QRL plan to replace U20 NYC with Qld/NSW Cup

[lturner]

Queensland clubs say Intrust Super Cup comp superior to National Youth Cup

• by Steve Ricketts
• From: The Courier-Mail
• July 15, 2010 12:01AM

WYNNUM-Manly's 1975 semi-final outfit will hold a reunion on July 25 and no doubt there will be plenty of discussion about the glory days of Brisbane club football.
Back then, the Seagulls provided two players, Lew Platz and John Rhodes, to the Australian side which contested the World Series against England, Wales, New Zealand and France.
Since the Broncos burst on the scene in 1988, the Brisbane clubs, and now their statewide counterparts, have taken a back seat to what has become a national competition.
But that does not mean they are willing to be relegated to the game's backwaters, which is what many club officials have feared since the introduction of the National Youth Cup, or Toyota Cup under-20 competition in 2008.
The NYC, which was opposed from the start by the Queensland clubs, has led to dissatisfaction with the administration of the code in this state.
Club officials believe QRL chairman John McDonald and managing director Ross Livermore did not fight hard enough against the establishment of the NYC, which effectively relegated what is now called the Intrust Super Cup to third-tier status.
The ISC is still of a high standard, as evidenced by the ABC's excellent live coverage. But officials are naturally concerned players who do not get NRL deals after graduating from the NYC will be lost to the code altogether instead of playing for their "local" clubs.
They also believe those youngsters would be better served doing their apprenticeships against men in the Queensland Cup, rather than playing week in, week out against other youngsters, and then not being able to make the step-up to NRL.
The NYC is locked in for another two years, but with television rights set to be renegotiated for 2013 and beyond, the Queensland clubs believe their product would be just as attractive.
In fact, it could be more appealing, given that teenagers come and go and the standard fluctuates accordingly. In the statewide competition, there is more certainty and there is the bonus of NRL players getting a run as they return from injury or suspension, or are dropped.
This year, the likes of Ashton Sims, Adam Mogg, Joe Galuveo, Steve Michaels, Clinton Toopi and Antonio Kaufusi have played ISC.
In an ideal world, the second-tier arrangement would see ISC and NSW Cup sides providing players for the NRL, with the under-20s aligned to state clubs instead of NRL clubs.
There also would be a national crossover at the end of the season with the champion ISC club playing the NSW premiers on NRL grand final day.
Bulldogs star Ben Barba played under-20s in 2008 and NSW Cup last year and said the NSW Cup was much better for his development.
Melbourne Storm stars Greg Inglis, Cameron Smith, Cooper Cronk and Billy Slater graduated from Brisbane Norths before NYC was even on the drawing boards.
The Queensland clubs rest their case.

It sounds like a good idea. Personally I have next to no interest in watching the U/20s matches, but have a lot of interest in seeing a national second division competition with traditional Brisbane and Sydney (non-NRL) clubs involved.

There should be more cross-over than just a premiers play-off though. I'd rather see a fully combined national competition, or at least seperate comps with a combined finals series.

 

[Titanic]

I would really like to see the Qld and NSW Cup competitions cross over for a collaborative finals series once their own premiers have been decided. The Yanks at least get that right with the NFL where the costs of a full nation-wide home & away series are prohibitive but regional conference winners play off for the national championship. Why not?

Sideline: when will the voting QRL board members wake up and get rid of Livermore, MacDonald and Ribot so that management in Qld can have an untarnished fairdinkum shot at re-shaping the future of our game?

 

[hellteam]

Qld Cup sh*ts all over NYC. I can't even watch a game of under 20's, the standard is WAY too poor, but I'll watch as many Qld Cup games as I can.

 

[TiggaPlease]

I wish they'd just dump the NYC now. I'd be open to QLD/NSW Cups being the 2nd tier comp. Something needs to be done and It's obvious that it's not NYC

 

[Lycon79]

Love the Idea of Souths Logan V newtown or something like that on GF day.

 

[typicalfan]

You can't get rid of our U20's competition. whether it is called Jersey Flegg or NYC doesn't make a difference. What should happen is bringing in a NATIONAL reserve comp to come over the top of the existing NYC and create a true 2nd tier league for all teams across the board, getting rid of junior infrastructure would do a lot of damage to the game. Would give us 3 games on match day again.

The QLD/NSW Cups simply do not have the marketability that the NYC does and what a National comp would. The state cups should be the next tier below that.

 

[Quidgybo]

Why dump one in favour of the other? Why not fund both as proper NRL support competitions? The national youth competition for preparing juniors to step up to the NRL and a national open-age second tier comp to provide a place for excess players - both NRL contracted and those who missed the cut for a contract. With a massive boost to the game's revenue expected with the new TV contract in 2013, it's not like we couldn't afford to do both if we want to.

Leigh

 

[adamkungl]

The NSW and QLD Cups should be the second tier comp.
They should be played before NRL matches, at NRL grounds.
NYC should be third tier.

The fans want to see three games of football on game day. It is ridiculous that a youth competition is seen as 'higher' than an open age reserve grade.

 

[typicalfan]

It should go

NRL
National Reserve Comp
National Youth Comp.
State Competitions

It is not as though all players coming through the NYC system aren't ready for first grade, but the ones that aren't should go into the reserve competition where the level is still higher than NYC and would be higher than either state cup to ply their trade.

We are missing a tier at the moment.

 

[hellteam]

If Qld/NSW cups are the second tier, what's the point of a national under 20's comp? All the half decent ones will be playing in the Qld/NSW Cups anyway. I can understand NSW having their Jersey Flegg etc, like they have for years, but I don't think it would be worth the cost to keep Qld teams in the national under 20's competition when they can play in the Colts competition here (how it used to happen before NYC).

 

[hellteam]

It should go

NRL
National Reserve Comp
National Youth Comp.
State Competitions

It is not as though all players coming through the NYC system aren't ready for first grade, but the ones that aren't should go into the reserve competition where the level is still higher than NYC and would be higher than either state cup to ply their trade.

We are missing a tier at the moment.

I also completely disagree with the notion of a national reserve competition. The Qld Cup is a great competition, and to weaken it further so there can be another game on NRL day just isn't worth it at all. By doing so it would also further marginalise supports from rural and country Qld who love going to watch teams like Central Comets (Rocky), Mackay Cutters, Sunny Coast Sea Eagles, not to mention all the supporters from the strong Brisbane and Gold Coast clubs.

If the NSWRL got there asses into gear and created a competition worth something there would be no argument here, Qld and NSW Cups are the way to go.

 

[typicalfan]

If Qld/NSW cups are the second tier, what's the point of a national under 20's comp? All the half decent ones will be playing in the Qld/NSW Cups anyway. I can understand NSW having their Jersey Flegg etc, like they have for years, but I don't think it would be worth the cost to keep Qld teams in the national under 20's competition when they can play in the Colts competition here (how it used to happen before NYC).

Exactly but I think we need a national reserves otherwise we are just a NSW/QLD competition never to go anywhere. We need a Melbourne reserve team playing out of Melbourne, and when the Reds come back the same with them, that gives them the best opportunity to develop home grown stars in the long term. The QLD Cup will always be popular in QLD regardless and will be a good representative to the health of Rugby League in QLD. I think the NYC has been a lot better than the Jersey Flegg was, some of the stars coming out of it have been great but we are still missing a tier for where the players aren't ready.

 

[typicalfan]

I also completely disagree with the notion of a national reserve competition. The Qld Cup is a great competition, and to weaken it further so there can be another game on NRL day just isn't worth it at all. By doing so it would also further marginalise supports from rural and country Qld who love going to watch teams like Central Comets (Rocky), Mackay Cutters, Sunny Coast Sea Eagles, not to mention all the supporters from the strong Brisbane and Gold Coast clubs.

If the NSWRL got there asses into gear and created a competition worth something there would be no argument here, Qld and NSW Cups are the way to go.

Please, you state earlier in the thread that QLD Cups ****s all over the NYC. You are comparing one of the oldest competitions in Australia which is currently is the second best open competition in Australia to a recently created kids comp. Of course the standard would be better you would EXPECT it to be. The problem is the QLD Cup isn't a true reserve competition there are plenty of players in each state competition without NRL contracts and would never get near an NRL contract and although the standard is high it wouldnt be as high as a reserve competition across the board that develops the players from the NYC that clubs still have faith in. Not every League player is ready for the jump at age 20.

The NYC as bad as its quality may be has a much larger profile than the state competitions because it is national.

 

[Quidgybo]

If Qld/NSW cups are the second tier, what's the point of a national under 20's comp?

They serve different purposes. The NYC takes talented kids and trains/educates them in preparation for a career as a professional Rugby League player. It's our equivalent of College Gridiron in the USA. The national reserve grade provides an alternative professional / semi professional competition for adult players who have graduated from the NYC but have failed to make the NRL cut or are still not yet ready for the NRL or are NRL contracted but currently surplus to requirements.

I also completely disagree with the notion of a national reserve competition. The Qld Cup is a great competition, and to weaken it further so there can be another game on NRL day just isn't worth it at all. By doing so it would also further marginalise supports from rural and country Qld who love going to watch teams like Central Comets (Rocky), Mackay Cutters, Sunny Coast Sea Eagles, not to mention all the supporters from the strong Brisbane and Gold Coast clubs.

I don't think a national second tier should just be a retread of the NRL with games played at the same ground on the same day. It should be based in markets that are either currently too small to host an NRL team (eg. Mackay), are aspiring for NRL entry in the short to medium term (eg. Wellington), or are former top tier teams who can no longer compete at the NRL level (eg. Brisbane Norths, Newtown). NRL clubs would form player loan relationships with these clubs but the clubs themselves would be independent entities receiving grants directly from the NRL.

If the NSWRL got there asses into gear and created a competition worth something there would be no argument here, Qld and NSW Cups are the way to go.

The problem is if both states run their own comp with 12 - 16 teams (24 to 32 second tier teams in total), you inevitably dilute the quality of the comps and thus their usefulness - especially when compared to a single 16-18 team NYC. The reason to go with a single national second tier is so that you can have a high quality professional or at least semi professional competition that is largely made up of NYC graduates who either didn't make the NRL cut or are NRL contracted but currently surplus to requirements. A smaller higher quality comp eliminates the fringe amateurs who would never get anywhere near an NRL contract. The comp should be no bigger than the NRL itself, preferably one to one (if 18 NRL teams then 18 second tier teams) so that each team aligns with a single NRL team (eg. Canberra with an Albury-Wodonga team etc).

Leigh.


Leigh.

 

[typicalfan]

They serve different purposes. The NYC takes talented kids and trains/educates them in preparation for a career as a professional Rugby League player. It's our equivalent of College Gridiron in the USA. The national reserve grade provides an alternative professional / semi professional competition for adult players who have graduated from the NYC but have failed to make the NRL cut or are still not yet ready for the NRL or are NRL contracted but currently surplus to requirements.

Leigh.

Agree 100% no surprise the talent on the ground gets reduced when a player gets squeezed out of a club only for them to move to a NSW/QLD cup team and fade into obscurity. Almost every teams roster is incredibly thin because of the lack of a proper 2nd tier. NYC is the ideal youth comp.

 

[nqcowboy87]

finally some sensible talk, although a national reserve grade comp wouldnt work as the qrl clubs would be up in arms at being pushed further down the rung. keep the nsw and q cup as is but get some more funding in it so it goes

hm/cyril connell
sg ball/ mal meninga (i think i got those around the wrong way)
nyc
qcup/nswcup
nrl

and if a superbowl like game between the nsw and qld cup sides where to be played when would it be played on gf day that would mean pusing the entire comps back and putting it further out of sync of the nrl comp

 

[lturner]

Why dump one in favour of the other? Why not fund both as proper NRL support competitions? The national youth competition for preparing juniors to step up to the NRL and a national open-age second tier comp to provide a place for excess players - both NRL contracted and those who missed the cut for a contract. With a massive boost to the game's revenue expected with the new TV contract in 2013, it's not like we couldn't afford to do both if we want to.

Leigh

You could certainly have both, but the general rationale (which I mostly agree with) is that there is only a certain amount of interest amongst the public for second-tier competitions.

Realistically, only one or the other will have a TV broadcast deal, probably not both. So if this plan comes about the u20s could still exist, but with a lower profile.

If this happens I think the second-tier clubs should strive to be as independent of the NRL clubs as possible, so they are not just seen to be reserve grade sides with different jersey's on. Obviously, there needs to be some way NRL-contracted fringe players to be involved, as these players need to play somewhere and they will raise the overall standard. But they should limit the number of dual-registered players allowed (who come and go each week), and maybe encourage player loans, like they have in soccer. So a young player could be contracted to an NRL club, but loaned out for the season to a second-tier club.

 

[tkr]

Myself and 2 mates have season tickets to Mt Smart and enjoy getting there early to watch the U20's comp. It is a good arena to catch up and coming talent and not those who made it to NRL 1st grade, fail, and then fall back into reserve grade.

 

[Quidgybo]

Realistically, only one or the other will have a TV broadcast deal, probably not both. So if this plan comes about the u20s could still exist, but with a lower profile.

Both the NYC and Qld Cup have television contracts now. In fact the Qld Cup has live FTA coverage every week on ABC in Queensland. The difference is that the Qld Cup, as a competition based strictly on a single state, can't really compete for coverage on a national or international level. A national second tier would allow a single high profile competition to leverage the potential of coverage across the entire country, and perhaps even NZ, to maximise its sponsorship opportunities. And it needn't be at the expense of the NYC any more than the Qld Cup eclipses the NYC in Queensland currently.

If this happens I think the second-tier clubs should strive to be as independent of the NRL clubs as possible, so they are not just seen to be reserve grade sides with different jersey's on.

Yes, yes, yes. Use the second tier comp to fill in all those gaps in smaller markets that can't yet support an NRL team (eg. Albury-Wodonga, Toowoomba, Mackay, Port Moresby) or frontier markets aspiring for NRL entry in the short to medium term (eg. Perth, Wellington). Use the national second tier to start building a base of support now so that when these cities are finally ready for the NRL (whether that be in 2013 or 2050), they're Rugby League friendly cities, not hostile AFL cities.

Obviously, there needs to be some way NRL-contracted fringe players to be involved, as these players need to play somewhere and they will raise the overall standard. But they should limit the number of dual-registered players allowed (who come and go each week), and maybe encourage player loans, like they have in soccer. So a young player could be contracted to an NRL club, but loaned out for the season to a second-tier club.

I think the key is to ban NRL contracted players from being dual registered with any comp other than the national second tier. Ensure the best of the rest all end up in one strong second tier comp instead of diluted across a myriad of competitions.

Leigh.

 

[XXXX Cap]

The NSW and QLD Cups should be the second tier comp.
They should be played before NRL matches, at NRL grounds.

The fans want to see three games of football on game day. It is ridiculous that a youth competition is seen as 'higher' than an open age reserve grade.

What a load of nonsense.

Since when has the Queensland Cup been "an open age reserve grade" ? It is a stand alone competition played between clubs with proud traditions, many far more than the majority of NRL clubs. This wonderful competion and its BRL and Brisbane predecessors date back to 1909 as do some of the clubs involved in it.

People go to Queensland Cup games to support their club - what the bloody hell has NRL got to do with it ? I've been going to Wynnum Manly games for 50 years and to suggest that their games should be played at NRL venues rather than the cauldron of Kougari Oval or at other wonderful Rugby League grounds like Langlands Park or Dolphin Oval is a total insult.