Player welfare and Kalyn Ponga

[stryker]

I’d have to see footage of Mario at a lunch in the 80s to compare.

somehow I don’t think the conversation would be that different

Whatever makes you feel better.

 

[Chimp]

It's not like every single tackle was a shoulder charge, and guys like Luke Keary and Ponga would have rarely used that technique.

See this is the thing, it’s not the typical ‘steaming out of the line to smash someone’ shoulder charge I’m talking about. It’s where you’ve the arm tucked into side, turning side on and taking the impact with the point of your shoulder - not necessarily whilst advancing forward even, just bracing for the impact of a forward taking a drive. Back when the shoulder charge was allowed, the person taking the first impact would essentially stop the driver’s momentum with a cocked shoulder, whilst a defender either side would come in and wrap up.
Someone like big NAS taking a drive from a kick off or drop out, straight at say someone like Ponga, Ponga’s only legal option at the moment is to open his arms and take the impact either with his chest or head, depending how low he bends. The safest way for Ponga to defend that is to meet force with force, tuck his arm in tight, turn side on to make is body as small and tight as possible behind his cocked shoulder, and hit as hard as he can. Under current rules, trying a low tackle is a suicide mission as he’ll cop a knee or worse still a hip, or have his head in wrong place if there’s any late footwork, or he tries and meets NAS on his chest, but opens likelihood of head clash, or just getting steam rolled.
The outright ban of the shoulder charge was a reckless and ill thought out knee jerk reaction, and it’s having dire consequences.

 

[Danish]

And? If the likelyhood is increased it's good to be educated about it. Steve Mortimer can also attend, so he understands that it happens to half's as well.

It's not like brain injury only causes this sort of problem either. Black dog is way more likely, risk taking increases and then you also get things like these events...

Junior Seau - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Chris Benoit double-murder and suicide - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

From wiki

"In September 2015, researchers with the United States Department of Veterans Affairs and Boston University announced that they had identified CTE in 96 percent of National Football League players that they had examined and in 79 percent of all football players.[18] By November 2016, 90 of 94 former NFL players had been posthumously diagnosed with CTE by McKee.[19] Professional players diagnosed included eight-time Pro Bowler Lou Creekmur,[20] Cookie Gilchrist[21] and Wally Hilgenberg.[22]"

Chronic traumatic encephalopathy in sports - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Not sure why you would feel NRL players would be represented really any different in those sorts of stats.

96% of players who showed symptoms of CTE during their life to the point they specifically donated their brains were posthumously diagnosed.

15% of a random sample of athletes were posthumously diagnosed with CTE.

do you understand the difference in how those data sets were created and why the 15% number is a more accurate indicator of the risk?

 

[Danish]

Is one study enough to sway the whole argument for you though?

I think you're fighting a losing battle claiming "it's not that bad" to get repeated concussion.

there are tonnes of randomised studies that show the same result. CTE in randomised samples of athletes sit in the 10-20%, and in the general population around the 5-10% mark.

if the rates of CTE were as high as the idiotic 90+% claims we’d have thousands of examples of ex-league players to point to today. Instead we see that going through the great rosters of the 80s there are 1-2 players in each team that are in a bad way, and the rest are ok.

as an example, Mario gets mentioned a tonne when these things come up. How many of his Souths team mates are also suffering from CTE?

 

[Canard]

See this is the thing, it’s not the typical ‘steaming out of the line to smash someone’ shoulder charge I’m talking about. It’s where you’ve the arm tucked into side, turning side on and taking the impact with the point of your shoulder - not necessarily whilst advancing forward even, just bracing for the impact of a forward taking a drive. Back when the shoulder charge was allowed, the person taking the first impact would essentially stop the driver’s momentum with a cocked shoulder, whilst a defender either side would come in and wrap up.
Someone like big NAS taking a drive from a kick off or drop out, straight at say someone like Ponga, Ponga’s only legal option at the moment is to open his arms and take the impact either with his chest or head, depending how low he bends. The safest way for Ponga to defend that is to meet force with force, tuck his arm in tight, turn side on to make is body as small and tight as possible behind his cocked shoulder, and hit as hard as he can. Under current rules, trying a low tackle is a suicide mission as he’ll cop a knee or worse still a hip, or have his head in wrong place if there’s any late footwork, or he tries and meets NAS on his chest, but opens likelihood of head clash, or just getting steam rolled.
The outright ban of the shoulder charge was a reckless and ill thought out knee jerk reaction, and it’s having dire consequences.

I like your hypothesis.

But is there any real evidence to support this though?

 

[macavity]

Bloke who hates the Knights wants the Knights best player forced out of game.

 

[Exsilium]

While its a nice idea to want Kayln and the medical professionals to determine his fate, there is a responsibility to the game, which includes the idea that fans, especially young kids and parents, shouldn't keep seeing the same player(s) knocked out and returning to the field to repeat the same.

It is a bad look on the game and you can throw it back on policy to say it was all cleared by the right people but the liabilities still exist.

Imagine if one day its just a concussion for KP then the next hit causes a brain haemorrhage and possibly death? CTE is one of the risks but there are many, many more.

If you have a history of bad knocks, there has to be a very clear line in the sand.

My personal experience is that as a player of collision sports all my life, I was prone to concussions in the later years. After a series of concussions, the Neuro pulled rank and laid it out on me. One more hit and you'll be a vegetable or dead. Now, in my mid thirties, I have memory loss, suffer bouts of confusion and other head injury symptoms and I am not even a 1/10 on the scale of severity. Imagine what these blokes look forward to.

 

[Canard]

there are tonnes of randomised studies that show the same result. CTE in randomised samples of athletes sit in the 10-20%, and in the general population around the 5-10% mark.

if the rates of CTE were as high as the idiotic 90+% claims we’d have thousands of examples of ex-league players to point to today. Instead we see that going through the great rosters of the 80s there are 1-2 players in each team that are in a bad way, and the rest are ok.

as an example, Mario gets mentioned a tonne when these things come up. How many of his Souths team mates are also suffering from CTE?

Are you suggesting that precautions shouldn't be taken with concussion? Or that the current precautions are to conservative? Not a gotcha, a genuine question.

The issue that seems to be lost is employers safety responsibilities. This isn't just a "players can decide to take a risk" discussion

 

[Canard]

While its a nice idea to want Kayln and the medical professionals to determine his fate, there is a responsibility to the game, which includes the idea that fans, especially young kids and parents, shouldn't keep seeing the same player(s) knocked out and returning to the field to repeat the same.

It is a bad look on the game and you can throw it back on policy to say it was all cleared by the right people but the liabilities still exist.

Imagine if one day its just a concussion for KP then the next hit causes a brain haemorrhage and possibly death? CTE is one of the risks but there are many, many more.

If you have a history of bad knocks, there has to be a very clear line in the sand.

My personal experience is that as a player of collision sports all my life, I was prone to concussions in the later years. After a series of concussions, the Neuro pulled rank and laid it out on me. One more hit and you'll be a vegetable or dead. Now, in my mid thirties, I have memory loss, suffer bouts of confusion and other head injury symptoms and I am not even a 1/10 on the scale of severity. Imagine what these blokes look forward to.

Very well made point.

I would assume though, that any player stood down on concussion protocol would be assessed for this sort of thing by suitability qualified individuals

 

[Scott]

Watching it happen live, my immediate thought was 'That could be the end'.

Obviously a tough conversation will be required between Newcastle, the appropriate health professionals and the Ponga family.

Very sad & tough situation. There is more to life though.

 

[Exsilium]

Very well made point.

I would assume though, that any player stood down on concussion protocol would be assessed for this sort of thing by suitability qualified individuals

And therein lies another issue. A player can be assessed, everything checks out medically, they go out again and suffer another one. The process of assessment restarts and we know that many players have been assessed multiple times and returned to the field, only to be knocked out again in a shorter time frame and with collisions that are often appear with less force.

Look how long it took Cordner to hang up the boots. Anyone watching the game knew he was a risk and yet he still played on after being cleared. His last few hits were pretty normal collisions but it sent him skyward.

KP is on the same trajectory but how many times should he be able to return to the field before a forced (Regulated) decision is made by club and/or governing bodies.

 

[AlwaysGreen]

Hopefully he'll do the right recovery like last time and has already hit the alcohomol hard.

 

[Danish]

Are you suggesting that precautions shouldn't be taken with concussion? Or that the current precautions are to conservative? Not a gotcha, a genuine question.

The issue that seems to be lost is employers safety responsibilities. This isn't just a "players can decide to take a risk" discussion

I’m saying the current precautions are enough. Players who potentially have a concussion are pulled from the field and tested, then ruled out if the doctor has concerns. They then go through a protocol of testing to be cleared to play.

many additional precautions based on a player’s hypothetical future - especially ones that try to deliberately play with statistics rely on anecdotal stories - are not needed.

give players the straight facts and they can decide if they want to play or not. Just as people can voluntarily enter any other dangerous profession.

as to worker safety, there are far more dangerous jobs for one’s long term health than playing footy. Hell even without going into actual dangerous jobs and just sticking to sport we have combat sports that no one is talking about banning.

 

[Mr Angry]

Quite simply if I am his dad I begging for him to stop. Keary the same.

 

[Fangs]

The move to 6 was only going it make it worse. Maybe he will fair better in Rugby?

Is the James McManus case a relevant precedent for any future lawsuits?

Significant ruling for NRL as ex-Knights James McManus’ $1m concussion lawsuit dismissed

Significant ruling for NRL as ex-Knights star’s $1m concussion lawsuit dismissed

www.foxsports.com.au

 

[Dogs Of War]

The move to 6 was only going it make it worse. Maybe he will fair better in Rugby?

Is the James McManus case a relevant precedent for any future lawsuits?

Significant ruling for NRL as ex-Knights James McManus’ $1m concussion lawsuit dismissed

Significant ruling for NRL as ex-Knights star’s $1m concussion lawsuit dismissed

www.foxsports.com.au

That's a funny one. The case was due to be heard, but days before the court date it was dismissed. Suggests a payout was done so they didn't air the dirty laundry. All confidential mind you.

 

[Slackboy72]

96% of players who showed symptoms of CTE during their life to the point they specifically donated their brains were posthumously diagnosed.

15% of a random sample of athletes were posthumously diagnosed with CTE.

do you understand the difference in how those data sets were created and why the 15% number is a more accurate indicator of the risk?

Do you understand that that's a 250% increase in the occurrence of CTE over a population where they say they didn't know if they were athletes? That is a massive difference.

 

[Floodwaters]

Its personal choice imo, it appears now that he may have a weak chin going forward, therefore he should go back to fullback to avoid being in the front line but this one yesterday was just poor tackling, put himself in a horrible position.

Lets not forgot Ponga just bought a $2.4million house so he pretty much needs to stay in the sport so he isn't just going to walk away from it and if forced? probably do him more harm then good.

 

[Canard]

Its personal choice imo, it appears now that he may have a weak chin going forward, therefore he should go back to fullback to avoid being in the front line but this one yesterday was just poor tackling, put himself in a horrible position.

Lets not forgot Ponga just bought a $2.4million house so he pretty much needs to stay in the sport so he isn't just going to walk away from it and if forced? probably do him more harm then good.

Surely a proper medical retirement covers income protection and adequate compensation for players?

This situation reinforces the RLPA position on retirement funding, for mine.

 

[skeepe]

I think his career is over. For his own sake, he shouldn’t set foot on a football field again.