Rationalisation of Sydney

[taipan]

I've lived in both Western sydney and the inner city my entire life, and no one's calling Canterbury-Bankstown the inner city. The suburb of Canterbury might edge in on some technicality but Belmore and Bankstown not even close.
Demographically and financially the CBD and inner city is worlds apart from the suburbs.



Which is why most of them play out of 1-2 stadiums and places like Kogarah, Wooloware, Leichhardt and Brookvale will fall further and further behind because no government will fund them enough to keep up. Belmore and Redfern already have.



Forget trying to plonk teams equal distances apart. It doesn't reflect reality. The further west you go, the less population density, the less money, and the less national marketability.

The future of professional Rugby League will go where the money is.
The stadium upgrades are already locked in.

Roosters, Souths, Bulldogs, Parra all are happy enough playing out of modern, central stadiums and are well positioned financially. No one is going to cut them to preserve some outskirt suburban park.
Penrith has regional significance and the wealthiest megaclub in all the lands. Safe as houses.
Wests and St George have options available to them but some big decisions to make.
Manly and Cronulla sit at the bottom of the pile. They have the most to gain by relocating and are at the most risk by staying put.
The NRL will not axe or relocate anyone unless they go bust. If I was running a club that was at high risk, i'd be making a big decision before the NRL does it for me.

I'd really like to know what Cronulla has to gain by relocating, when they are already positioning themselves financially ,a large junior league, owning their ground with the Centre of Excellence being incorporated within their grounds as part of the refurbishment, and a retail complex/hotel/newleagues club right next door, and a decent fan base (as indicated yesterday).
The only thing to gain by relocating, is money, and if they are self supporting the whole concept is BS.The Sharks now are not at high risk,they were perhaps 12 months ago.

You guys can't even get committed crowds at the SCG right next door to your old base ,except ANZAC day.All this whilst running second in the comp.

If truth be known Roosters and Rabbitohs play at the new SFS.Dogs and Tigers at the new ANZ.

 

[taipan]

That is an interesting debate. How do we measure what demand should be? Should it be 20k going to games? Well apart from one club no one in the NRL is there yet. Maybe 25k members is the bar? or more people watching on TV (TBH TV audiences in Sydney are pretty poor in terms of per pop watching)? Hpw do you set the bar for what the demand should be? Would be better off with 5 clubs drawing 25k or 9 clubs drawing 13k? At the moment no one is going bust so until that happensits hard to make an argument one way or the other.

And you can throw in interstate clubs with bad seasons averaging 10,000 in a one city town.Is that a good look for the game and TV viewing?
The St George club was the trendsetter for following, crowds and TV ratings,This year with crowds has been an unmitigated disaster.

 

[The Great Dane]

I'd really like to know what Cronulla has to gain by relocating, when they are already positioning themselves financially ,a large junior league, owning their ground with the Centre of Excellence being incorporated within their grounds as part of the refurbishment, and a retail complex/hotel/newleagues club right next door, and a decent fan base (as indicated yesterday).
The only thing to gain by relocating, is money, and if they are self supporting the whole concept is BS.The Sharks now are not at high risk,they were perhaps 12 months ago.

You guys can't even get committed crowds at the SCG right next door to your old base ,except ANZAC day.All this whilst running second in the comp.

If truth be known Roosters and Rabbitohs play at the new SFS.Dogs and Tigers at the new ANZ.

Cronulla wouldn't really have anything to gain, but rationalisation isn't about what's best for this or that club, it's about what's best for the sport and the competition as a whole.

 

[Stallion]

The size of the population doesn't equate to the amount of demand for the product in that city, and it's pretty bloody obvious that the supply doesn't meet the demand in Sydney.

Wrong. Your answer implies that rugby league is not good enough to attract such numbers! We differ completely! Go back to your union loving hole!

 

[Stallion]

The biggest problem is not that there are too many teams in Sydney, business economics will eventually sort that out, but that expansion and growth of the game is being held back by a lack of confidence in all teams being able to thrive. The NRL should just have a growth plan (id even be radical and NOT televise the two extra games a week other than on own digital channel) for 4 new clubs over next ten years and bring them in. Stop worrying about if current clubs can survive. If the TV deal is only for 8 games a weekend and we have ten games in a 20 team comp then if 4 clubs go bust so be it, we can still deliver the TV deal. Would make it more interesting to not have every club on TV ever week.

NRL has run this year at a $42mill surplus and is still spending squillions on stuff it can cut back so the money is there to grow regardless of if TV want it.

Excellent thinking PR . Positive, practical and progressive. It's really poor administration and lack of proactive vision/action that's inhibiting the much needed genuine growth without implosion of this competition.

 

[Stallion]

NRL has been very clear since 2013 it has been reluctant to expand as it is worried about the viability if existing clubs and it wont expand from a position of weakness. Given we've had the Tigers, Dragons, Sharks and rumored Manly all in some sort of financial stress during that time I dont think its a stretch to say struggling clubs are holding back growth?

That's a bullshit excuse! That is a cop out! Their are poor administrators having the code sit on its hands for the past few decades. Their is also an agenda fueled by other organisations not wanting this code/ competition grow. That's the underlying truth of this scenario constraining this great code/competition.

 

[MugaB]

Your comment does not consider the massive population that occupies the Illawarra, greater Sydney and the Central Coast. The carve up talk is trash and purely aimed to weaken this great and envied competition.

My comments was only speaking to the cluster of teams in the South-East part of Sydney, having that there are too many teams geographicaly near each other in that 25km radius, where if we had less, Central coast and Wollongong would benefit with its own team, obviously this isn't speaking to how viable the club would be successfully, but if geographicaly spread out of Sydney, not culled or merged, just not all clustered there so close,
That being roosters, souths, dogs, dragons, sharks and somewhat tigers (when at leichardt)
I know youve said in the past tigers to campbelltown moreso and dragons to wollongong too, which if it worked financially, and crowds/memberships were as popular as the knights previous 3 seasons, regardless of success on field would ease the rationale debate.
But i feel there is a need to move at least one team completely out sydney, with relocation to prosper the game as a whole to encapsulate a new market, as a start up club in Adelaide would most likely fail, but a successful team might only have a few years of teething problems.

 

[Stallion]

My comments was only speaking to the cluster of teams in the South-East part of Sydney, having that there are too many teams geographicaly near each other in that 25km radius, where if we had less, Central coast and Wollongong would benefit with its own team, obviously this isn't speaking to how viable the club would be successfully, but if geographicaly spread out of Sydney, not culled or merged, just not all clustered there so close,
That being roosters, souths, dogs, dragons, sharks and somewhat tigers (when at leichardt)
I know youve said in the past tigers to campbelltown moreso and dragons to wollongong too, which if it worked financially, and crowds/memberships were as popular as the knights previous 3 seasons, regardless of success on field would ease the rationale debate.
But i feel there is a need to move at least one team completely out sydney, with relocation to prosper the game as a whole to encapsulate a new market, as a start up club in Adelaide would most likely fail, but a successful team might only have a few years of teething problems.

In the contrary : another consolidation club is required for northern Sydney: namely the Central Coast Bears. The clubs you mention are much-loved and are widely known . This is the strength of the Sydney clubs. Diluting this strength will only piss off fans and confirm doubt in the minds of possible neutral fans looking to support a club into the future. Existing clubs are a strength. Their needs to be two more top flight clubs put into the NRL. The "easy ones" are Central Coast Bears and Brisbane 2. But this common sense approach is not being adopted. I fear it's people with intentions on minimising the code/competition as much as possible.

 

[Diesel]

Gus came out saying the way forward should be two conferences of 9 teams. One Sydney based and one regional with each team playing their own premiership and playing a super bowl the week after. Problem with 9 team conferences is there is two teams that have a bye each week. Would only work if there was one inter-conference game each week of the comp.

 

[The Silverdale Phantom]

It’s the usual corporate spin.

They should reintroduce Glebe, Uni, Annandale, Newtown and a new team at Kellyville. Perhaps a side from Forest Lodge and Macdonaldtown.

 

[taipan]

Gus went against his own ch9's Malone.He said getting rid of Sydney clubs is stupid, you lose those fans ,they don't come back, regardless what some think.You weaken your home base to the benefit of others.
He wants a 2 conference system of 18 teams.And with a country of our geographical size and the opportunity to reduce travel costs sounds like a mighty fine idea to me.

The Herald's Webster also tied in with 9 agreed with the stupidity of getting rid of Sydney clubs.

Then on NRL 360 Paul Kent blew me off the carpet, stated getting rid of Sydney clubs is plain ridiculous, as did as expected the flush faced ferret headed journo we all love to bag.
Even the nerd Ikin agreed that cutting more clubs is not the answer.

Then on Controversy Corner they were unanimous getting rid of Sydney clubs was dumbo stuff.In fact Blocker went off his rocker responding to the idea, and Buzz's decibel meter melted as a result.

You'd never want Blocker as lead army scout in a patrol in the jungle, the enemy could hear him 10kms away.When evolution provided ear drums, they gave Blocker a full size drum kit.

The only media ones I know of getting rid of Sydney clubs ,are those powers of intellectual thought Freddie and Andrew Johns.Amazing ,none of their clubs are involved in any sort of possible relocation.

 

[taipan]

Gus came out saying the way forward should be two conferences of 9 teams. One Sydney based and one regional with each team playing their own premiership and playing a super bowl the week after. Problem with 9 team conferences is there is two teams that have a bye each week. Would only work if there was one inter-conference game each week of the comp.

You make it 3 conferences 3x6
Messenge, Churchill, Beetson conferences
In each confined you play the other 5 teams twice = 10 games
Play the 12 other teams in the other 2 conferences once= 12 games
A 22 round NRL comp.You can swap teams around each year to ensure they all end up playing each other twice.Especially the grudge matches and local derbies.
You have ample time available for 3 SOO matches
For rep matches over a weekend
For the NRL final series.
You also maximise crowds ,keeping the ch9 Malones of this world happy.

 

[The Silverdale Phantom]

Gus went against his own ch9's Malone.He said getting rid of Sydney clubs is stupid, you lose those fans ,they don't come back, regardless what some think.You weaken your home base to the benefit of others.
He wants a 2 conference system of 18 teams.And with a country of our geographical size and the opportunity to reduce travel costs sounds like a mighty fine idea to me.

The Herald's Webster also tied in with 9 agreed with the stupidity of getting rid of Sydney clubs.

Then on NRL 360 Paul Kent blew me off the carpet, stated getting rid of Sydney clubs is plain ridiculous, as did as expected the flush faced ferret headed journo we all love to bag.
Even the nerd Ikin agreed that cutting more clubs is not the answer.

Then on Controversy Corner they were unanimous getting rid of Sydney clubs was dumbo stuff.In fact Blocker went off his rocker responding to the idea, and Buzz's decibel meter melted as a result.

You'd never want Blocker as lead army scout in a patrol in the jungle, the enemy could hear him 10kms away.When evolution provided ear drums, they gave Blocker a full size drum kit.

The only media ones I know of getting rid of Sydney clubs ,are those powers of intellectual thought Freddie and Andrew Johns.Amazing ,none of their clubs are involved in any sort of possible relocation.

It amazes me that elite footballers are placed on an intellectual pedestal after their career.

“Create a team and fans will come” has a great history: Mariners, Perth Reds, Northen Eagles, Crushers, Steelers, Rams etc spring to mind.

They couldn’t even get a team that had a massive captive audience catchment in the entire Illawarra to survive financially.

They would be better off getting the existing fan base to engage more by

A) more free TV games at better times
B) more dollar value in memberships
C) better and much cheaper game day experiences including entry and catering
D) better and broader internet access.
E) better promotion.
F) less interference with the rule of law.
G) less media interference.
H) cheaper and better quality merchandising

People will respond with more rewards.

The nrl has a massive surplus and they need to use it.

Expansion is just spitting into an open fire. Rationalisation is a sick joke by the league’s village idiots.

 

[MugaB]

In the contrary : another cinsoxidation club is required for northern Sydney: namely the Central Coast Bears. The clubs you mention are much-loved and are widely known . This is thev strength of the Sydney clubs. Diluting this strength will only piss off fans and confirm doubt in the minds of possible neutral fans looking to support a club into the future. Existing clubs are a strength. Their needs to be two more tip flight clubs put into the NRL. The "easy ones" are Central Coast Bears and Brisbane 2. But this common sense approach is not being adopted. I fear it's people with intentions on minimising the code/competition as much as possible.

Yeah ok i get it, you want the bears back in northern Sydney or Central Coast, but thats not going to happen when there is 9 teams represented in Sydney now. As i again said move a few teams out, namely dragons in wollongong moreso, and tigers in campbelltown moreso, relocate souths, relocate roosters, they'll be 3 less teams represented in the Sydney footprint, then you can have a central coast bears come in the future, and Sydney won't look so overcrowded.
Parra, Penrith, Canterbury, Cronulla, Manly and Wests in Sydney, makes 6 clubs, then Dragons@WIN, Bears @CC

Relocating 2 of the more famous Sydney clubs, should work better than relocating a failing Gold coast to brisbane, keeping the brands alive, by playing several matches vs each other back in sydney should be enough, as the games they play against other teams generally don't pack out, souths vs roosters, roosters vs dragons, souths vs tigers, these games play at the SCG, SFS or ANZ, otherwise all other games can be played wherever they've been relocated to.
Again ive been saying relocating souths to brisbane, and roosters to Adelaide, frees up the Sydney market for all the other clubs.
Why start a brand new Adelaide franchise that could tank like GC, if you have the roosters.

Btw Gus on nine mentioned a conference system with 20 teams, not sure if he said it last night, but he did say it on his podcast a month ago, when there was discussion on expansion. Im not sure segregation of sydney clubs vs regional would be fair.
Imagine warriors, cowboysor melbourne every second week travelling long distances, whilst the Sydney teams bus it cross town, every week, totally unfair

 

[flippikat]

That's a bullshit excuse! That is a cop out! Their are poor administrators having the code sit on its hands for the past few decades. Their is also an agenda fueled by other organisations not wanting this code/ competition grow. That's the underlying truth of this scenario constraining this great code/competition.

The more I think about it, maybe the NRL should just say "Nevermind trying to pick winners & losers in trying to rationalize Sydney, let's just add 4 teams in expansion markets we want (ala 1995), crank up the Salary Cap & let attrition do the work."

It may mean some lousy years with some crap teams, but in the long run it may work out?

 

[Stallion]

Nine team

Yeah ok i get it, you want the bears back in northern Sydney or Central Coast, but thats not going to happen when there is 9 teams represented in Sydney now. As i again said move a few teams out, namely dragons in wollongong moreso, and tigers in campbelltown moreso, relocate souths, relocate roosters, they'll be 3 less teams represented in the Sydney footprint, then you can have a central coast bears come in the future, and Sydney won't look so overcrowded.
Parra, Penrith, Canterbury, Cronulla, Manly and Wests in Sydney, makes 6 clubs, then Dragons@WIN, Bears @CC

Relocating 2 of the more famous Sydney clubs, should work better than relocating a failing Gold coast to brisbane, keeping the brands alive, by playing several matches vs each other back in sydney should be enough, as the games they play against other teams generally don't pack out, souths vs roosters, roosters vs dragons, souths vs tigers, these games play at the SCG, SFS or ANZ, otherwise all other games can be played wherever they've been relocated to.
Again ive been saying relocating souths to brisbane, and roosters to Adelaide, frees up the Sydney market for all the other clubs.
Why start a brand new Adelaide franchise that could tank like GC, if you have the roosters.

Btw Gus on nine mentioned a conference system with 20 teams, not sure if he said it last night, but he did say it on his podcast a month ago, when there was discussion on expansion. Im not sure segregation of sydney clubs vs regional would be fair.
Imagine warriors, cowboysor melbourne every second week travelling long distances, whilst the Sydney teams bus it cross town, every week, totally unfair

Nine teams are not just representing Sydney. They are representing from the Illawarra , throughout Sydney and its West and through to northern Sydney . This is massive. And established clubs are gold as they are well known and just that ESTABLISHED!

 

[Perth Red]

Gus went against his own ch9's Malone.He said getting rid of Sydney clubs is stupid, you lose those fans ,they don't come back, regardless what some think.You weaken your home base to the benefit of others.
He wants a 2 conference system of 18 teams.And with a country of our geographical size and the opportunity to reduce travel costs sounds like a mighty fine idea to me.

The Herald's Webster also tied in with 9 agreed with the stupidity of getting rid of Sydney clubs.

Then on NRL 360 Paul Kent blew me off the carpet, stated getting rid of Sydney clubs is plain ridiculous, as did as expected the flush faced ferret headed journo we all love to bag.
Even the nerd Ikin agreed that cutting more clubs is not the answer.

Then on Controversy Corner they were unanimous getting rid of Sydney clubs was dumbo stuff.In fact Blocker went off his rocker responding to the idea, and Buzz's decibel meter melted as a result.

You'd never want Blocker as lead army scout in a patrol in the jungle, the enemy could hear him 10kms away.When evolution provided ear drums, they gave Blocker a full size drum kit.

The only media ones I know of getting rid of Sydney clubs ,are those powers of intellectual thought Freddie and Andrew Johns.Amazing ,none of their clubs are involved in any sort of possible relocation.

Who’d have thought, a load of Sydney blokes don’t want change in Sydney but happy to let the Gold Coast fans lose their only team. what’s the saying about doing the same thing the same way?

 

[flippikat]

Who’d have thought, a load of Sydney blokes don’t want change in Sydney but happy to let the Gold Coast fans lose their only team. what’s the saying about doing the same thing the same way?

Sydney privilege strikes again, I'm afraid ..

 

[adamkungl]

The more I think about it, maybe the NRL should just say "Nevermind trying to pick winners & losers in trying to rationalize Sydney, let's just add 4 teams in expansion markets we want (ala 1995), crank up the Salary Cap & let attrition do the work."

It may mean some lousy years with some crap teams, but in the long run it may work out?

Close enough

The current cap guarantee of 130% would fund 2 new teams by dropping to 115%.
Launch Perth and Brisbane 2, leave the cap at its current level, and drop the per club funding by $1.5M

It would be obvious very quickly who sinks and who swims

 

[greenBV4]

The more I think about it, maybe the NRL should just say "Nevermind trying to pick winners & losers in trying to rationalize Sydney, let's just add 4 teams in expansion markets we want (ala 1995), crank up the Salary Cap & let attrition do the work."

It may mean some lousy years with some crap teams, but in the long run it may work out?

This! Noone in the NRL has the balls to axe a team (and fair enough its not the easiest choice) so they should sit down with the Sydney clubs, tell them their plans, and offer them one last time to express interest in relocating

It then becomes survival of the fittest in Sydney with 18 and later 20 teams in the league and higher costs for the clubs

Expansion clubs (and any Sydney club who chose to relocate) will recieve concessions while "teething", and eventually the struggling clubs will either show themselves the door, or becomes stronger from it and the league ends up being able to maintain it