Repression of rugby league : Information to share and discussion.

[madunit]

The data for elite private school rugby league participation in Australia is zero. A competition did exist amongst Elite private schools on Brisbane from the 1930. (ceased in 1947) But zilch anywhere else in Australian elite private schools. Mind you other codes are being played. (Union ofcourse, soccer, AFL etc)

That's an issue for the school, not the game of Rugby League.

Sydney University had a team in the top level of the game from 1920-1938 and the team still exists to this day, playing games regularly, so I argue that the participation rate is not 'zilch'. It may not be high, but it's not zilch.

Check out their Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/SydneyUniRugbyLeague/

In the 20's and 30's they often played an interstate match against Brisbane Universities.

A look on my website shows that Australia and England have had a number of University teams playing in various competitions, in both amateur and professional competitions.
http://www.rugbyleagueproject.org/search/?q=universit

 

[Stallion]

That's the key word to start with.
already discussed above.
This has been recognised by the RLIF and they are working on a range of new contests to get more international sides playing more regularly.
Greed v Tradition. In the end, both lost. Super League though served a purpose of dragging the game into current times. There were mistakes and the whole thing was atrociously handled. Super League though were confident given how widely they were accepted and introduced in other countries, including England.
evidence of the NRL and RFL looking after their pockets first
That cross promotion between AFL and cricket has to happen though, given they share venues. The only games RL shares venues with are fierce rivals Soccer and Rugby Union. A relationship with Aleague sides may be useful, but that would only serve to help the Aleague, not the NRL. Which sports could RL cross-promote with?
Elite private schools aren't public, so the decisions as to which sports are played there is one for each individual school. You can't force someone to run their business in a way that suits you,
I think that while this may help to reduce the number of off-field incidents, it comes with other issues, such as lack of exposure for the game which means a drop in advertising/revenue and likely a reduction in player salaries as a result. This would then see codes paying more for elite athletes to be a better alternative without having to work a Monday to Friday job. This will then lead to an exodus of players. Furthermore, this is an old Rugby Union idealogoy and one we should steer clear of, given that it only served to make Australian RU what is (or isn't) today..

I'm happy to have a reasonable discussion about the game with anyone. Enjoy your cruise.

Think you missed the player welfare point . By playing rugbybleague (the most physical of all football codes) it should necessarily play senior local games on a Saturday. This gives a day recovery for players for work on Monday. The exodus of players from rugbybleague can be linked to the day of play which can impact work commitments. Remembering if any code deserves a day recovery after playing it's rugbybleague. ( the physically hardest and toughest of the lot )

 

[Timmah]

That's an issue for the school, not the game of Rugby League.

Sydney University had a team in the top level of the game from 1920-1938 and the team still exists to this day, playing games regularly, so I argue that the participation rate is not 'zilch'. It may not be high, but it's not zilch.

Check out their Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/SydneyUniRugbyLeague/

In the 20's and 30's they often played an interstate match against Brisbane Universities.

A look on my website shows that Australia and England have had a number of University teams playing in various competitions, in both amateur and professional competitions.
http://www.rugbyleagueproject.org/search/?q=universit

Adding to this - SURFLC have actually regrown so well they're re-entering the NSWRL this year, and will be fielding a team in the Sydney Shield competition. As I understand they will feed up to Newtown in the Intrust Super Premiership (who are Cronulla's NRL feeder club).

 

[Stallion]

If the data doesn't exist then you can't make blanket statements in either direction that support or oppose your point. It's not terribly instructive to have that discussion without that data.

Regardless - as @madunit pointed out, elite private schools will choose to run the programs they see fit and have demand for, nobody can force them to do anything.

If the data doesn't exist then you can't make blanket statements in either direction that support or oppose your point. It's not terribly instructive to have that discussion without that data.

Regardless - as @madunit pointed out, elite private schools will choose to run the programs they see fit and have demand for, nobody can force them to do anything.

Ok. So we have a world whereby their exist no rugby league to play in elite private schools with other codes gaining a presence! In the public and general Catholic all codes are seen as a choice (no complaints from this guy ) However elite private schools continue on without rugbyleague and its seen as a non-issue for the code of rugby league . I have a different reading on this than you. One sport isn't gaining a universal presence and others are. To my eyes that's not fair or equitable . (in a big way!) You disagree. I think it's unfair!

 

[Pommy]

Ok. So we have a world whereby their exist no rugby league to play in elite private with other codes gaining a presence! In the public and general Catholic all codes are seen as a choice (no complaints from this guy ) However elite private schools continue on without rugbybleague and its seen as a non-issue for the code of rugby league . I have a different reading on this than you. One sport isn't gaining a universal presence and others are. You. my eyes that's not fair or equitable . (in a big way!) You disagree. I think it's unfair!

It’s perfectly fair as it’s their business, you can’t force someone to do what you want. That wouldn’t be fair.

 

[Timmah]

Ok. So we have a world whereby their exist no rugby league to play in elite private with other codes gaining a presence!

Can you please provide a source for this claim?

In the public and general Catholic all codes are seen as a choice (no complaints from this guy ) However elite private schools continue on without rugbybleague and its seen as a non-issue for the code of rugby league . I have a different reading on this than you. One sport isn't gaining a universal presence and others are. You. my eyes that's not fair or equitable . (in a big way!) You disagree. I think it's unfair!

Generalisations don't help debate, as suggested please back up your claim, or refrain from presenting opinions as fact.

 

[Stallion]

Can you please provide a source for this claim?


Generalisations don't help debate, as suggested please back up your claim, or refrain from presenting opinions as fact.

What if they are fact!?

 

[Timmah]

What if they are fact!?

Then you are required to post evidence to support that claim, as you have been instructed in the past.

 

[madunit]

Think you missed the player welfare point . By playing rugbybleague (the most physical of all football codes) it should necessarily play senior local games on a Saturday. This gives a day recovery for players for work on Monday. The exodus of players from rugbybleague can be linked to the day of play which can impact work commitments. Remembering if any code deserves a day recovery after playing it's rugbybleague. ( the physically hardest and toughest of the lot )

I understand the welfare point, but improved medical science and facilities has been able to assist players every week anyways. The prevalance or severity of injuries is a constant. Working monday to friday could serve to exacerbate injuries, whereas under the current system, players can get rest and medical treatment during the week. Something the couldn't do if they had a 9-5 Mon to Fri job.

 

[madunit]

Ok. So we have a world whereby their exist no rugby league to play in elite private schools with other codes gaining a presence! In the public and general Catholic all codes are seen as a choice (no complaints from this guy ) However elite private schools continue on without rugbyleague and its seen as a non-issue for the code of rugby league . I have a different reading on this than you. One sport isn't gaining a universal presence and others are. To my eyes that's not fair or equitable . (in a big way!) You disagree. I think it's unfair!

Mate, we cannot force a private enterprise to do what we want. They run their schools/businesses how they see fit. Yes it sucks for Rugby League, but it hasn't actually hurt the game has it. Look at RL and RU in Australia. If Private schools are so important, why is RU trailing so far behind RL in Australia?

If this were an issue with public schools, then yes, that needs to be addressed. But as you rightly state, it isn't.

Do you think you can go to Pizza Hut and demand them to cook you a Taco and they have to make it? Of course not. You want a Taco, you go to a Mexican restaurant.

Private schools are the same. They can do what they want. If you want choices and freedom, you go to a non-private school.

It's only unfair if there was no alternative's available. But as you correctly stated, there are alternatives.

 

[Stallion]

I understand the welfare point, but improved medical science and facilities has been able to assist players every week anyways. The prevalance or severity of injuries is a constant. Working monday to friday could serve to exacerbate injuries, whereas under the current system, players can get rest and medical treatment during the week. Something the couldn't do if they had a 9-5 Mon to Fri job.

Speaking to my local physio whom treats our local District club. He assures me that playing Saturdays is much more preferable for recovery purposes compared to rugbybleague on a Sunday.

 

[madunit]

Speaking to my local physio whom treats our local District club. He assures me that playing Saturdays is much more preferable for recovery purposes compared to rugbybleague on a Sunday.

It probably is, but working 9-5 Monday to Friday will not help with injury management and recovery times. It could in fact worsen them. I'm not opposing you for the sake of an argument, more just trying to help you (and myself I guess) evolve your opinion to be more encompassing of all sides of the issue.

Quite simply, there has been no genuine scientific study or research done on this matter, thus it's purely your opinion vs mine.

Both are leigitimate but neither are facts and thus, we can't really use it as a subject about poor management or repression of the game.

I think we can both see and agree to that.

 

[Stallion]

Then you are required to post evidence to support that claim, as you have been instructed in the past.

As per instruction I've managed to find some sources which indicates rugby league's lack of presence in elite private schools. https//www.school. comment. au>sport. 16May2018: "Rugby in for fight as league makes historic foray into key school....."
For whatever reason I was not able to open this article however the title indicates 'historic foray' which is telltale in itself. Also notice that the title mentions 'a fight' And ofcourse the subservient referencing of rugby league as' league' and union as 'rugby' shows a bias toward union in nomenclature terms by the scribe. (acknowledging that this seems to be more common these days which is a concern in itself!)

 

[Timmah]

As per instruction I've managed to find some sources which indicates rugby league's lack of presence in elite private schools. https//www.school. comment. au>sport. 16May2018: "Rugby in for fight as league makes historic foray into key school....."
For whatever reason I was not able to open this article however the title indicates 'historic foray' which is telltale in itself. Also notice that the title mentions 'a fight' And ofcourse the subservient referencing of rugby league as' league' and union as 'rugby' shows a bias toward union in nomenclature terms by the scribe. (acknowledging that this seems to be more common these days which is a concern in itself!)

The link for the article to which you refer is here: https://www.smh.com.au/sport/rugby-...c-foray-into-key-schools-20180516-p4zfp2.html

It clearly states that league has already been in many elite private schools in some capacity, and points to a full-on expansion by league into those places.

So indeed it's proving the opposite of your point - repression of rugby league in private schools is in fact on the decrease.

 

[Stallion]

It probably is, but working 9-5 Monday to Friday will not help with injury management and recovery times. It could in fact worsen them. I'm not opposing you for the sake of an argument, more just trying to help you (and myself I guess) evolve your opinion to be more encompassing of all sides of the issue.

Quite simply, there has been no genuine scientific study or research done on this matter, thus it's purely your opinion vs mine.

Both are leigitimate but neither are facts and thus, we can't really use it as a subject about poor management or repression of the game.

I think we can both see and agree to that.

Most people(myself included)work 9 to 5pm. Rugby league as a sport should identify what its players prefer and deserve. In Newcastle, their has been a steady decline in participation numbers since the 1970s onwards. This has coincided with the District competition electing to play Sunday fixtures from 1970 onwards. By the late 1970s the local juniors in the area I live in started to migrate to union en masse every year at the age of 13/14/15. I would quiz the local junior people as to why this happens? And they could not provide me a reason for this. I decided to look at the history of the district competition and the change in junior flow on/migration coincided with the entrenchment of District footy being played on Sundays. It became a dual edged sword: The local boys wanted local relevance and social connection so Saturday game days were preferable and this was provided by other codes, especially union, and players that worked from Monday to Friday required a day of rest and recovery after a game. Such rest and recovery was and is still available to such participants in local union and the "growing" Lower Hunter RL comp(2nd div-played on Saturdays). In contrast the local district club that still play half of their home games on Sundays, still struggles to attract an under 19s team(3 local junior players) whilst the local rugby union club has numbers to accommodate 3 teams of under19s.(these union players are given game rosters each season and wait their turn to play)
BTW: Are you aware that the Saturday playing Lower Hunter Rugby league is the largest domestic rugby league competition in club/team numbers in the world?(Not many people do!)

 

[Stallion]

The link for the article to which you refer is here: https://www.smh.com.au/sport/rugby-...c-foray-into-key-schools-20180516-p4zfp2.html

It clearly states that league has already been in many elite private schools in some capacity, and points to a full-on expansion by league into those places.

So indeed it's proving the opposite of your point - repression of rugby league in private schools is in fact on the decrease.

I certainly hope so! As it stands its not a good thing for rugby league. If we both agree that more rugby league being played is a good thing, we are on the right track. Just hope these are not token gestures to placate a growing concern that this lack of rugby league presence continues on in the elite private school sector.
BTW: I'm aware of the previous discourse in this website(dating back to 2001) and noted some really good arguments and facts. Many I identify with.
PS:I was intending to conduct a thesis on the very topic:" The lack of rugby league in elite private schools of NSW" with the sports lecturer I know(David Rowe) as an external supervisor. Unfortunately, I could not find a supervisor at my local University to sponsor my thesis.

 

[Stallion]

That's an issue for the school, not the game of Rugby League.

Sydney University had a team in the top level of the game from 1920-1938 and the team still exists to this day, playing games regularly, so I argue that the participation rate is not 'zilch'. It may not be high, but it's not zilch.

Check out their Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/SydneyUniRugbyLeague/

In the 20's and 30's they often played an interstate match against Brisbane Universities.

A look on my website shows that Australia and England have had a number of University teams playing in various competitions, in both amateur and professional competitions.
http://www.rugbyleagueproject.org/search/?q=universit

In my university rugby league playing days, I met the organiser of the Sydney University rugby league. A lovely bloke ! However completely subservient and compliant toward the all powerful union club at Sydney University. I recall that my days of my first degree at Newcastle University in which I was the rugby league clubs public relations officer, we grew from 1 and half teams in 1992 to pushing 4 teams by 1995/96. Unfortunately local league rules stuffed up our growth and we had to hover on 3 teams. (Now its two: ladies league tag & a men's team in the LHRL) I also recall a rugby union guy(private school educated) abusing me one night for not doing the stuff I did for rugby league for the union club! I replied "Union is not my game mate!"

 

[madunit]

Most people(myself included)work 9 to 5pm. Rugby league as a sport should identify what its players prefer and deserve. In Newcastle, their has been a steady decline in participation numbers since the 1970s onwards. This has coincided with the District competition electing to play Sunday fixtures from 1970 onwards. By the late 1970s the local juniors in the area I live in started to migrate to union en masse every year at the age of 13/14/15. I would quiz the local junior people as to why this happens? And they could not provide me a reason for this. I decided to look at the history of the district competition and the change in junior flow on/migration coincided with the entrenchment of District footy being played on Sundays. It became a dual edged sword: The local boys wanted local relevance and social connection so Saturday game days were preferable and this was provided by other codes, especially union, and players that worked from Monday to Friday required a day of rest and recovery after a game. Such rest and recovery was and is still available to such participants in local union and the "growing" Lower Hunter RL comp(2nd div-played on Saturdays). In contrast the local district club that still play half of their home games on Sundays, still struggles to attract an under 19s team(3 local junior players) whilst the local rugby union club has numbers to accommodate 3 teams of under19s.(these union players are given game rosters each season and wait their turn to play)
BTW: Are you aware that the Saturday playing Lower Hunter Rugby league is the largest domestic rugby league competition in club/team numbers in the world?(Not many people do!)

These are all fair points. While there may be a correlation to Sunday games and a downward trend in playing numbers is too hard to confirm or deny. I cannot argue either way on that matter sorry.

It is definitely worth further analysis and in-depth research. I played junior footy in the bush and it was always on Sunday's. The team I play for folded last year (20 years after I last played for them), but that was due to a lack of funds and a reduction in player numbers. Rugby Union has never been played in that town, while AFL has been growing the whole time.

I think (my opinion only) that the competitions outside the NRL have been largely left to their own devices since the Super League war, with little assistance provided by the NRL.

Perhaps the moving of games to Sunday's was done as a cost-cutting exercise? With so many sports being played on Saturday's as opposed to Sunday's, venues may charge a higher rate for the premium Saturday to maximise their profits. League clubs may have chosen to play on Sunday's to minimise expenses given they are probably running on tighter budgets now.? That is purely an idea or suggestion, but by no means is there any evidence behind such a thing. Just an example of an outside influence that may have forced that decision.

It definitely warrants an open-minded, unbiased investigation though.

 

[Timmah]

I certainly hope so! As it stands its not a good thing for rugby league. If we both agree that more rugby league being played is a good thing, we are on the right track. Just hope these are not token gestures to placate a growing concern that this lack of rugby league presence continues on in the elite private school sector.

The article speaks of the change from rugby league being ad-hoc in those elite schools to now having organised seasons and inter-school competitions. So I'm confident in saying it's more than a token gesture.

 

[madunit]

In my university rugby league playing days, I met the organiser of the Sydney University rugby league. A lovely bloke ! However completely subservient and compliant toward the all powerful union club at Sydney University. I recall that my days of my first degree at Newcastle University in which I was the rugby league clubs public relations officer, we grew from 1 and half teams in 1992 to pushing 4 teams by 1995/96. Unfortunately local league rules stuffed up our growth and we had to hover on 3 teams. (Now its two: ladies league tag & a men's team in the LHRL) I also recall a rugby union guy(private school educated) abusing me one night for not doing the stuff I did for rugby league for the union club! I replied "Union is not my game mate!"

I think you need to look at a bigger picture mate.

Rugby League at Universities isn't that much of an issue. The students are adults and can play for whatever Rugby League team they want. Sure it's helpful if Uni's have League teams, but it's not vital.

Having the game in schools is more important, as that's where the initial skills and passion for the game begins. Get them early, look after them, nurture them, they'll stay with the game for life.

Trying to attract adults to the code who never really followed it, or were brought up on it is a vastly harder and less successful approach.