Rebuilding Phase

[bartman]

You're only seeing half the picture you f**king simpleton. :crazy:

The players might have been moved on by any other coach, but Kearney and Nolan have refilled our squad with young blokes on the way up.

Rod Reddy was sacked on 27 July 2011 - link. So Nolan would have started some time after that - let's say start of August 2011 just to allow the benefit of the doubt.

So, since in the first half of the picture we agreed that there hasn't really been any broom other than natural casues, let's see which of these young players we can truly give credit to the Kearney and Nolan pairing for bringing in to "re-fill our squad" as you claimed (comments in green) versus those who have progressed to grade through natural causes (comments in red)?

The following players all have their best footy in front of them:

Mullaney - announced late 2011 from Wests Tigers, so yes
Sio - was already playing Parra NYC from 2009 (pre-Kearney&Nolan), so no
Blair - announced late 2011 from Sydney Roosters, so yes
Morgan - Greystanes junior playing Eels NYC in 2010 (pre-Kearney&Nolan), so no
Kelly - signed mid-2012, so yes
Sandow - signed late 2011, so yes
Mannah - Guildford junior, Eels First Grade debut 2009, so nothing to do with Kearney&Nolan
Allgood - joined Wenty from 2010, so again nothing to do with Kearney&Nolan
Ryan - signed in June 2011, so pre-Nolan
Paulo - debuted for Eels 22 July 2011, so pre-Nolan
Loko - Cabramatta junior, Parra NYC in 2010, so pre Kearney&Nolan
Lasalo - Eels Toyota Cup and NRL debut 2009, pre-Kearney&Nolan
O'Hanlon - Eels NYC 2010, pre-Kearney&Nolan
Tonga - announced May 2011 from Cowboys, so pre-Nolan
Barba - signed before the end of the 2010 season for Eels 2011, so pre-Kearney&Nolan
Hopoate - signed October 2011, so I'll give you that one
Lussick - obviously yes
Harrison - obviously yes

All signed and/or re-signed by the current staff.

Actually, only 7 out of your list of 18 young players are at the club as a result of current staff (Kearney&Nolan) or 10 out of 18 (if we count ones signed by Kearney&Reddy). Being generous that's about HALF of your original claim that "Kearney and Nolan have refilled our squad with young blokes on the way up" - talk about seeing only HALF of the picture, you <insert derogatory term here> :crazy:

If you want to argue that the re-signing of players that were already at the club by current staff is some conscious decision or amazing "plan" to re-fill our squad with youth - rather than recognising natural causes and development that would have occurred over time anyway - then go right ahead, it might be amusing... :lol:

Fans of pretty much any club could post a list of their 18 youngest players with potential - but to do so and try and give credit to two particular staff - who had nothing to do with getting half of them here in the first place - seems a bit desperate!

#3amigos

 

[cv8z]

Rod Reddy was sacked on 27 July 2011 - link. So Nolan would have started some time after that - let's say start of August 2011 just to allow the benefit of the doubt.

So, since in the first half of the picture we agreed that there hasn't really been any broom other than natural casues, let's see which of these young players we can truly give credit to the Kearney and Nolan pairing for bringing in to "re-fill our squad" as you claimed (comments in green) versus those who have progressed to grade through natural causes (comments in red)?




Actually, only 7 out of your list of 18 young players are at the club as a result of current staff (Kearney&Nolan) or 10 out of 18 (if we count ones signed by Kearney&Reddy). Being generous that's about HALF of your original claim that "Kearney and Nolan have refilled our squad with young blokes on the way up" - talk about seeing only HALF of the picture, you <insert derogatory term here> :crazy:

If you want to argue that the re-signing of players that were already at the club by current staff is some conscious decision or amazing "plan" to re-fill our squad with youth - rather than recognising natural causes and development that would have occurred over time anyway - then go right ahead, it might be amusing... :lol:

Fans of pretty much any club could post a list of their 18 youngest players with potential - but to do so and try and give credit to two particular staff - who had nothing to do with getting half of them here in the first place - seems a bit desperate!

#3amigos

According to Nolan he started January 2011
I think you'll find that the rate of our juniors being poached of told they're not nrl material has diminished of late

 

[Eels Dude]

Brisbane seem to be going ok with juniors after sacking Nolan.

 

[bartman]

Ok, so even January 2011 doesn't change any of the above dates/categories for the players mentioned. Half of what Poupou claimed was actually true.

Juniors are always there - especially at our fertile nursery. And you can only afford to keep the same numbers coming through the system into the squad spots in NYC (less if we buy in players from outside). So just by weight of numbers I reckon the same amount would have to be being told they're not NRL material?

The trick is getting those choices right. It was posted that we have 3 players in the Australia Schoolboys squad, with a further two that came under consideration? What chance us being able to keep all five of them through NYC and into first grade? Other clubs are always going to come calling, and odds are that another club with more need and money to offer will pinch at least one. We just can't keep them all - Nolan or no Nolan.

Nolan has a good reputation, so maybe he will get more of them right than our guys did before. Or maybe, just because of the size of our junior nursery, we will still have some juniors pop up elsewhere and make it to grade outside the eels too? That causes angst for some Parra fans, but it seems unavoidable given the amount of young talent consistently produced in our areas.

 

[cv8z]

Brisbane seem to be going ok with juniors after sacking Nolan.

So do we

 

[Poupou Escobar]

Rod Reddy was sacked on 27 July 2011 - link. So Nolan would have started some time after that - let's say start of August 2011 just to allow the benefit of the doubt.

So, since in the first half of the picture we agreed that there hasn't really been any broom other than natural casues

Not at all. He's moved on a few blokes mid-contract, as well as most if not all of the coaching staff.

Then there's all the blokes he didn't re-sign that some other coach did sign. Ageing players re-sign for big bucks all the time (Cayless, Hindmarsh and Burt are good examples). Why do you think it would be any different under a different coach?

let's see which of these young players we can truly give credit to the Kearney and Nolan pairing for bringing in to "re-fill our squad" as you claimed (comments in green) versus those who have progressed to grade through natural causes (comments in red)?

If you go down this slippery slope, bart, you take credit away from any coach who gives a young player his debut.

I'm sure you don't want to do that.

Actually, only 7 out of your list of 18 young players are at the club as a result of current staff (Kearney&Nolan) or 10 out of 18 (if we count ones signed by Kearney&Reddy).

All of them are. Because even the ones who came through our juniors were retained (unlike Tony Williams, for example).

Being generous that's about HALF of your original claim that "Kearney and Nolan have refilled our squad with young blokes on the way up" - talk about seeing only HALF of the picture, you <insert derogatory term here> :crazy:

As you can see, this statement is just wrong, since I disproved the argument underpinning it.

If you want to argue that the re-signing of players that were already at the club by current staff is some conscious decision or amazing "plan"

Here's your problem bart - you create strawmen arguments that detract from your credibility (I never said the plan is "amazing" so why use that term? Kearney doesn't need to be an innovator to do a good job sticking to a recruitment/retention plan).

to re-fill our squad with youth - rather than recognising natural causes and development that would have occurred over time anyway - then go right ahead, it might be amusing... :lol:

You assume signing young players with potential is a given. The fact is it is not, as proven by our recruiting of seasoned first graders as a stop-gap until our youngsters are ready to step up.

Fans of pretty much any club could post a list of their 18 youngest players with potential

The difference is ours are all signed to fulltime contracts. I didn't include NYC players like Tanginoa, Masinamua, Seage, et al.

- but to do so and try and give credit to two particular staff - who had nothing to do with getting half of them here in the first place - seems a bit desperate!

As we can see, you've overlooked the majority of the facts (as usual) in order to put forward a typically dishonest argument.

#3amigos

 

[bartman]

:lol:

#icanseerightthroughyou
#itmustbeveryboringinwa :crazy:

 

[cv8z]

Ok, so even January 2011 doesn't change any of the above dates/categories for the players mentioned. Half of what Poupou claimed was actually true.

Juniors are always there - especially at our fertile nursery. And you can only afford to keep the same numbers coming through the system into the squad spots in NYC (less if we buy in players from outside). So just by weight of numbers I reckon the same amount would have to be being told they're not NRL material?

The trick is getting those choices right. It was posted that we have 3 players in the Australia Schoolboys squad, with a further two that came under consideration? What chance us being able to keep all five of them through NYC and into first grade? Other clubs are always going to come calling, and odds are that another club with more need and money to offer will pinch at least one. We just can't keep them all - Nolan or no Nolan.

Nolan has a good reputation, so maybe he will get more of them right than our guys did before. Or maybe, just because of the size of our junior nursery, we will still have some juniors pop up elsewhere and make it to grade outside the eels too? That causes angst for some Parra fans, but it seems unavoidable given the amount of young talent consistently produced in our areas.

[/QUOTE]

Yeh your right
Our best years in the last 2 decades were under crusher
Worst under reddy
Hopefully nolan can be at least in between those 2 as far as ability to indentify and keep te right mix of juniors coming through

 

[Eels Dude]

Actually, only 7 out of your list of 18 young players are at the club as a result of current staff (Kearney&Nolan) or 10 out of 18 (if we count ones signed by Kearney&Reddy). Being generous that's about HALF of your original claim that "Kearney and Nolan have refilled our squad with young blokes on the way up" - talk about seeing only HALF of the picture, you <insert derogatory term here> :crazy:

If you want to argue that the re-signing of players that were already at the club by current staff is some conscious decision or amazing "plan" to re-fill our squad with youth - rather than recognising natural causes and development that would have occurred over time anyway - then go right ahead, it might be amusing... :lol:

Fans of pretty much any club could post a list of their 18 youngest players with potential - but to do so and try and give credit to two particular staff - who had nothing to do with getting half of them here in the first place - seems a bit desperate!

#3amigos

I think you're a bit off with the dates in regards to Nolan's appointment but regardless Poupou's reasoning is very one dimensional. Every player has their best footy in front of them at the age of 20 21... but that doesn't mean they'll become first graders. For every one Jarryd Hayne there's four or five Daniel Mortimors, Weller Haurakis, Junior Paulos, Josh Cordobas, Broderick Wrights, Jeremy Latimores... well the list is endless. Just because a player is young doesn't mean he's going to be a solid career rugby league player. The miss list is much longer than the hit list so if that's all you're relying on you're pretty screwed.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

Brisbane seem to be going ok with juniors after sacking Nolan.

And so will we after we sack him. For a while anyway.

 

[cv8z]

Where did that pic come from?

 

[Poupou Escobar]

:lol:

#icanseerightthroughyou
#itmustbeveryboringinwa :crazy:

:lol:

As usual you've been outsmarted and now you're just resorting to bullshit. :crazy:

#I'mConcurrentlyWatchingMadeInChelsea

 

[Poupou Escobar]

Our best years in the last 2 decades were under crusher
Worst under reddy

Spot on.

Noel Cleal has been our biggest loss in the past thirty years. If Peter Nolan is even half as good as him he's an inspired signing.

 

[Poupou Escobar]

I think you're a bit off with the dates in regards to Nolan's appointment but regardless Poupou's reasoning is very one dimensional. Every player has their best footy in front of them at the age of 20 21...

Wrong. Most players that age have no football in front of them. Statistically speaking.

but that doesn't mean they'll become first graders.

You're right, which is where a quality recruitment/retention officer is worth his weight in gold.

For every one Jarryd Hayne there's four or five Daniel Mortimors, Weller Haurakis, Junior Paulos, Josh Cordobas, Broderick Wrights, Jeremy Latimores... well the list is endless.

Most of those guys were at least good enough to make some club's fulltime squad. The key is getting them cheap enough to be a good signing. Mortimer's a great signing as a backup player on a backup's contract. But a shithouse signing on $200k+

Just because a player is young doesn't mean he's going to be a solid career rugby league player. The miss list is much longer than the hit list so if that's all you're relying on you're pretty screwed.

No I'm going off the fact that we have an obvious focus on youth coupled with staff from proven development systems - Nolan recruited most of the current Broncos, Arthur won an under 20s premiership with the Storm, and Kearney placed the witches hats.

We all know Hagan and Reddy must have had some kind of system as well, but even back then they worried me. Especially when Jason Taylor blew up about it in public.

When Brian Smith came to the club I was excited about his ability to develop youngsters, because I'd admired it when he was at the Dragons. Kearney doesn't have that track record but he brought Peter Nolan with him (whom I was well aware of at Brisbane) and Brad Arthur (who I remember watching captain our Presidents Cup side back in the mid 90s, not to mention his work with many of the Storm's current squad), and I'm excited about the way our squad is taking shape.

 

[bartman]

:lol:

As usual you've been outsmarted and now you're just resorting to bullshit. :crazy:

#I'mConcurrentlyWatchingMadeInChelsea

The day circular logic/bullshit like the stuff you posted above outsmarts anyone will be a sad day indeed.

#thatchelseagoesalright

 

[Ashley Schaeffer]

Who's to say any players 'best days are ahead of them'?

Out of everyone on your list , other than players who made their debut under Kearney i'd say every single player has regressed. Which is very telling.

Mannah for instance, was a better player 2 years ago then he is now. Even players like Alllgood who Debuted under SK have gone backwards. Sandow, Roberts, Poore, Burt, Tonga, Mortimer, Robson, Moi Moi, Ben Smith, Shackleton, Lasalo. Name one of them that has improved under Kearney.

The only players you can even make a case for having improved are Kelly, Sio, Morgan, Blair and Ryan. But I wouldn't really call moving up to 1st grade improving under a coach. Who knows what they're capable of given the regression in other players, including current internationals.
Oh and Matt Keating , who's game has improved from about 3 out of 10 to 5 out of 10, yet the dumbass coach thinks he's an 80min gun who's captaincy material.
Both our attack and defence didn't suffer 1 little bit from M Keating not being there Friday night. A guy in his 2nd game has at least the capabilities of a guy the coach thinks is the future of the club. No idea at all, it's time for the coach to go.

 

[Eels Dude]

Gee you've impressed me with two posts in the space of two days Ashley. It looks like when you don't constantly post about Burt you actually know your stuff. Bravo and agree.

 

[Utey]

I agree, shame about the Burt bashing because you make some great points.

 

[Maroubra Eel]

Great post Ashley. Your post is unfortunately true.

 

[Tommy Coco]

under Kearney i'd say every single player has regressed. Which is very telling.

Mannah for instance, was a better player 2 years ago then he is now. Even players like Alllgood who Debuted under SK have gone backwards. Sandow, Roberts, Poore, Burt, Tonga, Mortimer, Robson, Moi Moi, Ben Smith, Shackleton, Lasalo. Name one of them that has improved under Kearney....

...Both our attack and defence didn't suffer 1 little bit from M Keating not being there Friday night. A guy in his 2nd game has at least the capabilities of a guy the coach thinks is the future of the club. No idea at all, it's time for the coach to go.

I'm positive by nature when it comes to the eels, but surely you are the polar opposite. No the team isn't winning but you are over inflating the issues

Mannah played SOO last year, this year has some documented off field issues.
Allgood, continues to improve, besides 2 error ridden games (playing the ball) is making coniual improvment IMO
Sandow, playing in a beaten team he will get there, this I am sure of.
Roberts, is exacting the same as when he was at the bulldogs.
Poore, playing best season for the eels so far IMO.
Burt, retiring FFS, he is kicking 90+%.
Tonga, played 4 games...?
Mortz, playing as good now as he was in '10 & '11.
Robson, playing as good now as he was in '10 & '11 just in a winning team.
Moi Moi, best forward we have, age is catching though.
B Smith, played 4 games...?
Shack, did not improved or "regress" in his time with the eels
Lasalo, actually had a good game couple of weeks back and has been solid for Wenty where he should be with the other back rowers in front of him.

Those players you say have improved have done so, including M Keating. Our team is missing consistency in the side being picked. I mentioned in another thread that I couldnt think of two weeks running where the same 1-17 run out. Having Hayne missing for more games then not hurts too.