Plane Crashes Into World Trade Centre

[ex-manager]

The land of the free and the home of the brave?

US Law, what law?

 

[CanadianSteve]

Willow: John Walker will probably have a trial, and if found not guilty, so be it. You and TB have raised some interesting possible explanations of what happened to him. I think the US government would rather find some way of excusing him, rather than convicting an American citizen. I heard today on CNN that Walker is talking to CIA agents and giving information on possible Al Quaida (sp) attacks.
Maybe I went too far in lumping him with McVeigh and murderers. I just meant that some people end up on the wrong path, and I think becoming a Taliban soldier is the wrong path for an American to end up on.
It is great to see Afghanis enjoying their new freedom, as Footy2k and Willow said. I think it shows the Americans are doing a good thing there

 

This message has been deleted by the manager or assistant manager.

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

Sorry Steve, i missed another question you rose earlier. Yes, this generation around John Walkers age does include me. Im not sure how the situation is up there, but the suicide rate for teenagers aged 15-24 is horrendous. Just last nite i was watching the news where a country town of 1000 people or so had 6 young people kill themselves last year...tragic

I think there is no clear answer. I can also say that current methods are not working. There needs to be an overall change in the mindset that currently exists when people, and society as a whole, look at teenagers. The common perception is, yep, they are kids, they are troublemakers, leave them alone and they will grow out of it. Well that is crap, some people go on to be successful, some people live ho hum every day lives, some people go out to commit horrendous crimesand some people end up dead. Its a sad reality. Are teenagers afforded the same rights/respect as everyone else in society?? I think not. Kids are not dumb. They do see through thinly vailed attempts to show concern for them.

I dunno, its a tough situation. I think that kids need to be better understood. Thats the thing, people do not understand, so they are scared. Education, education and understanding is the key if you ask me...

Moff.

 

[Willow]

No worries Steve.

I have to say that Australia has gone up one better thanthe John Walker story. In true tradition of 'Where's Wally', we've found our very own traitor to love an cherish...

His name is David Hicks, born in Adelaide. But he ain't some disillusioned young bloke fighting with the Taliban, we're talking about a dead set mercenary fighting for al-Qaeda.... never let it be said that the USA has a monopoly on good news stories.

The story broke two days back on the Australian national broadcaster, the ABC and it has taken a little while for the tabloids to get hold of it.
Here is today's front page of that gutter rag, The Daily Telegraph (Sydney):

Its says, 'Meet David Hicks. An ordinary Australian boy who became a TRAITOR.'
Its goes to report: 'Now a prisoner in Afgahanistan, the 26 year old turned on his country to fight with Osama bin Laden's al-Qaeda terrorists. His story of betrayal starts page 2...'

The paper tries hard to make out he is a traitor but its not until well into the story that we discover that David Hicks is a mercenary and cannot be charged with treason.... but by then ofcourse, they've sold the paper, right?

He can, however, be charged under Australia's anti-incursion laws which forbid any Australian citizen from engaging independantly in armed conflict overseas.... aka 'soldeirs of fortune'.

Apparently, David Hicks was earlier fighting in Kosovo with the Kosovo Liberation Army. He ended up in Afghanstan well before September 11th.

The paper is obviously feeding off the WTC disaster and trying to link it on...thereby making a few more quid for the advertisers.

 

[ex-manager]

Merceneries. I remember a big ginger haired Geordie (I think he was an ex British Para)who fought for the PLO back in the 80's. I often wonder if they ever caught him.

I don't think they'd use treason in the UK. The consensus of opinion seems to be that it's an outdated crime, something from the middle ages.

 

[TheSaint]

Isn't Treason defined in great Britain as an attempt to harm or kill the King or Queen?

One question I'd like answered. How many innocent Afgani's have died as a result of America's actions in this war against Terrorism?

Is it just me or is anyone else worried about having a war monger as the unelected leader of the so called free (to do what America want's us to do) world.

 

[ex-manager]

Treason has been downgraded as a crime in the UK. Up until a few years ago, it was still possible to recieve the death penalty for this supposed crime long after the death penalty had been abolished for murder.

On a radio program a few weeks back, they were discussing what to do with the British Asians who had gone to fight with the Taliban, everyone on the panel - including lawyers - agreed that treason was an outdated crime, that a new definition for such acts was needed in this new millenium.

 

[imported_footy2k]

Today The Pentagon released the video of Bin Laden raving about his plans of the attack on the Twin Towers..It was of poor audio quality but it had an english interpretation(in words). He was pointing out how the iron bars holding up the towers can be melted with an explosion from an aircraft. He also pointed out the other weaknesses he thought it might have. The video tape was found in an abandoned house in Jalalebad (sp?), which was an easy find for the FBI. If only Bin Laden was that easy to find....

 

[imported_footy2k]

Steve,
It was great to see these people finally have their freedom. The look on this man's face was priceless. He had a nervous smile, but you could tell he knew something big and something very important had just happened. I hope he likes his new clean-cut face!.

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

Just a bit of a question, isn't treason defined as committing criminal acts against a country that you have an alligence to?? In my book at least, i don't see how the American guy (Mr Walker) or even the Australian guy had any alligences to their countries. How would you prove such an alligence? Is being a citizen of a country enough to prove alligence? Im not sure, although i doubt that either guy would've been a citizen of their respective countries whilst they were off fighting in Afghanistan....

Its a weird crime and needs re-defining. If you are going by the strict definition of treason, alot of small and very inconspicous acts would technically classify as treason.

Moff.

 

[ex-manager]

Moff, I don't think anyone will be tried in the UK for treason. As I pointed out, I think they are looking at alternatives to this outdated law.

 

[CanadianSteve]

I only caught part of the Bin Laden tape report on CNN, but it seems there is little question it is authentic, unless you are a real conspiracy theorist. One part I saw showed him smiling and laughing as he discussed the detruction of the towers, and he even seemed to be amused at the idea that some of his hi-jackers didn't know they were on a suicide mission.
MFC: I don't know what the answer is for troubled youths either. I don't think our suicide rate is that high, but I could be wrong. I have heard of cases like the small town you mention, where 1 young person committs suicide, then a bunch of his peers seem to follow along. There was also a well-known incident in northern Canada recently where a group of young native Canadians in a remote town were filmed on CBC getting high sniffing gasoline in plastic bags. The suicide rate among these kids IS high. What causes these things - poverty, loneliness, a feeling of hopelessness, family problems, abuse? It's harder to understand when you see it in kids from more well-off families.
I'm a high school teacher, and I must say I can relate to kids who are driven to get good marks and succeed. I can relate to kids who like sports but don't try as hard as they might in school. I can relate to kids who are average students and just go along and don't make waves. But I admit I have trouble understanding what I see as a growing number of kids who are apathetic about everything except maybe drugs and punk music. Are they really rebelling against their parents and a materialistic society? Or are they just following an easy, drop-out path because they don't want to try to succeed?

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

Its a tough question Steve. I know if i categorise myself as one of those people, i was a person who went along not making many waves....But I also saw a lot of people who have gone off the tracks. From what i have seen and actually knowing some people who aren't exactly going along well, i genuinely think that they become dis-associated with society. There needs to be a system in place which prevents kids from developing these symptoms. Once people go off track, its very hard to reverse the situation. There is always an alternative lifestyle. unfortunately, it involves drugs, underage drinking, crime and even suicide. It isn't a pleasant alternative, and i just think that more can be done to help these people and keep them a part of society before they are disassociated.

Or perhaps it is just rebelling. But i don't buy that, 70 or 80 years ago u would've only found a very small % of the youth that would even dare to rebel. Now, its the thing to do, the more crazier you are the more accepted you are. I think its more then rebelling, there are things that bring about rebelling, you can't just label every act of a teenager as 'rebelling'. That is part of the ignorance that has created the problem.

But hey, you are a teacher, you probably see this and even more. I guess its good to keep things in perspective, what is it like over there? I would guess that Canadian kids are pretty similar to American kids, i would also assume that they have similar problems to the US...would this be right?

Moff.

 

[Willow]

There is no doubt that the video has caused division in the muslim world.

While no one has actually said outright that this video is a fabrication, there are those who are suggesting that the video still doesn't prove that bin Laden is the 'mastermind' behind the attack on the World Trade Center. That is, they suggest that he just part of the plan.

If bin Laden is captured, the video should indicted as evidence in a trial so it can be properly scrutinised in an international court of law.

I say this as opposed to the view that he would better off dead and should be shot on sight ... on the strength of video evidence.

Currently, people (members of the general public and certain politicians) are making judgment based on these TV broadcasts.
IMO, this is not the correct path of justice.

 

[TheSaint]

From whatPresident Doubleua, has had to say, you are either fighting with America or fighting against them.

The video does show Bin Laden is part of the terrorist organisation and as the leader of that organisation, allowed for the go ahead of the assult. He's undoubtably guilty.

What I do find suss is that this footage was released about the same time as America ripped up their 1970's missile treaty. A nice little diversion for another move towards reviving the cold war. Well, Howard is still Bush's dog, and fully supporting America with out really thinking. Not that I agree with the policy, but america didn't support Australia on theAssylmn seekers issue at the UN. Nice to know who your friends are. Not to mention the lack of support from our Great Allie in Timor. it's time Australia found new allies. I suggest the less Right wing EU.

 

[Cronulla_Mania]

Saint, i was thinnking the same thing. Its a brillant diversion. I cant be 100% convinced that it is NOT a tampered with video. I mean, we can never see the lips move and it wouldve been bloody easy to just tape someone talking over that video footage.....

I dunno, its a bit suss, why would you leave something as potentially damaging as that just lying around......sounds a bit weird to me

Moff.

 

[CanadianSteve]

Right now the news is reporting that some Afghan fighters think they have bin Laden cornered, while some American authorities say they aren't sure where he is. If he is caught soon, I don't think there'll be any trial, Willow, I think he will fight to the death.
I don't think the bin Laden tape could be fake. They brought in independent translators to translate and verify the transcript. It would be too embarassing for the US if they faked the tape and then it was discovered to be fake. They wouldn't risk that

 

[CanadianSteve]

Now another US reporter is on CNBC saying a source has told him that bin Laden has escaped the country.

 

[CanadianSteve]

700!