the walls of their desert camp. Marines spokesman Capt. David Romley said the camp will house any battlefield detainees or prisoners of war - or even civilians - that U.S. military officials want to hold in Afghanistan. Any other detainees would have the same rights as Walker, Romley said. At the site where the detention center was being built, a watch tower overlooks a pen with a nine-foot wall of earth. Barbed wire lies on the ground, presumably to string around the perimeter. The Justice Department has said Americans who have fought for the Taliban or al-Qaida could face treason, murder, conspiracy or other charges. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now apparently, this young bloke has outraged middle America who are demanding that he comes back to the US to face charges of treason. They cannot seem to fathom the possibilty that someone born in America might want to fight against America. The TV pictures I saw showed a rather pathetic looking bag of bones being helped in and out of bed. He didn't look like a threat to the USA at all. But its likely he will be charged with treason. If convicted, he faces a maximum penalty of death.</span>
 
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4,446
Thats the one Willow. My annoyance lies in the fact that instead of trying to understand and learn from this man's situation, all the press (and government) has gone on about it is how shocked they are that someone could possibly go against them. That would have to be about the height of arrogance.

But lets face it, there is much to learn from the behaviour of those as teenagers who rebel against everything that society classifies as being 'good and proper'. Im not talking standard rebelling here, im talking about those who take it to the next level and commit horrendous acts or take part in highly illegal activities...There is much to learn here. To create a better society, i think that it must start with re-educating people when they are young in a more effective manner.

There is a lot to learn from the situation of John Walker. It is a perfect example of a teenager who grew disillusioned with society and acted upon it...

MFC.
 

Willow

Assistant Moderator
Messages
109,631
Aimless is the word that springs to mind although I'm guessing that Walker felt he found the answers. BTW, there's a good chance thats he's not the only US citizen to join this particular branch of Islamic belief.

Iagree with what you're saying MFC. The question 'why?' is rarely uttered. Ever since the Sept 11 catastrophe happened, its been a case of revenge. Anyone in the US media who tries to look under the veneer and ask why, have to suddenly come to terms with the overwhelming view that 'justice must be done'.

Now an American has been found to be fighting against America... and still no one is seriously asking the 'why' question.It appears thatmostAmericans want him convicted and gassed. The revenge factor still being the dominant emotion.

 
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CanadianSteve

Guest
Sure guys, after Sept 11 the Americans shouldn't have responded with force, they should have just sat around and asked why did this happen. If they would just take the time to understand Bin laden and his friends, they would surely stop doing these terrible things wouldn't they?
 
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CanadianSteve

Guest
MFC: Some young Americans find themselves by touring Europe for a year before settling down. Some, like the 2 American Christian girls (and 2 Aussies?) recently released from Afghanistan, go to other countries to help people. John Walker on the other hand, apparently went to Afghanistan, joined forces with the brutal dictatorship of the Taliban, and took up arms against his own country. See any difference?
 

Willow

Assistant Moderator
Messages
109,631
Canadian Steve: First of all, I'd like to thank you for getting thread off the 666... it was hovering there for almost a day.
emwink.gif


But to the point. I can't speak for MFC but I think if you read my post there is no question in my mind that John Walker is confused... I say this as a guess because it's possibly the case that he thinks he has found all the answers. However, I believe that no one wants to seriously get to the bottom of the reasons for these things. It may be an invidual like John Walker or a whole organisation which orchestrates the killing of thousands.
Now Steve,try and tell me that revenge isn't the driving force behind the current military campaign in Afghanistan. Try and think about this without saying 'what do you expect the USA to do'.
Now ask yourself, how do we stop the horror of Sept 11 from ever happening again? Is bombing the crap out of a country going to stop terrorists? Is this going to stop future wars?
In the USA, thousands of people die every year at the hands of other Americans. In New York alone, one civilian is murdered every day. I'm not saying this to justify the actions of terrorists, I'm merely pointing it out to illustrate the complexity of this event and the subsequent fallout. When its all going to stop?

Your comment: "Sure guys, after Sept 11 the Americans shouldn't have responded with force, they should have just sat around and asked why did this happen. If they would just take the time to understand Bin laden and his friends, they would surely stop doing these terrible things wouldn't they?" suggests that you have the answer. The reality is The USA has been well aware of bin Laden for some time and were once buddies with him. I think they have understood him for a long time...even when they were training him.
One answer might be for the US to cease engaging in their own terrorist activities. I expect though, that would be an unpopular notion in America.

On a final note, you raised the example of those nice Christian people and held them up as to being quite different to John Walker. Well of course they are. But with respect, I'm not sure of the relevance. Are you saying that if young people want to travel, they should look to the missionaries as an example of whatthey can do with their lives? I mean, before 'settling down?' Is this a solution?

 
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4,446
Steve, it has been the attitude of ignoring valuable lessons that have led to the repetition of war for thousands of years now. When will people realise that to make significant change for the future, it must begin with educating, and above all, understanding how young people work and think.

Yep, just go straight back and extract revenge. Kill a few thousand and do the americans proud. But Steve, not even the most ambitious of people would dare think that terrorism will be elminated when this war is over. Dont get me wrong, id love to see it dissapear, but lets be realistic here.

Steve, its great that some people find there way in different ways. It does not mean that we should ignore the thousands of kids every year who lose their way and end up committing terrible acts.The thing that most people miss is that these are the people that need help. Im of the believe that no one is beyond help, and im also of the believe that if these 'alienated' people keep on being ignored then there will be more and more radicals, and more and more school yard shootings....

Willow mate, i think you made my point well there....:)

Moff.
 
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legend

Guest
Now everyone knows which side of the fence I have been on throughout this sorry saga but I have to say the Americans have yet again not learned any hard lesson from the events of September 11. They are seeking revenge and retribution for the terrorist attacks and are looking to extend their protracted campaign to Indonesia, Ethiopia and Sudan. That will surely have all the Muslim countries running for cover and the support the U.S currently enjoys, may fast dry up and they could find themselves the target of even more hostile actions from a multitude of fanatics.

They have still failed to ask the question why and even if they had, it is being completely overlooked in favour of showing their military might to the whole world.

Sadly, the ignorance of the majority of the American people has come to the fore through their leaders who now have the scent of blood throughout West Asia and the Middle East and are willing to exterminate anyone who has ever thumbed their collective nose at the U.S. They don't realise more of their own civilians blood will be spilled as a consequence of their continued one-sided foreign policy.

 
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CanadianSteve

Guest
I saw the Israeli Prime Minister on CNN recently. He made the point that the US actions were the best way to respond to terrorism in the short term. I'm paraphrasing, but he said something about how this will act as a deterrence to the terrorists. Of course he was trying to justify his country's retaliation against the Palestinian suicide bombers, but I think he was also right. If the US actions remove Afghanistan as a safe haven for terrorists, and help turn it into a better country at the same time, then I think that will be good. And that's what seems to be happening.
Of course we know these terrorists have patience and long memories, and may wait 10 years to strike again. That's why there also needs to be longer term solutions, such as a peaceful resolution in Israel/Palestine. I hope the US can help make changes that will reduce the causes of terrorism in the future. I know some of you will be skeptical about their willingness to do that. But either way they had to respond to the Sept 11 act of war first.
Also. I would repeat a point I made many posts ago, that even peace in the Middle East might not satisfy someone like bin Laden. He seems bent on destroying Western civilization, or starting a "Holy War" between the West and Islam.
I haven't heard any talk of the US attacking Indonesia, Ethiopia and Sudan next Legend, but Iraq has been mentioned many times on the CNN analysis-type programs. There seems to be evidence of links between bin Laden's men and Iraqi gov't officials, but I don't think the US will invade Iraq without stronger evidence.
As for John Walker, my point was there are better ways to deal with "confusion" and "alienation" than what he has done. It is a big question with no easy answers why young people turn to violent and/or self-destructive behaviour. As a Christian I wish disaffected young people would turn to God instead of drugs, violence, crime, joining terrorist groups, etc. But in a free society like the US some people unfortunately do end up as Timothy McVeigh, John Walker, or the many murderers that Willow referred to. MFC you said you are of their generation (I think); what do you think needs to be done to help all the alienated kids who "lose their way and committ terrible acts"? It would take a lot more counsellors, social workers, etc. to reach them all. I'm being sincere here, not sarcastic - is there a solution to the youth problem you describe?
In any case, whatever brought John Walker to the point of being a Taliban fighter, I don't think we should be surprised at American reaction to finding one of their own taking up arms against their country. I think he will be tried for treason, but not executed
 

imported_T.B

Juniors
Messages
25
Treason, interesting Whether what he did was morally or legally right/wrong, the idea of the charge must raise some questions in a free thinking society. Does it basically suggest that you are legally (and mortally?) bound to the majority opinion of the land you were born in. How does this fit in with freedom of expression/opinion? I always imagined treason as a charge that was handed out if you acted against your own country from within. Leads to the question of: Whether he joined the Taliban before or after America declared war Whether he operated against the US on US soil Whether *his* actions directly affected the US Until the fighting began, did he have any hostile intentions toward the US Basically did he commit treason because of (which one): 1)<span> </span>He initially decided that the Taliban was right 2)<span> </span>He did not renounce his American citizenship before fighting 3)<span> </span>He fought against the Northern alliance / US soldiers 4)<span> </span>He helped the Taliban / US enemies It just seems an unusual case to me, i.e. as opposed to an internal spy during a war Over to the lawyers,<span>TB</span>
 
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CanadianSteve

Guest
Very interesting questions TB. It is different from the usual internal treason case. I guess any charges and decisions will hinge on the American's legal definition of treason.
 

Willow

Assistant Moderator
Messages
109,631
TB raises some excellent points.


Canadian Steve:
"some people...do end up as Timothy McVeigh, John Walker, or the many murderers...."
Steve, we have no proof that John Walker is a murderer. I think you're being far too judgmental. For all we know, he went to study he chosen religion and decided to check out Afghanistan. Is it possible that he was just 'conscripted'. The Taliban were notorious for carry out 'Shang Hai' recruitment.
Why isn't this guy given the benefit of the doubt? My first impressions are that the media is feeding off public anger.

At the very least, John Walker is a common foot soldier who has found himself in a situation. He was in the region well before September 11th and his parents said that they haven't heard from him in six months. Unless he carried out some atrocity against civilians or passed on 'sensitive information', he is not answerable to anybody.

"I don't think we should be surprised at American reaction to finding one of their own taking up arms against their country. I think he will be tried for treason, but not executed"

Innocent until proven guilty is an American term too, right?

 
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423
there was a clip of an Afghani man on the news a few weeks ago, in fact it was the day the Taliban lost power of the Afghan people. This man his beard shaven and his hair trimmed. The look on this man's facepretty much captured the essence of that day......... It meant a lot to me.
 

Willow

Assistant Moderator
Messages
109,631
I know what you're talking about F2K. The images of liberation.
Similar stories and pictures were coming out of East Timor.

It never ceases to amaze me how people can still look optimistic despite their hardships. I can but imagine what goes on in Afghanistan.

Amazingly, these ordinary people are often portrayed as being 'uncivilised' by others who have their own selfish agendas.

 

imported_T.B

Juniors
Messages
25
Slight clarification "Does it basically suggest that you are legally (and mortally?) bound to the majority opinion of the land you were born in" Well that is essentially what laws are I guess – so a bit of a moot point, but I think the question of the momentis whether you have the right to differ in opinion, and then finally remove yourself from those ‘national’ bounds when/if able. Unless he has committed some sort of international/war crime, I don’t see how he can be charged with anything by America but, if he has broken any Afghan laws then I suppose he could be charged by them. Then again the laws of our land (I’m pretty sure) extend overseas in at least one situation that comes to mind – i.e. child prostitution – so perhaps treason can as well. Figure we’ll be learning a lot more about treason laws in the next few weeks via the media but I think that to seek the death penalty in either case would be a severley f*cked up idea TB
 
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TB, ill try and help u out there with my limited legal education....lol

Basically, this man cannot be tried under Afghani law because quite simply, there is no system in place! The taliban is all but toppled, there is no one in existence that at the moment that could actually enforce the law, so i dunno how he could be tried under it. You cannot be tried under laws that don't exist. The Taliban legal set-up will surely not be enforced, so how can he be convicted?

I don't THINK that treason falls under international law/treaties. He could be tried for it in America though. I have my doubts over this whole thing TB. I know that yesterday America began preceedings against the first person who conspired to commit the 9/11 attacks. The trial was DELIBERATELY moved to Virginia, which has a conservative system, the fastest moving process in the States and a much higher percentage likelihood of the death penalty being given out. If they can do that with this conspirer guy, i definitely think they could do the same with Mr Walker. The death penalty is not out of the question..It will be a trial by media which is fundamentally wrong, as it goes against the basic ideas of how justice work.

As for your first point, if this guy was not a citizen of America when he commited these 'alleged' crimes, then i fail to see how he could be charged with treason. If he doesn't belong to the country, how could he be foung guilty of betraying it? You are not legally bound by their legal setup, i don't know they could possibly get him. (All that of course is assuming that he wasn't an American citizen at the time

Moff.


 
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