Redcliffe put their hand up

[LeagueXIII]

Firstly; that's not true. In the early years they would have been doing well to average 2.5-3k if were called the Queanbeyan/Canberra Blues, and the jump in support during the golden age probably wouldn't have seen them crack 10kish.

Secondly; banking on being successful early on to build a fan base is just a very bad business plan, because chances are that you won't be really successful early on.

Thirdly; don't fall for the red herring. Stick to the point that was being raised and force them to admit, over and over, that allowing the old clubs to keep their old brands when going national is a bad idea. A bad idea that they are only accepting in the Dolphins case because of a misplaced sense of nostalgia.

What you forget when comparing Canberra 1982 to the Meninga years is that suddenly they were on free to air TV with a great reach and suddenly people noticed and thought this team is great to watch. So if they were called the Dung Beetles people would have watched because they were bloody good.

TV/Foxtel is what will drive the Dolphins, so it is important for them to get a decent team and results early. The people will follow. Doesn't matter what they are called. Though I would imagine however follow or know of league in Qld know the Dolphins so they already have a large base to work off.

Why is it always bad for league to have tradition? I never hear AFL talk about changing names like St.Kilda, Hawthorn even North Melbourne. Most clubs suburbs are along Punt Rd.

 

[The Great Dane]

The clubs submission to enter the competition says that a competition will be run to decide on the emblem of the club and would need to meet the approval of the NSWRFL general committee. The same for the design and colours of the jersey. It was intended to include the involvement of the public of Canberra and district.

John McIntyre says the public participation was run through the papers.

What form the competition was I don't know. However the public's opinions were sought.

I told you the history in the post you are quoting...

The competition was a sham, there was no public involvement, the Raiders brand (and the Steelers brand) was come up with by people at the NSWRL, and many of the people involved have admitted as much in interviews since.

If you want a source for that then the best one would be to buy a copy of Absolutely Bleeding Green by David Headon, whom is also the Raiders official club historian.

 

[greenBV4]

Why is it always bad for league to have tradition? I never hear AFL talk about changing names like St.Kilda, Hawthorn even North Melbourne. Most clubs suburbs are along Punt Rd.

Worth throwing out there that Footscray changed to "Western" (also I really dislike vague names like that unless they are the extremity of that direction, western where? *cough* wests tigers)

 

[LeagueXIII]

Worth throwing out there that Footscray changed to "Western" (also I really dislike vague names like that unless they are the extremity of that direction, western where? *cough* wests tigers)

Yes I was aware of that one, discreetly didn't mention it, thanks for objectivity

Though that has been a positive name change it would appear.

 

[LeagueXIII]

I told you the history in the post you are quoting...

The competition was a sham, there was no public involvement, the Raiders brand (and the Steelers brand) was come up with by people at the NSWRL, and many of the people involved have admitted as much in interviews since.

If you want a source for that then the best one would be to buy a copy of Absolutely Bleeding Green by David Headon, whom is also the Raiders official club historian.

My info came from John McIntyre on the DVD and it shows the submission and what the club intended on doing.

What year is that book cover to?

 

[The Great Dane]

What you forget when comparing Canberra 1982 to the Meninga years is that suddenly they were on free to air TV with a great reach and suddenly people noticed and thought this team is great to watch. So if they were called the Dung Beetles people would have watched because they were bloody good.

Uh-huh, but how many people would have become actual fans of the club. You know the only kind of supporters that actually matter to the club; paying customers, not posers that sit at home and watch on TV but never actually spend a cent on the club like 99% of the fans that you are talking about end up being.

Not very many I'd hazard to guess, and most of those people that did watch the club because of it's success would have given up on it as soon as the big names went away and the success dried up (which is exactly what happened to the Raiders in real life BTW).

You still haven't answered what benifit there would be to calling them the Dung beetles (or any other bad brand) and turn away thousands of fans in the beginning, when you could have a better brand and keep those thousands involved with club. No matter what happens like you say if a club has success it will get support like you say, but knowingly choosing to start with a base of less fans when you could change the brand and start with thousands more makes no f**king sense.

TV/Foxtel is what will drive the Dolphins, so it is important for them to get a decent team and results early. The people will follow. Doesn't matter what they are called. Though I would imagine however follow or know of league in Qld know the Dolphins so they already have a large base to work off.

So basically your plan is to hope that they are instantly successful on the field and that that will push growth... That's a terribly risky business plan, what happens if they aren't successful, do we just bankroll them for decades until enough generational support has built up to support the club?

Why is it always bad for league to have tradition? I never hear AFL talk about changing names like St.Kilda, Hawthorn even North Melbourne. Most clubs suburbs are along Punt Rd.

Actually they do, people in AFL land are constantly arguing that smaller clubs in Melbourne need to relocate and stuff like that.

They are also in a completely different situation than the one that the Dolphins are in.

 

[The Great Dane]

My info came from John McIntyre on the DVD and it shows the submission and what the club intended on doing.

Yeah that was a lie that they stuck with for years to make it seem like there was public involvement when there wasn't.

What year is that book cover to?

The book covers the history of RL in the capital region from the early 1900s through every season of the Raiders existence up to 2018.

It was released last year, and it can get a bit propagandaish at points (mainly because the author seems to be terrified of criticising the Raiders about certain things in there history), but it is a good read and the most comprehensive history of Raiders ever produced.

 

[The Great Dane]

Yes I was aware of that one, discreetly didn't mention it, thanks for objectivity

Though that has been a positive name change it would appear.

That's not the only example either, I mean Fitzroy literally changed their mascot from the Gorillas to the Lions simply because they thought it'd be more popular.

NSWRL clubs did similar things back in the day as well.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

Neutral brands are shit as they're starting from scratch. They're heavily reliant on the team being successful from the moment they set foot on the field.

An established brand has a supporter base who will stick by them through thick and thin. Over time it will draw new supporters to the club.

 

[The Mad Hatter]

I told you the history in the post you are quoting...

The competition was a sham, there was no public involvement, the Raiders brand (and the Steelers brand) was come up with by people at the NSWRL, and many of the people involved have admitted as much in interviews since.

If you want a source for that then the best one would be to buy a copy of Absolutely Bleeding Green by David Headon, whom is also the Raiders official club historian.

Hey, thanks for mentioning the book. Just went and bought myself a copy. Updated to 2019 GF too. Ta.

 

[LeagueXIII]

Uh-huh, but how many people would have become actual fans of the club. You know the only kind of supporters that actually matter to the club; paying customers, not posers that sit at home and watch on TV but never actually spend a cent on the club like 99% of the fans that you are talking about end up being.

Not very many I'd hazard to guess, and most of those people that did watch the club because of it's success would have given up on it as soon as the big names went away and the success dried up (which is exactly what happened to the Raiders in real life BTW).

Disagree, attendance in the ground is what 10-15,000 watching on TV 100's thousands. People who live in the area will go to the game yet the supporters outside that area will buy merchandise etc. TV is very important for growing a strong club.

 

[LeagueXIII]

So basically your plan is to hope that they are instantly successful on the field and that that will push growth... That's a terribly risky business plan, what happens if they aren't successful, do we just bankroll them for decades until enough generational support has built up to support the club?

Actually they do, people in AFL land are constantly arguing that smaller clubs in Melbourne need to relocate and stuff like that.

They are also in a completely different situation than the one that the Dolphins are in.

Risky in your eyes, but you're all doom and gloom. That was the strategy of the Storm, to be successful/competitive from the day dot.

I live in Melbourne there is currently ZERO debate on clubs moving, relocating or whatever and it's been this way for sometime. The talk is on the football. I listen to SEN if there was a murmur it would be on this station or in the papers.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

The Storm were bankrolled to the tune of $100 million by News Ltd and the ARLC between 1998-2018. Without that money they would not have been successful on the field and probably would have folded. Any team from Adelaide and Perth will also need to be bankrolled to the tune of $100 million to $200 million over 20 years so it can succeed and survive.

Support for Melbourne is still quite low. The_Wookie said they draw an average of 17,000 viewers on 9Gem in Melbourne. That is woeful for a team that's always in the top 4. The Lions were getting double that in Brisbane when they were at the foot of the ladder.

 

[greenBV4]

Risky in your eyes, but you're all doom and gloom. That was the strategy of the Storm, to be successful/competitive from the day dot.

I live in Melbourne there is currently ZERO debate on clubs moving, relocating or whatever and it's been this way for sometime. The talk is on the football. I listen to SEN if there was a murmur it would be on this station or in the papers.

Thats not true, I hear atleast a few times a year that North Melbourne should pack up and leave for tassie, or that st kilda should go "somewhere" (more on this later) they already relocated 2 clubs interstate which the NRL has never done

I think you'll find as well that the reason there's less relocation talk is because they already have every market covered - where besides tassie would you have them relocate too?

 

[greenBV4]

Support for Melbourne is still quite low. The_Wookie said they draw an average of 17,000 viewers on 9Gem in Melbourne. That is woeful for a team that's always in the top 4. The Lions were getting double that in Brisbane when they were at the foot of the ladder.

We also average around 20,000 to the actual ground, its weird to think there's more people showing up in person than flicking a button on a telly

Wasnt there 96,000 on the main channel the other night? Still not great, and yes it was a final, but shows what the main channel can accomplish - it also needs to be a recurring thing to get people watching week in week out, I thought they had stuffed up and weren't going to show the game when the GEM coverage abruptly cut out after the previous game, is it that hard for Nein to put a channel change banner up? Other sports/networks manage to.

That network has done nothing to help grow the game in Melbourne

 

[Perth Red]

Funny a Perth fan talking about teams failing like reds didn't go belly up in a few years.

funny someone bringing up something from 23 years ago with no relevance to the discussion.

 

[Perth Red]

You are so smart but advocating recreating expansion which has failed before - so that's dumb.
I've always supported 3 teams in Brisbane. There are natural separations which would allow for this; Morton Bay region to north & Ipswich Logan to south (I favor simply Ipswich which will be city's 2nd cbd).
Expansion of 2nd team appealing to same area as existing club has never worked anywhere ever

by the same token Brisbane 2 and Gold Coast also failed, the latter numerous times. So why advocate for more queensland teams? Seems your arguing against yourself lol

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

by the same token Brisbane 2 and Gold Coast also failed, the latter numerous times. So why advocate for more queensland teams? Seems your arguing against yourself lol

Chargers made a profit in 1998. They were cut because News Ltd wanted just one team in south east Queensland.

 

[Get Rid of The Donkeys]

We also average around 20,000 to the actual ground, its weird to think there's more people showing up in person than flicking a button on a telly

Wasnt there 96,000 on the main channel the other night? Still not great, and yes it was a final, but shows what the main channel can accomplish - it also needs to be a recurring thing to get people watching week in week out, I thought they had stuffed up and weren't going to show the game when the GEM coverage abruptly cut out after the previous game, is it that hard for Nein to put a channel change banner up? Other sports/networks manage to.

That network has done nothing to help grow the game in Melbourne

Aren't the majority of Victorians who support the Storm fumbleball fans first, Storm fans second?

I'd say that during the regular season they are too busy attending their favourite AwFuL club or watching them on TV. I've heard they walk over to see the Storm after their AwFuL team's game at 'The G' has. finished

 

[mongoose]

by the same token Brisbane 2 and Gold Coast also failed, the latter numerous times. So why advocate for more queensland teams? Seems your arguing against yourself lol

such a double standard.

"Perth shouldn't have a team because they failed once before"

"But so did a second Brisbane team"

"yeah but but... they don't count, it wasn't there fault" lol