Retention?

[Drew-Sta]

Yes please; can you send the full DB?

 

[Goldthorpe]

Sent!

 

[perverse]

I think you have way, way, way rushed this salary formula through without too much thought, Bushman.

Any system where Tyrone Roberts is my second highest paid player has issues. Taumololo (a 9/7 forward) is about half the price of Roberts. The statistics need to be weighted depending on their position - just taking an average of the 4 key stats is insufficient because the sim doesn't treat all positions and stats equally.

An easy way to fix the formula would be to take an average of only their relevant stats (so only players that can play in the halves have their kicking taken into account), and reducing the value of goalkicking substantially across the board (as it's not as important as the other 3 stats in anyones language).

Forwards in particular (even insane ones) are coming out way too cheap, because they can't kick - which is irrelevant to the sim if memory serves.

I feel stupid posting this, because my team should absolutely dominate under these circumstances, but I'd prefer an even comp. I'm quite happy to sit on my throne of forwards if we can't be bothered changing it at this point. Having said all of this - there aren't many people familiar enough with the sim that can actually make accurate weightings for the positions statistics. You and Mr. C come immediately to mind.

 

[Shaun Hewitt]

In my team, Luke Brooks makes nearly 4 times than Manu Vatuvei
Yet to debut Jayden Nikorima is getting more than Edrick Lee and Manu Vatuvei put together, or Ben Matulino by himself

Some odd ones.

 

[Drew-Sta]

perverse, Shaun

These are indeed concerns and I feel like I should recut it. Can I propose:

1 = Atk, kick, GK
2 = Atk, Def, GK
3 = Atk, def, GK
6 = Atk, Def, GK, Kick
7= Atk, Def, GK, Kick
8 = Atk, Def
9 = Atk, Def, Kick
11 = atk, def
13 = atk, def, kick

Thoughts?

 

[Misanthrope]

That makes sense to me. No world should have Scott Dureau as a high salary player.

 

[Misanthrope]

Further to that, don't disregard temp as an important stat. It dictates both handling errors and penalties conceded.

 

[perverse]

I think that's more in the ballpark, Drew - but I'd treat GK in its own little bucket outside of the averages somehow. I don't have much time to think about how the formula could function here at work, will give it a bit more thought when I get home.

I just don't feel that GK should be weighted in with the rest of the stats... but how to make it reflect fairly in the formula is a bit of a mystery. It's possible we could just put some hard costings on GK ability - i.e a 10 GK adds $100k to their price, 9 adds $80k etc. I'm not really sure, I need to have a play with the numbers a bit.

Agree that temp should be brought into the equation, too.

Thinking about it more, what we need is a simply multiplier per stat for each position depending on how important it is to them. So something like...

For halves - (Attack * 1) + (Defense * 0.7) + (Kicking * 1.2) + (Temperment * 1) + (Goalkicking * 0.5) / 5 = stat average
For forwards - (Attack * 1.1) + (Defense * 1.3) + (Kicking * 0.1) + (Temperment * 1) + (Goalkicking * 0.5) / 5 = stat average

etc, etc. Note these numbers are pulled cleanly out of my arsehole and are just an example. As I said, the best people to set those multipliers will be the ones most familiar with what the sim values for each position. In a perfect world, the players wouldn't be aware of the exact formulae either... but I'm not sure how practical that is here, particularly given that the managers of the sim also participate.

Then use your pay tiers to work out the rest. We'd obviously need a new "range" created for the tiers based on the max and min possible. Tbh it's similar to how those CPI player ratings work IRL. (i think it's called CPI?).

 

[Drew-Sta]

I can include temp; that's not a problem. Temp for all players.

Perverse, I'll try to work out some way to incorporate GK.

I'm hesitant to up weight or down weight the actual stats according to position. It will see us play players out of their actual positions more, I think.

 

[perverse]

I can include temp; that's not a problem. Temp for all players.

Perverse, I'll try to work out some way to incorporate GK.

I'm hesitant to up weight or down weight the actual stats according to position. It will see us play players out of their actual positions more, I think.

If it does see that happen, the sim will punish them for it. I didn't see it mentioned in the FFBFL rules for order submissions, but players are penalised through form and injury for playing too far out of position (I believe each position has 1 or 2 secondary positions they can play without issue). At least, this is how the ASRL sim works... and I assume we're using the same software here.

If you play your fullback at prop because of his stats, he will most certainly get injured or see a drastic reduction in form. If you're not managing your form and injuries correctly, you will get eaten alive by those that do. I can't imagine this being any more of an issue with the stats weighted (only for salary calculation), and I just don't see an alternative to weighting given that certain stats are more important than others in many positions.

 

[Drew-Sta]

More that we'll find ways to cheat the cap i.e. simply hire wingers to play the backline due to them being cheaper but as effective as a FB and centre.

 

[Drew-Sta]

1 = Atk, kick, temp
2 = Atk, Def, temp
3 = Atk, def, temp
6 = Atk, Def, temp, Kick
7= Atk, Def, temp, Kick
8 = Atk, Def, temp
9 = Atk, Def, Kick, temp
11 = atk, def, temp
13 = atk, def, kick, temp

GK

1 = 0.25
2 = 0.5

and so on.

Whatever the GK is, is added at the end to the average.

Thoughts?

 

[Misanthrope]

Correct. Players have three positions they can play at 'full capacity'. Anything outside of that sees them penalised on form. An in form prop can still dominate on the wing, but they'll never outplay a comparable stat and form winger/fullback/centre.

 

[Misanthrope]

How we did it in the past was to rate based on attack and defense.

GK/Kick/Temp of 8 was +20k, 9 was +50k, and 10 was +100k.

Utilities were also worth an extra $50,000

 

[perverse]

More that we'll find ways to cheat the cap i.e. simply hire wingers to play the backline due to them being cheaper but as effective as a FB and centre.

I just don't see how this would be a problem, it's something that happens already (through necessity given the amount of injuries the sim always dishes out) - and if we're fair dinkum with the ratings then players in similar positions will have similar enough weighting to their stats anyway - and should come out at similar prices. A fullback and a winger and a centre are going to have much closer weightings (as they should) than a prop, for example.

I just think the weightings are mostly self-governing as long as we don't make the weightings too extreme. If people can "game" the system by getting an extra 5% of performance out of their squad by playing players exclusively out of position, then that's really their prerogative and they should be allowed to do that. You'll get better results long term by running players in their correct positions, or as close as possible. The sim ensures it, and favours players that are in their natural position/s.

Looking across the squads now... how many people are even playing a real Lock in their Lock position? I see lots of hookers, a utility, a second rower... absolutely bugger all real locks... so I mean it's already happening, and is hardly a concern. The squad I've inherited doesn't even have a real #13 in it at all. A lot of people seem to already be in on the "second rowers make great centres" scheme, too. At the moment, I'd probably have more bang for my buck playing Jason Taumalolo and George Burgess at halfback than Tyrone Roberts, even with the position disadvantages taken into account.

Honestly I think the system is more exploitable for playing players out of position if we *don't* weight the stats, than if we do.

 

[Drew-Sta]

Makes sense conceptually.

Do we all agree? If so, I'll recut the numbers tonight or tomorrow morning.

 

[Shaun Hewitt]

I agree with this,
But if we re-do numbers - I suggest we get an extra day or two to revise our squad before the draft begins

 

[Drew-Sta]

I think that's pretty fair, Shaun.

 

[Misanthrope]

Seems fair to me. I don't foresee it having a huge effect on people's decisions (the players kept versus those let go seem pretty obvious in their reasoning), but extra time is fine.

 

[Bazal]

Just saw your email bushy. I'll give it another go, now that I'm out of Asrl if the knights are still free....might need a few days to have a look at everything though.