Promotion and Relegation!

[flippikat]

NZ Cup setup based around Auckland and regional clubs

The money just ain't there for a NZ wide competition of a decent scale. It'd have to be heavily subsidized by the NRL, and even then, the best players would choose to go to Australia.

 

[T-Boon]

NRL clubs need to run reserve grade to remove the need for feeder clubs

NSW Cup to be restructured and RM Cup clubs promoted and NSW regional divisions added

NZ Cup setup based around Auckland and regional clubs

Then promotion would be a series where wooden spooned / QLD Cup winner / NSW Cup winner / NZ Cup winner playoff in a 3 week round robin series

Then all expansion locations can join these 3 comps and earn their right to participate

As TV and fan interest increases then grants will increase for second tier

Not bad.

 

[DC_fan]

On a list of top 10 dumb things to introduce into Australian sport, this would be numbers 1,3,5 and 7.

Actually I would say 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10

 

[siv]

The money just ain't there for a NZ wide competition of a decent scale. It'd have to be heavily subsidized by the NRL, and even then, the best players would choose to go to Australia.

Agree but if a NZ Cup got similar grants to the NSW and QLD Cup things would change e.g. start at $500k per year and grow to 25% of NRL grants

Plus any club that is classified as country gets $125k extra to cover travel ie more than 5hr drive out of Sydney/Brisbane/Auckland

Or remote clubs $250k extra e.g. Canterbury NZ

 

[Perth Red]

Promotion always works

It brings hope, interest and sponsors and increases the footprint of the game

r

It really doesn't, most clubs in the second division in England are living hand to mouth and go from day to day on the brink of insolvency. Every now and again you'll get a rich money man throw some money at a club to help them get promoted but its unsustainable and as soon as the club inevitably drops down the owner drops them. The second division is littered with the carcasses of ex SL clubs who are on the brink, the fans and sponsors seem to give up hope pretty quick.

 

[siv]

It really doesn't, most clubs in the second division in England are living hand to mouth and go from day to day on the brink of insolvency. Every now and again you'll get a rich money man throw some money at a club to help them get promoted but its unsustainable and as soon as the club inevitably drops down the owner drops them. The second division is littered with the carcasses of ex SL clubs who are on the brink, the fans and sponsors seem to give up hope pretty quick.

A lot of this stems from it being too easy to go up and down

I don't beleive they have the same national U16 U18 U20 spread of development pathways based around club districts as we do

 

[flippikat]

The only way promotion/relegation could work is a "soft" promotion/relegation like the New Zealand Mitre 10 Cup (rugby union), and that's a stretch.

Basically two divisions of (for example) 10 teams, a "championship" (top tier) and a "premiership" (2nd tier) with their own playoff series (perhaps a top 4 or 5), and some "crossover" games every year where the divisions play each other.. grand final winner of the championship swaps places with the wooden spooner in the premiership.

In the NRLs case, both championship and premiership would probably have the same club budgets, grants, salary caps etc.. the only separator being on-field form. THAT may cushion the blow of any relegation, and make promoted teams better equipped to cope in the top tier. (Stopping the perennial yo-yo that happens to some teams in promotion-relegation)

It'd still be a closed shop - no team from a state league could join the premiership or championship through *automatic* promotion.. but it provides a structure to expand the NRL if need be.. and parameters can be changed if the number of teams grow.

It's a left-field idea, but the only model of promotion/relegation that could limit damage to relegated teams.

 

[greenBV4]

In the NRLs case, both championship and premiership would probably have the same club budgets, grants, salary caps etc.. the only separator being on-field form.

This part defeats the whole purpose though doesnt it?

If they can afford to do that they may aswell just add the extra teams and leave the firmat how it is

 

[tri_colours]

According to the ratings , the NRL is the most watched sport in Australia. So the interest level is there.
Clubs such as Newcastle , Easts, Nth Qld etc. all want teams. As do Perth, PNG ,C Coast etc. And they all want to play in the number 1 game but not all can fit. So If the lower tier is attracting a grant from from appearances on tv/streaming . And assuming the networks pay as much or similar for 6 top quality matches in the top tier each week there would also be a little extra there. P/R play offs could attract almost as much interest as the Grand Final.

There would be a lot of people like myself who would gladly pay to watch my team , particularly if they were a chance of being promoted . If teams were close to being promoted , sponsors, benefactors even governments would come out of the woodwork to back there team .

And as has already been stated, if your playing badly you don't deserve to be in the top tier. And if someone with strategic importance like Brisbane were relegated , there backers and supporters would soon have them back in the top tier once they started playing well.

It would be sink or swim, and if you sunk it would be nobody but you and your clubs fault.

Remember there supporters are dormant not dead!

 

[Bojackhorseman]

According to the ratings , the NRL is the most watched sport in Australia. So the interest level is there.
Clubs such as Newcastle , Easts, Nth Qld etc. all want teams. As do Perth, PNG ,C Coast etc. And they all want to play in the number 1 game but not all can fit. So If the lower tier is attracting a grant from from appearances on tv/streaming . And assuming the networks pay as much or similar for 6 top quality matches each week there would also be a little extra there. P/R play offs could attract almost as much interest as the Grand Final.

There would be a lot of people like myself who would gladly pay to watch my team , particularly if they were a chance of being promoted . If teams were close to being promoted , sponsors, benefactors even governments would come out of the woodwork to back there team .

And as has already been stated, if your playing badly you don't deserve to be in the top tier. And if someone with strategic importance like Brisbane were relegated , there backers and supporters would soon have them back in the top tier once they started playing well.

Remember the supporters are dormant not dead!

To sum it up. You have a really silly idea. It’s never going to happen. Blah blah blah

 

[flippikat]

This part defeats the whole purpose though doesnt it?

If they can afford to do that they may aswell just add the extra teams and leave the firmat how it is

Fair point, and well made.

Honestly I think promotion/relegation - even under a soft-model, as I outlined- is folly, and any form of P&R throws up more problems than solutions.

The NRL would be best to create a roadmap that gets us a 2nd Brisbane team, Perth, 2nd NZ team & Adelaide (at a bare minimum for expansion, and not necessarily in that order) ASAP, and a decent 2nd tier under that.

 

[tri_colours]

To sum it up. You have a really silly idea. It’s never going to happen. Blah blah blah

A silly idea that's gone 4 pages. more than 70 replies You do realise you don't have to keep replying. There are plenty of other threads that you can arse lick on.

Maybe this silly idea wont get up, but it's got a lot more going for it then anything you've suggested.

 

[Bojackhorseman]

A silly idea that's gone 4 pages. more than 70 replies You do realise you don't have to keep replying.

Maybe this silly idea wont get up, but it's got a lot more going for it then anything you've suggested.

A silly idea that has seen nearly everybody but you say it’s a stupid idea. I’m quite happy to tell you for another 4 pages how stupid it is. If that feeds your ego that’s your problem.

 

[Wily Ole Dog]

I’ll add my 2 bobs worth. Promotion and relegation is not needed and won’t work

 

[tri_colours]

I’ll add my 2 bobs worth. Promotion and relegation is not needed and won’t work

Then I'm not sure what path the game will head in. I seriously doubt we will ever get past a 18 team comp. As I said previously , there are a lot of teams wanting in and not any wanting out.

A permanent top quality competition, one where any out of form teams are replaced with inform teams from the lower tier. Not to mention the additional money and interest that would come from the promotion/ relegation side of things.

 

[siv]

Let's take expansion discussion with this year's results

Newtown would have won the rights to be promoted or the right to challenge for promotion.

But if promoted or playoff in a challenge series they will not be able to field the Cronulla Top 30+6 players contracted in 2020

The Top 30+6 is very important for a NRL team to function during a heavy injury & rep period. Although it has issues for in form juniors or out of form players which cannot be predicted 2 years in advance.

So you need to establish a second tier squad structure and have a separate comp for them to play in

 

[tri_colours]

Let's take expansion discussion with this year's results

Newtown would have won the rights to be promoted or the right to challenge for promotion.

But if promoted or playoff in a challenge series they will not be able to field the Cronulla Top 30+6 players contracted in 2020

The Top 30+6 is very important for a NRL team to function during a heavy injury & rep period. Although it has issues for in form juniors or out of form players which cannot be predicted 2 years in advance.

So you need to establish a second tier squad structure and have a separate comp for them to play in

The game is going ahead though, not backwards. Newtown is not a side trying to gain admittance, unlike a Perth or a PNG. A 2nd tier NRL competition should be treated separate to a NSW cup team.

 

[Captain Apollo]

I've read this all the way through. The main reason promotion and relegation won't work in the NRL is the big one - money, or lack thereof. Currently most NRL revenue is spent on player salaries. To have a viable second tier comp, it would need to be subsidised by the NRL, and I very much doubt the NRL Players Association would stand for a lowering of the salary cap for tha6t to occur. Further it would mean a reduction in the current NRL grants to clubs, remind me which clubs would support losing funding to help teams which may ultimately replace them?

The NRL clubs and players are ok with money being spent on development and juniors. Tell them though they have to accept less and it may mean their current contract now has options in it rendering it void if the team is relegated (in case of players) or their multi-million dollar sponsorship has a termination agreement in it in case of relegation (for clubs) and you watch them join in lock step to oppose it.

Further if you think teams like Wentworthville, Redcliffe or Newtown have the financial firepower currently to be able to put together an NRL caliber playing roster you are not facing reality.

 

[tri_colours]

I've read this all the way through. The main reason promotion and relegation won't work in the NRL is the big one - money, or lack thereof. Currently most NRL revenue is spent on player salaries. To have a viable second tier comp, it would need to be subsidised by the NRL, and I very much doubt the NRL Players Association would stand for a lowering of the salary cap for tha6t to occur. Further it would mean a reduction in the current NRL grants to clubs, remind me which clubs would support losing funding to help teams which may ultimately replace them?


The NRL clubs and players are ok with money being spent on development and juniors. Tell them though they have to accept less and it may mean their current contract now has options in it rendering it void if the team is relegated (in case of players) or their multi-million dollar sponsorship has a termination agreement in it in case of relegation (for clubs) and you watch them join in lock step to oppose it.

Further if you think teams like Wentworthville, Redcliffe or Newtown have the financial firepower currently to be able to put together an NRL caliber playing roster you are not facing reality.

As I said in the previous post, Wentworth , Newtown are the past not the future. Were talking about the teams trying to gain admittance

A second tier competition could also add money . I recall watching those midweek competitions when I was younger and the sponsorship and prize money was significant even for that time . If the networks weren't Interested then the NRL could always sell of games themselves. If my team was involved I know I would be interested in buying a subscription, I'm sure others would feel the same. So there would be no reason for grants to the top tier clubs to be affected.

I think any club would be more agreeable to something similar to this, rather than being relocated to to the other side of the country or being a reduced to a feeder club.

Everybody wants the game to go ahead but changes do need to be made.

 

[Captain Apollo]

As I said in the previous post, Wentworth , Newtown are the past not the future. Were talking about the teams trying to gain admittance

A second tier competition could also add money . I recall watching those midweek competitions when I was younger and the sponsorship and prize money was significant even for that time . If the networks weren't Interested then the NRL could always sell of games themselves. If my team was involved I know I would be interested in buying a subscription, I'm sure others would feel the same. So there would be no reason for grants to the top tier clubs to be affected.

I think any club would be more agreeable to something similar to this, rather than being relocated to to the other side of the country or being a reduced to a feeder club.

Everybody wants the game to go ahead but changes do need to be made.

You are being naive in my opinion. Wentworthville have never been in the top tier competition. Many people reckoned they should have been admitted in 1967 instead of Penrith as Wentworthville were financial stronger (at the time) than Penrith.

Further a true promotion/relegation system would not have limits on where teams come from. The fact you have even floated one where you "reserve" where certain teams must come from points at the problems others have already identified.

As to second tier, if you think there is great demand amongst the general populace for it to pay for subscriptions, then you are in the minority. If there were enough $ in it, don't you think the ARLC would already have done it? They are always willing to take the $ and run.

Further you might pay for it if your team was relegated, but many would not. I'm basing this on the poor figures they get from those second tier games currently shown on FTA. The evidence does not indicate the demand based on the low ratings.