Question on Peter V'landys

[taipan]

nor do they play in an afl city with 9 clubs on their doorstep who all avg over 30k fans attendance! Surely tribalism can overcome the storm advantages, and if not what value does it really have, or does it really exist to the level where it attracts fans to follow a club actively? The better question is what happened to the fans who would have grown up bears fans, have they grown up supporting a different club? Who are the twenty year olds in NS region following? Do you really need a club in every suburb to engage fans? Lol if you turkey read I’ve Adi there is no need for mergers or relocations IF the nrl imposes strict financial controls on clubs. If they leave them to their own devices we will see clubs in continued financial stress, and Gould is possibly right as clubs will likely have les income in next few years.

One club 5 million people .2nd biggest city in Australia, famous for getting crowds at all sporting events ,growing faster than Sydney.A modern stadium ,that relies on Kiwis to get the crowds ,with many G/F appearances, no junior production line coming through the club, spending a lot of time going to NZ to buy players .
Melbourne has two all seater stadiums(for AFL) all centralised with excellent transport infrastructure to these places.The city is nowhere near as geographically spread as Sydney nor have a Harbour to further complicate transport.

Cost of living housing wise in Sydney is greater than Melbourne.
Sydney has two AFL clubs ,Melbourne has one NRL club.Thus Melbourne has no other NRL club chasing members or fans.

The question to be posed if all Sydney NRL clubs had all seater stadiums with decent cover (and they don't have to be the size of Bankwest), it's reasonable to suggest their crowds would increase .

Well I can cite the Sharks.In 2016 when the won their way to the G/F of the 80 plus thousand fans on deck, the overwhelming majority were in Shark's colours.And even the semi against teh Cows had a big crowd at the SFS.
When I travel around the Shire ,there are countless numbers of vehicles with Shark's number plates.I see oldies with Sharks beanies, kids with Sharks jumpers, or caps on.Now they may not attend games at present week on week, but they are supporters by buying merchandise, and if they know they can go to a game when it rains with cover via a stand the chances of them attending are far better.IOW there is an undercurrent of tribal support in addition to the fanatics.You aim to get them involved by offering better facilities.
That is what tribalism is all about fanatics, casuals and the sleepers. LIke any tribe under attack, they rise up together as one.It is built up over the generations.
If as the above example shows, you think relocating or wiping such a club will solve expansion and crowd problems in the NRL, then you are still living in Hull.And if you believe tribalism is not important have a chat with an Eels or Souths fan.

 

[Hello, I'm The Doctor]

Manly do not have 5 million people.Manly do not have a you beaut stadium.Roosters do not have 5 million people and exist in a union .latte sipping area.They have few juniors within their area.
Maybe you should ask yourself what's happened to the Bear's fans ,once their club was flicked.Which other clubs did they go to.You can count them on your hand.Tribalism is following a club and if that club goes they lose that fan base..
It's saturated because it's the base of the code here.It has already had 4 teams merge ,one get the flick, and you in your typical selfish whining ways want more to go, when there are also no guarantees of what a new club in Perth will get long term.We saw how fickle they were when the SL war started with their numbers.
On a secondary channel, and the numbers are SFA for the Storm in Melbourne. When you start getting a production line of juniors entering your first grade side, start bragging.
You see every Sydney NRL club will at least attract far more FTA viewers in Sydney, the major commercial heart of this country.

Your'e the one continually speculating on what the NRL should get, and if they do this it's rubbish.You';re the one bagging negotiations before they have actually been decided.If you look at ch10s programs ,it doesn't take a brain surgeon to know they are running on the smell of an oil rag.
I actually thought CBS (10 owners) would come into the equation.They haven't ,so their were it would appear ,if today's Herald new is anything to go on, they and 7 were never really in the picture.
And it also looks like 9 will not be extending ,their end 2022 deal, so open the champagne ,but you will still whine.

Your last line is rather ironic.I've been saying all along with your negativity ,you jump in before a deal is done, or decision is made with your usual negativity "it wont do this or that, we will get screwed etc etc"Your last line commentary just confirms what I stated.Smith certainly stuffed it up for us at the end, as did Gallop.
Scoop.We are living in times ,a lot of people are comparing with the great depression, if you think we were going to get the same monies or more than we get on current deals, you've been drinking out of the same mug as Trump.

One club 5 million people .2nd biggest city in Australia, famous for getting crowds at all sporting events ,growing faster than Sydney.A modern stadium ,that relies on Kiwis to get the crowds ,with many G/F appearances, no junior production line coming through the club, spending a lot of time going to NZ to buy players .

Melbourne has two all seater stadiums(for AFL) all centralised with excellent transport infrastructure to these places.The city is nowhere near as geographically spread as Sydney nor have a Harbour to further complicate transport.

Cost of living housing wise in Sydney is greater than Melbourne.
Sydney has two AFL clubs ,Melbourne has one NRL club.Thus Melbourne has no other NRL club chasing members or fans.

The question to be posed if all Sydney NRL clubs had all seater stadiums with decent cover (and they don't have to be the size of Bankwest), it's reasonable to suggest their crowds would increase .

Well I can cite the Sharks.In 2016 when the won their way to the G/F of the 80 plus thousand fans on deck, the overwhelming majority were in Shark's colours.And even the semi against teh Cows had a big crowd at the SFS.
When I travel around the Shire ,there are countless numbers of vehicles with Shark's number plates.I see oldies with Sharks beanies, kids with Sharks jumpers, or caps on.Now they may not attend games at present week on week, but they are supporters by buying merchandise, and if they know they can go to a game when it rains with cover via a stand the chances of them attending are far better.IOW there is an undercurrent of tribal support in addition to the fanatics.You aim to get them involved by offering better facilities.
That is what tribalism is all about fanatics, casuals and the sleepers. LIke any tribe under attack, they rise up together as one.It is built up over the generations.
If as the above example shows, you think relocating or wiping such a club will solve expansion and crowd problems in the NRL, then you are still living in Hull.And if you believe tribalism is not important have a chat with an Eels or Souths fan.

Its funny that the majority of your arguments actually support the ideas of centralised stadiums and relocations....

 

[taipan]

Its funny that the majority of your arguments actually support the ideas of centralised stadiums and relocations....

I'd like to know how I support relocations ,when I've been banging on about local tribalism where clubs are domiciled,
and commenting on the lack of support from former Bears' fans who lost a team, ditto souths for a couple of years.Tribalism doesn't come with relocation.
Also stating with 4 mergers and one being flicked Sydney has done enough rationalising.We can't crack big crowds with the Titans in a decent stadium, in an area with 600k people.
And stating Sydney is the base of the code, also we have not one but two AFL clubs competing for fans, relocation of an NRL club would be a gift for them.


If we had the transport infrastructure and Sydney was not spread out far greater than Melbourne, and the speed to get to an all seater centralised stadiums with direct line access in Sydney I'd give it a shot.
If clubs can eventually build boutique stadiums near their base, why not?


When for example you have a family and work in the city and live on the city edges,ATM it just don't work..Hell the Broncos crowds go up and down depending on the scheduling, and they are centralised and a one team club in RL heartland city.The schedules are not on a lot of occasions family friendly.

 

[Hello, I'm The Doctor]

I'd like to know how I support relocations ,when I've been banging on about local tribalism where clubs are domiciled,
and commenting on the lack of support from former Bears' fans who lost a team, ditto souths for a couple of years.Tribalism doesn't come with relocation.
Also stating with 4 mergers and one being flicked Sydney has done enough rationalising.We can't crack big crowds with the Titans in a decent stadium, in an area with 600k people.
And stating Sydney is the base of the code, also we have not one but two AFL clubs competing for fans, relocation of an NRL club would be a gift for them.

If we had the transport infrastructure and Sydney was not spread out far greater than Melbourne, and the speed to get to an all seater centralised stadiums with direct line access in Sydney I'd give it a shot.
If clubs can eventually build boutique stadiums near their base, why not?

When for example you have a family and work in the city and live on the city edges,ATM it just don't work..Hell the Broncos crowds go up and down depending on the scheduling, and they are centralised and a one team club in RL heartland city.The schedules are not on a lot of occasions family friendly.

Shared grounds - you are going on about how Sydney crowds would improve if only we could get decent stadiums (like AAMI and WSS). Since no one is gonna pay for a stadium per club, shared grounds is the only way we get that investment.

Relocation - Storm can get great crowds because they are the only NRL club in a huge city. Meanwhile, Manly/Easts struggle because they are splitting Sydney with 8 other clubs. Obvious fix is to clear a few clubs out of Sydney

You make some pretty strong arguments...

 

[Perth Red]

Shared grounds - you are going on about how Sydney crowds would improve if only we could get decent stadiums (like AAMI and WSS). Since no one is gonna pay for a stadium per club, shared grounds is the only way we get that investment.

Relocation - Storm can get great crowds because they are the only NRL club in a huge city. Meanwhile, Manly/Easts struggle because they are splitting Sydney with 8 other clubs. Obvious fix is to clear a few clubs out of Sydney

You make some pretty strong arguments...

but but but afl will take over, lol.

 

[taipan]

Shared grounds - you are going on about how Sydney crowds would improve if only we could get decent stadiums (like AAMI and WSS). Since no one is gonna pay for a stadium per club, shared grounds is the only way we get that investment.

Relocation - Storm can get great crowds because they are the only NRL club in a huge city. Meanwhile, Manly/Easts struggle because they are splitting Sydney with 8 other clubs. Obvious fix is to clear a few clubs out of Sydney

You make some pretty strong arguments...

For a start Sydney is not Melbourne in so many ways.That has been my point all along.

BTW I stated boutique stadiums ,that is not WSS nor the SFS.You couldn't fit a WSS stadium in Shark Park.Of course no club is going to pay for a WSS type stadium.Clubs have wastede monies in the past.The Sharks on fines/paying out coaches regularly before contract was up/expensive dud players.
Over the 50 plus years of their existence they should have build up a cash reserve, they haven't.Now under strict financial requirements by the NRL, they will have the opportunity to do so, fingers crossed.
The main necessity is having stands with cover.Even ANZ which is a crap oval stadium, has SFA cover for many.


The stadium at Parramatta has brought in the crowds, but that was paid for by the State Govt.And the Eels have a huge supporter base.

That's why in the end ,it will be up to the individual clubs to upgrade their facilities to boutique.State Govts I doubt will spend large sums on more shared stadiums.There is too much angst flying around with Greenies etc, who are dead against the SFS being built again.

Storm's crowds (and I'm not against their presence ,all for it) are in a modern all seater stadium, paid for by State Govt.
They are indeed the only NRL club in a big city, and because they only have the opportunity to go to a game say every fortnight ,they should be packing the place out, after all their Grand Final wind and finals appearances.
My concern is after all these years ,there is not the flow of juniors coming into their first grade team.


Manly and Norths amalgamated for a time, a disaster.The test will be for the Roosters in their new SFS to average crowds of 18k thereabouts, not even half the capacity. Manly crowds would improve with better facilities,the hill is fine in sunshine but in the rain ,open range for pigs.

 

[taipan]

but but but afl will take over, lol.

Thew response I expected form PR.
The Swans were struggling with crowds late 80s early 90s,then SL came in, the the Swans got into the finals, then Souths were turfed, their crowds now are far greater than they were pre SL.
An AFL type in involved with the Swans mentioned in the past the SL war was in many ways a great leg up for the club.
Who is suggesting AFL will take over, if you have half a clue in sporting competition, never give a sucker an even break.You create a vacuum in an area, a cashed up competitor takes advantage of the situation.

Lose a club for whatever reason in rugby league ,their fans based on history do not jump on board en masse to other clubs.They either become a casual Tv watcher, take up another sport like golf or fishing ,parents may well say little Jimmy can try another sport because there is no major NRL club now for him to follow, local junior rl takes a hit and horror of horrors a few end up following fumbleball.

Of course you with your many years of experience living in Sydney, and knowing the sporting landscape from juniors up like the back of your hand, think it's all BS.Oh wait!!

 

[TheFrog]

The Swans were struggling with crowds late 80s early 90s,then SL came in, the the Swans got into the finals, then Souths were turfed, their crowds now are far greater than they were pre SL.
An AFL type in involved with the Swans mentioned in the past the SL war was in many ways a great leg up for the club.

The Swans have missed the finals only 3 times since their "excitement machine" days of 1990-95, when they failed to average 10,000 three years running. Another extended period of mediocrity will see the crowds drop accordingly. Their crowds fell by 10% last year when they missed the finals.

 

[taipan]

The Swans have missed the finals only 3 times since their "excitement machine" days of 1990-95, when they failed to average 10,000 three years running. Another extended period of mediocrity will see the crowds drop accordingly. Their crowds fell by 10% last year when they missed the finals.

I know ,but ask yourself would they have even got to the stage they got to, without the SL war.They were bailed out by Jeans west CEO and then by Willessee.
Without SL leg up I doubt they would have lasted til 2000.Let's face it rugby leagues shooting itself in the foot from 95-2005 didn't help.
And we had $20m in the Bank in 95 and the AFL $6m just before SL.We blew the lot.

 

[Perth Red]

Lose a club for whatever reason in rugby league ,their fans based on history do not jump on board en masse to other clubs.They either become a casual Tv watcher, take up another sport like golf or fishing ,parents may well say little Jimmy can try another sport because there is no major NRL club now for him to follow, local junior rl takes a hit and horror of horrors a few end up following fumbleball.

hang on it’s not like perth where you lose a club and there isn’t another one in 2000kms! Lose a Sydney club and there’s still a heap within 40kms of your house! Such a suburban mentality that you have to have a club within 10kms or people won’t follow the game.

 

[Frailty]

Much like most things, the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Losing a club doesn't lose their entire fanbase, but it does impact the total fan numbers. I know heaps of fans that were hardcore Norths fans are now fans of other clubs in Sydney. Probably not as heavily invested, except for when playing Manly, but they are still spending money towards the NRL. Nonetheless, this isn't true for many. If Cronulla were to fold, I'd be a casual fan, but I wouldn't be invested nearly as much.

However, if you're losing those fans, are you replacing them with a new expansion area and creating new fans? If so, the total benefit to the game would be greater.

 

[Frailty]

So question for everyone on Peter V'Landys:

How will everyone feel when he has cut investment in the game to give more money to clubs, signed an extension to the TV rights during an economic downturn, changed how the game is officiated based on a News Limited poll, and then leaves because there is zero change he will stay to run both the NRL and Racing NSW?

 

[unforgiven]

hang on it’s not like perth where you lose a club and there isn’t another one in 2000kms! Lose a Sydney club and there’s still a heap within 40kms of your house! Such a suburban mentality that you have to have a club within 10kms or people won’t follow the game.

It is not about the team being within 10kms of my home, one of the teams in the NRL plays 3kms from my house. I do not support that team, in fact I really dislike them. I support a team that plays around an hour from where I live. It's about taking away the team people have supported all their lives, spent 10's to 100's of thousands of dollars on. If my lifetime support and financial contribution to the game and my club is thrown away by the game, why would I continue to invest in this sport? Who would I support anyway? I hate the other clubs as they are enemies to what I want to see my club achieve.

 

[TheFrog]

Such a suburban mentality that you have to have a club within 10kms or people won’t follow the game.

Doesn't seem to be a problem for AFL fans in Melbourne, where all 8 Melbourne teams are within 8km of the CBD.

 

[T-Boon]

If Cronulla were to fold, I'd be a casual fan, but I wouldn't be invested nearly as much.

However, if you're losing those fans, are you replacing them with a new expansion area and creating new fans? If so, the total benefit to the game would be greater.

Would you find it hard to continue supporting the Sharks if they relocated (lets say to Gosford) but played a bunch of games at the new Moore park stadium?

 

[TheFrog]

I know ,but ask yourself would they have even got to the stage they got to, without the SL war.They were bailed out by Jeans west CEO and then by Willessee.
Without SL leg up I doubt they would have lasted til 2000.Let's face it rugby leagues shooting itself in the foot from 95-2005 didn't help.
And we had $20m in the Bank in 95 and the AFL $6m just before SL.We blew the lot.

You have to wonder why there wasn't a SuperLeague war in AFL.

 

[Quicksilver]

Doesn't seem to be a problem for AFL fans in Melbourne, where all 8 Melbourne teams are within 8km of the CBD.

Yep. At least our clubs are based around widespread regions/districts of the city. Theirs are actually inner-city suburbs. The Sutherland Junior League itself probably has a similar geographical footprint to most of the suburban VFL teams.

 

[Frailty]

Would you find it hard to continue supporting the Sharks if they relocated (lets say to Gosford) but played a bunch of games at the new Moore park stadium?

It's probably easy for me to say I wouldn't find that an issue as I relocated to Melbourne, so most of my support is via watching on TV and merch. It'd be hard to say the same thing when I lived in Sydney and loved driving to Shark Park with my best mate.

 

[TheFrog]

Would you find it hard to continue supporting the Sharks if they relocated (lets say to Gosford) but played a bunch of games at the new Moore park stadium?

I know it's just a hypothetical, but that would be a foolish move indeed.

 

[Perth Red]

So question for everyone on Peter V'Landys:

How will everyone feel when he has cut investment in the game to give more money to clubs, signed an extension to the TV rights during an economic downturn, changed how the game is officiated based on a News Limited poll, and then leaves because there is zero change he will stay to run both the NRL and Racing NSW?

On his plus side he is the bull in a china shop we probably need for this immediate crisis. On the negative side pushing through decisions could lead to some serious long term damage to the game. Ultimately we will judge him on the TV deal and what it gains/costs us. Too early to call yet.